Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by acottawa

Sounds very Soviet. Create a Potemkin customs post to show off to Western dignitaries.

Well, we do have to do our best to conform to the US Republican narrative regarding the Canadian communist state.

[dleung]

Originally Posted by Acajack

This assumes there is zero demand for customs service in French at YOW, which is obviously false.

One minute you were arguing 75% isn't enough, now you're fighting some 0% strawman?

Originally Posted by Acajack

I am not the one who started it, but I am certainly not going to let this BS slide.

No it's not about Bill 101 at all, it's about the federal Official Languages Act.

Stay in the slow lane if you can't keep up with the traffic.

It's not about the federal act if you have a problem with Ottawa at 75% but not Vancouver at 5% lol

Your new email signature is as personal as the last one - a retort to some anglophone along the lines of "french can't be 'useless' if we make it a 'job requirement'!"

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by dleung

It's not about the federal act if you have a problem with Ottawa at 75% but not Vancouver at 5% lol
:

You're still misunderstanding how this stuff works.

[MonctonRad]

A recent article in the New York Times. I invite Acajack's (and Lio's comments.

A Language Bill Deepens a Culture Clash in Quebec
The government calls the new measure necessary for the survival of French, while critics say it stigmatizes bilingualism and is bad for business.
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/10/09/world...user_id=170351171ff2062029926a9bc07feef2

Since Aude Le Dubé opened an English-only bookshop in Montreal last year, she has had several unwelcome guests each month: Irate Francophones, sometimes draped in Quebec flags, who storm in and berate her for not selling books in French.

“You would think I had opened a sex shop at the Vatican,” mused Ms. Le Dubé, a novelist from Brittany, France, and an ardent F. Scott Fitzgerald fan.

You would think that a bookshop could be considered a "cultural institution", and thus exempt from harassment like this, but I guess not in Quebec........

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

A recent article in the New York Times. I invite Acajack's (and Lio's comments.

A Language Bill Deepens a Culture Clash in Quebec
The government calls the new measure necessary for the survival of French, while critics say it stigmatizes bilingualism and is bad for business.
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/10/09/world...user_id=170351171ff2062029926a9bc07feef2



You would think that a bookshop could be considered a "cultural institution", and thus exempt from harassment like this, but I guess not in Quebec........

I don't think there is any status that would make someone "exempt" from harassment. Stupidity knows no bounds and abides by no rules.

That said, allow me to express some doubt that she gets consistently harassed several times a month as she alleges. There are English bookstores all over Montreal and even in other regions of Quebec. They're part of the scenery and always have been, just like there are a bunch of English radio stations on your radio dial in southern Quebec as you scan through the various frequencies in your car. They've always been there.

Do I believe that it's happened before? Yes. Do I believe that it's happened more than once? Sure.

But on a fairly regular basis? I am pretty skeptical of that.

It's like the people who say they're almost afraid to leave the leave the house out of a fear that they'll be called some type of intolerant slur, because it can happen almost every day.

Well I know people from minorities (of all kinds BTW, racial, religious, sexual, linguistic) who are close to me and whom I trust as perfectly honest who say this stuff basically *never* happens.

My guess is that the reality probably lies somewhere in between these two points of view.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by Acajack

This assumes there is zero demand for customs service in French at YOW, which is obviously false.

I don't think it assumes that at all. MonctonRad was proposing an all-bilingual operation, whether the numbers warranted it or not to "show off" the capital. If you say you can't get French services at the Ottawa airport I believe you, but I find it puzzling that 75% of the staff cannot service 10% of the customer base. That, to me, sounds like a management problem rather than a bilingualism problem, particularly when the first point of contact is a machine.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by acottawa

MonctonRad was proposing an all-bilingual operation, whether the numbers warranted it or not to "show off" the capital.

That's not precisely what I said. What I meant is that francophone citizens of Canada should have an expectation of service in their language in the NCR. They are after all full citizens of the federation and should be treated accordingly.

There are probably workarounds that would allow for unilingual anglophones to continue working as customs agents (for example), and your idea of using data entry terminals to stream French speakers to bilingual agents is a good one, but things like this add complexity to the equation. Appropriate staffing levels would have to be continually monitored and adjusted. It would not be fair if anglophones can sail through customs in five minutes, but their French speaking co-citizens had to wait 15 minutes.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

That's not precisely what I said. What I meant is that francophone citizens of Canada should have an expectation of service in their language in the NCR. They are after all full citizens of the federation and should be treated accordingly.

