Roads/Bridges projects/issues

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by phil235

Not entirely, but basically make the transition to city street at that point, and give the option for higher speed traffic to go onto Riverside

That would require upgrades to Riverside and wouldn't be helpful for those going to/from somewhere west of downtown. Regardless, I do agree that the majority of the traffic should be redirected to Riverside.

I meant that would be if we wanted to re-design and make this a proper street, with multiple pedestrian crossings (as is the case now). I.e. extending the walkable urban core south and including Carleton within it. That way the campus could be integrated into the city, instead of essentially functioning as an island.

Considering Carleton is a traditional, isolated campus (not an urban one like uOttawa), I just don't understand why this would be of significant benefit. It is designed to be self sufficient and walkable within itself.

When looking at my alma mater (UVic), like Carleton, it was isolated from the city and self sufficient, so the need to leave the campus was minimal. If you wanted to go off campus you typically used transit, cycled, or, for the few who owned a car, drove. If anything, Carleton is far better than most traditional universities, since the O-Train goes right through the campus (or will again once Stage 2 South construction is complete), making commuting to school easier.

If you want to make it easier to walk to/from Carleton from/to Old Ottawa South, improved crossings over Bronson are necessary. Widening Bronson to a boulevard won't make it easier to cross. For walkability to/from the Glebe (or the Glebe Annex), improved crossings over the canal are needed (and pathways to connect to them), not improvements to Bronson (Bronson actually angles away from Carleton).

[phil235]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

This will be a challenge given how isolated the campus is from almost everything.

I understand the desire to change this, but the main part of the campus is the furthest away from Old Ottawa South and the Glebe. On all sides, it is separated from the rest of the city by arterial roads, waterways and green space. Nothing is close by. There are few urban amenities within walking distance.

Yeah, zero doubt that this would be a challenge, and it isn't going to happen overnight. I would point out that Bank St. is about a 10 minute walk from Carleton, 15 on the outside. So it really isn't that far to lots of urban amenities.

[phil235]

[QUOTE=roger1818;9426371]

Originally Posted by phil235

Considering Carleton is a traditional, isolated campus (not an urban one like uOttawa), I just don't understand why this would be of significant benefit. It is designed to be self sufficient and walkable within itself.

When looking at my alma mater (UVic), like Carleton, it was isolated from the city and self sufficient, so the need to leave the campus was minimal. If you wanted to go off campus you typically used transit, cycled, or, for the few who owned a car, drove. If anything, Carleton is far better than most traditional universities, since the O-Train goes right through the campus (or will again once Stage 2 South construction is complete), making commuting to school easier.

If you want to make it easier to walk to/from Carleton from/to Old Ottawa South, improved crossings over Bronson are necessary. Widening Bronson to a boulevard won't make it easier to cross. For walkability to/from the Glebe (or the Glebe Annex), improved crossings over the canal are needed (and pathways to connect to them), not improvements to Bronson (Bronson actually angles away from Carleton).

I think that it is always a benefit to have a more integrated city, and extend proper urban design to campuses. The idea of campuses built as islands within ring roads that don't require interaction with their surroundings is not something we should be aspiring to.

I can't agree that Carleton is far better than most traditional universities. It might be decent by the standard of university campuses built in the 60s, but it is definitely not good when compared with traditional schools like McGill, U of T, Queens, Dalhousie etc. Unlike some of the suburban schools from that era, it is well within the core of the city.

As for the boulevard idea, I wasn't suggesting that Bronson be widened. I was suggesting that it be narrowed to 4 lanes, that the lanes be 10' lanes instead of 12' plus to slow traffic, and that the curb lanes become parking that could be used for Carleton and Brewer Park amenities (with the pool and arena being rebuilt close to the street). That would give you space for a nice median, protected bike lanes inside of the parking, and relatively pleasant sidewalks. You would still need Carleton to build up to Bronson, but you put some residences along Bronson with a bit of retail, and you have the makings of a street rather than a stroad.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by phil235

I think that it is always a benefit to have a more integrated city, and extend proper urban design to campuses. The idea of campuses built as islands within ring roads that don't require interaction with their surroundings is not something we should be aspiring to.

I think we will have to agree to disagree on this one. I like the idea of having university campus feel like a campus and not be integrated into the downtown of the city, but that is just my opinion.

I can't agree that Carleton is far better than most traditional universities. It might be decent by the standard of university campuses built in the 60s, but it is definitely not good when compared with traditional schools like McGill, U of T, Queens, Dalhousie etc. Unlike some of the suburban schools from that era, it is well within the core of the city.

AFAIK, all of those are downtown campuses that are integrated with the downtown of the city. By no stretch of the imagination is Carleton in Ottawa's downtown.

As for the boulevard idea, I wasn't suggesting that Bronson be widened. I was suggesting that it be narrowed to 4 lanes, that the lanes be 10' lanes instead of 12' plus to slow traffic, and that the curb lanes become parking that could be used for Carleton and Brewer Park amenities (with the pool and arena being rebuilt close to the street).

Are there plans to demolish and rebuild the Brewer Pool and Arena? Even if there are, I would expect the city would want to move them out of the flood plane. I also don't see how moving them further away from the community is a good thing.

That would give you space for a nice median, protected bike lanes inside of the parking, and relatively pleasant sidewalks. You would still need Carleton to build up to Bronson, but you put some residences along Bronson with a bit of retail, and you have the makings of a street rather than a stroad.

As I said before, much of Bronson is in a flood plane (see picture below). This makes it a poor location to build. Without any buildings along Bronson, the need for parking and sidewalks diminishes significantly. As for bike lanes, with the new pedestrian/cycling bridge over the Rideau river beside the rail bridge being built, I suspect most cyclists would choose to use it instead and would take a more direct route to it (ie. not along Bronson).

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by roger1818

Considering Carleton is a traditional, isolated campus (not an urban one like uOttawa), I just don't understand why this would be of significant benefit. It is designed to be self sufficient and walkable within itself.

The isolated campuses aren't the "traditional" ones, though.

[phil235]

[QUOTE=roger1818;9426623]

AFAIK, all of those are downtown campuses that are integrated with the downtown of the city. By no stretch of the imagination is Carleton in Ottawa's downtown.

Fair enough. Carleton was relatively suburban when it was built, but it is now pretty much in the core of the city. And I would say that it's definitely a barrier to expanding the walkable core.

Are there plans to demolish and rebuild the Brewer Pool and Arena? Even if there are, I would expect the city would want to move them out of the flood plane. I also don't see how moving them further away from the community is a good thing.

Yeah, there are general plans to replace those facilities within the next 10 years, but no specific site plans. As I understand it, the plan is to build where the pool is, but I'm not sure how concrete that approach is. I do know that there is no plan to move it out of Brewer Park, so it would need to be on the flood plain regardless.

In fairness, to move the arena towards Bronson would only take a shift of a maybe a hundred metres, so I don't really see that as appreciably farther from the community. Particularly when the trade-off is enlarging the community park.

As I said before, much of Bronson is in a flood plane (see picture below). This makes it a poor location to build. Without any buildings along Bronson, the need for parking and sidewalks diminishes significantly. As for bike lanes, with the new pedestrian/cycling bridge over the Rideau river beside the rail bridge being built, I suspect most cyclists would choose to use it instead and would take a more direct route to it (ie. not along Bronson).

Thanks for the map. That helps put it in context. I do see that the Carleton side is mostly out of the flood plain, so perhaps that is why they are planning to build closer to the street. Agreed that most cyclists would use the new bridge, absent a dramatic improvement in cycling facilities in Confederation heights.

[LRTeverywhere]

Here is Carleton's long term plan, a few likely athletic related buildings near the south, and a graduate campus at the north end, that part of campus is a really long way out though timeline wise. That area was actually just expanded to be a paved parking lot to prepare for the decommisioning of the parking tower.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by LRTeverywhere

Here is Carleton's long term plan, a few likely athletic related buildings near the south, and a graduate campus at the north end, that part of campus is a really long way out though timeline wise. That area was actually just expanded to be a paved parking lot to prepare for the decommisioning of the parking tower.

Thanks. That makes a lot of sense. Most of the buildings seem to back onto Bronson (rather than face it), like I was expecting. Granted plans can change, but I don't see why they would have the buildings at the periphery face away from campus.