There are probably workarounds that would allow for unilingual anglophones to continue working as customs agents (for example), and your idea of using data entry terminals to stream French speakers to bilingual agents is a good one, but things like this add complexity to the equation. Appropriate staffing levels would have to be continually monitored and adjusted. It would not be fair if anglophones can sail through customs in five minutes, but their French speaking co-citizens had to wait 15 minutes.

This makes sense.

Your point that Ottawa (including its airport) should be a poster child for fairly seamless equivalent (in terms of quality, efficiency and timeliness) service in both languages is what the goal should be.

How many bilingual employees this requires (whether it's 50%, 75% or 100%) and how and whether unilingual employees either anglophone or even francophone fit into that is internal plumbing and of secondary importance to the top-level goal.

Their job should be to make it happen and sort out the backroom mechanics to ensure it does.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

That's not precisely what I said. What I meant is that francophone citizens of Canada should have an expectation of service in their language in the NCR. They are after all full citizens of the federation and should be treated accordingly.

There are probably workarounds that would allow for unilingual anglophones to continue working as customs agents (for example), and your idea of using data entry terminals to stream French speakers to bilingual agents is a good one, but things like this add complexity to the equation. Appropriate staffing levels would have to be continually monitored and adjusted. It would not be fair if anglophones can sail through customs in five minutes, but their French speaking co-citizens had to wait 15 minutes.

That would not likely happen in practice as many bilingual francophones would move to the English queues to save time.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

That would not likely happen in practice as many bilingual francophones would move to the English queues to save time.

But that still would represent a "bug" in the system.

When you cross the border into Canada at the 1000 Islands Bridge, there is always at least one lane that says "bilingual agent", but I don't necessarily go there. I go for the one that is shortest or moving fastest.

Besides, when I've ended up at the "bilingual agent" window, I've been met with a very timid "hi, bawn-jewer" that didn't give me confidence that the person would be able to transact in French effectively anyway.

I don't think it's a big deal because Loyalist Southeastern Ontario isn't in the mindspace where I'd psychologically expect service in French in my own country, even from the feds. My guess is that most francophones probably feel the same.

Ottawa airport definitely is, though.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by Acajack

BBesides, when I've ended up at the "bilingual agent" window, I've been met with a very timid "hi, bawn-jewer" that didn't give me confidence that the person would be able to transact in French effectively anyway.

This sort of condescension is why Anglophones don't bother learning or carrying on with French - Francophones always, always, always have a supposed standard that's too high for FSL learners, and they're never good enough no matter how hard they try. They'll never be good enough in the eyes of most and thus give up entirely.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by JHikka

This sort of condescension is why Anglophones don't bother learning or carrying on with French - Francophones always, always, always have a supposed standard that's too high for FSL learners, and they're never good enough no matter how hard they try. They'll never be good enough in the eyes of most and thus give up entirely.

In fairness (to myself!) I can confirm that I do soldier on in French 100% of the time in those cases in a place like Ottawa.

[YOWflier]

So you were served in the language of your choice. What's your complaint exactly? It wasn't linguist grade French?

[YOWflier]

The keen observer will notice that MonctonRad makes a post suggesting that the "NCR" be the poster child for bilingualism etc., and in response Acajack mentions Ottawa. He lives across in Gatineau. The omission of the latter in his response is not a mistake.

The subsequent post is quite telling, too, in that the notion of "confidence" comes into play.

- CBSA agents aren't all bilingual!
- Did you try at one point and the person couldn't communicate with you?
- No, because confidence
- So what's the complaint again?
- BURDEN
- OK

Originally Posted by JHikka

This sort of condescension is why Anglophones don't bother learning or carrying on with French - Francophones always, always, always have a supposed standard that's too high for FSL learners, and they're never good enough no matter how hard they try. They'll never be good enough in the eyes of most and thus give up entirely.

This is true. And even with linguist grade French, as I frequently heard when I worked in Montreal, "ultimately, you'll be judged by your name". I don't know if that's the prevailing opinion over there, but I heard it more than once.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by FlyYOW

The keen observer will notice that MonctonRad makes a post suggesting that the "NCR" be the poster child for bilingualism etc., and in response Acajack mentions Ottawa. He lives across in Gatineau. The omission of the latter in his response is not a mistake.

Well no. I am referring to federal services only. I'd expect federal services in Gatineau to be fully bilingual as well. Which according to all accounts, they are. Better than in Ottawa even.

I don't have the stats on hand but my guess is that in Gatineau what the feds offer is probably 100% compliant. In Ottawa it's probably in the range of 90% with a few lingering problem spots like the airport.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by FlyYOW

This is true. And even with linguist grade French, as I frequently heard when I worked in Montreal, "ultimately, you'll be judged by your name". I don't know if that's the prevailing opinion over there, but I heard it more than once.

If there are any issues at all related to this, they're about accents and not names.

Though even the accent thing can be greatly overblown.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by Acajack

But that still would represent a "bug" in the system.

When you cross the border into Canada at the 1000 Islands Bridge, there is always at least one lane that says "bilingual agent", but I don't necessarily go there. I go for the one that is shortest or moving fastest.

Besides, when I've ended up at the "bilingual agent" window, I've been met with a very timid "hi, bawn-jewer" that didn't give me confidence that the person would be able to transact in French effectively anyway.

I don't think it's a big deal because Loyalist Southeastern Ontario isn't in the mindspace where I'd psychologically expect service in French in my own country, even from the feds. My guess is that most francophones probably feel the same.

Ottawa airport definitely is, though.

Anyone looking for our system to be free of "bugs" is bound to be disappointed. As you indicate, most understand the reality.

[wg_flamip]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I don't think there is any status that would make someone "exempt" from harassment. Stupidity knows no bounds and abides by no rules.

That said, allow me to express some doubt that she gets consistently harassed several times a month as she alleges. There are English bookstores all over Montreal and even in other regions of Quebec. They're part of the scenery and always have been, just like there are a bunch of English radio stations on your radio dial in southern Quebec as you scan through the various frequencies in your car. They've always been there.

Do I believe that it's happened before? Yes. Do I believe that it's happened more than once? Sure.

But on a fairly regular basis? I am pretty skeptical of that.

It's like the people who say they're almost afraid to leave the leave the house out of a fear that they'll be called some type of intolerant slur, because it can happen almost every day.

Well I know people from minorities (of all kinds BTW, racial, religious, sexual, linguistic) who are close to me and whom I trust as perfectly honest who say this stuff basically *never* happens.

My guess is that the reality probably lies somewhere in between these two points of view.

I wouldn't dismiss her out of hand: People working in customer-facing roles, especially in an easily accessible urban areas, often experience a shocking level of harassment from the public on a frequent basis. Much of that comes from people with mental health and addiction issues, although that's not always easy to tell from behind the counter (nor does it make the experience any less jarring/distressing). This type of harassment really can't be used to gauge the intensity of an issue in the wider social discourse; however, the topic of the harassment doesn't appear out of thin air either.

I worked in customer service and the service industry for about 15 years, much of it in highly frequented central Toronto locations. You would not believe some of the things members of the public said to me, my coworkers and/or other patrons no less how frequently incidents like these occurred. I traded in for a white collar a number of years ago, and I have no doubt that those who spend their days in front of a screen have had little to no exposure to this type of harassment.

[JHikka]

I mean, I was at a pizza place last night and a customer was yelling at the cashier to go back to India and that he was going to call the cops because he charged him too much for a slice of pizza. People with mental illnesses do exist, but there are also just simply assholes amongst us. I shouldn't have to physically stand between an asshole and a cashier until they leave at 10PM on a Tuesday but, well, you know.

If the bookstore were French-only and operating in Vancouver i'm sure Acajack would be calling for a federal inquiry into the treatment of official language minorities in Canada, but since it's just an Anglophone in Montreal she's at worst lying and at best exaggerating. Rinse, wash, repeat. Nothing to see here. How about those not-bilingual-enough border agents in Ontario, though?

[esquire]

Originally Posted by JHikka

I mean, I was at a pizza place last night and a customer was yelling at the cashier to go back to India and that he was going to call the cops because he charged him too much for a slice of pizza. People with mental illnesses do exist, but there are also just simply assholes amongst us. I shouldn't have to physically stand between an asshole and a cashier until they leave at 10PM on a Tuesday but, well, you know.

I'm not taking a side in this bunfight but I will say, this type of toddler-like behaviour by adults is becoming increasingly common. I don't think you can chalk all of it up to mental illness. The standards of decorum are eroding pretty quickly.