[phil235]

Originally Posted by roger1818

Thanks. That makes a lot of sense. Most of the buildings seem to back onto Bronson (rather than face it), like I was expecting. Granted plans can change, but I don't see why they would have the buildings at the periphery face away from campus.

Actually, the master plan talks about an urbanized Bronson Ave with stronger connections to the surrounding neighbouhoods. From the plan:

“Bronson Avenue needs a greater pedestrian emphasis to offset its anti-urban high- speed character. Carleton will encourage and work with the City of Ottawa to create a unified vision for the street that is in keeping with the existing context on both sides of the street, while focusing on porous connections into the campus. Development within the campus will seek to establish a greater civic presence through placing buildings at the street edge, particularly in the Mid and North Campus areas. The campus will gain greater presence along Bronson Avenue in this way, with a stronger connection at Sunnyside Avenue and to the residential areas to the north.”

The attached image shows a busy sidewalk along Bronson with benches in front of the building and a stream of cyclists happily biking in an unprotected lane beside traffic. The concept clearly needs a bit of work.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by phil235

Actually, the master plan talks about an urbanized Bronson Ave with stronger connections to the surrounding neighbouhoods. From the plan:

“Bronson Avenue needs a greater pedestrian emphasis to offset its anti-urban high- speed character. Carleton will encourage and work with the City of Ottawa to create a unified vision for the street that is in keeping with the existing context on both sides of the street, while focusing on porous connections into the campus. Development within the campus will seek to establish a greater civic presence through placing buildings at the street edge, particularly in the Mid and North Campus areas. The campus will gain greater presence along Bronson Avenue in this way, with a stronger connection at Sunnyside Avenue and to the residential areas to the north.”

The attached image shows a busy sidewalk along Bronson with benches in front of the building and a stream of cyclists happily biking in an unprotected lane beside traffic. The concept clearly needs a bit of work.

I assume you mean this visualization from the Carleton University’s Master Plan 2016 (do people on this forum not know how reference their sources or attach images)?



I would say the concept needs a lot (not a bit) of work. Besides, one can easily drop cyclists and pedestrians into a rendering, but creating an environment where they want to be there is a whole other story. One has to wonder where those pedestrians and cyclists are actually going. Even if we can reduce the amount of traffic on Bronson to a trickle (which isn't shown in the rendering), making it more attractive place for pedestrians and cyclists, it will still be a detour for them to use it (pedestrians and cyclists want to use the shortest route).

The diagram on the next page (pg. 36) is very telling. While it claims "a strong institutional presence on Bronson," I really see little reason for anyone to walk along the green lines. Those coming from the north will want to use the top "Pedestrian and Cyclist access" as it will almost always be the shortest route, and those coming from Old Ottawa South will have to cross Bronson at one of the access points anyway.

[phil235]

Originally Posted by roger1818

I assume you mean this visualization from the Carleton University’s Master Plan 2016 (do people on this forum not know how reference their sources or attach images)?

Thanks. and sorry, just lazy. I just thought the picture was ridiculous enough that it wasn't worth posting. I don't think that is even Bronson in the picture, unless Brewer Park is going to be lined with 8-storey buildings.

I would say the concept needs a lot (not a bit) of work. Besides, one can easily drop cyclists and pedestrians into a rendering, but creating an environment where they want to be there is a whole other story. One has to wonder where those pedestrians and cyclists are actually going. Even if we can reduce the amount of traffic on Bronson to a trickle (which isn't shown in the rendering), making it more attractive place for pedestrians and cyclists, it will still be a detour for them to use it (pedestrians and cyclists want to use the shortest route).

The diagram on the next page (pg. 36) is very telling. While it claims "a strong institutional presence on Bronson," I really see little reason for anyone to walk along the green lines. Those coming from the north will want to use the top "Pedestrian and Cyclist access" as it will almost always be the shortest route, and those coming from Old Ottawa South will have to cross Bronson at one of the access points anyway.

I don't disagree with any of this. Unless there are wholesale changes to the environment in Confederation Heights, there is not much reason for anyone to be biking down Bronson in mixed traffic (especially towing their baby trailer). That said, if Carleton actually does establish a streetfront presence on Bronson with stores and restaurants, presumably those would be a destination for pedestrians. There is plenty of room there for patios and public spaces where students from the residences would hang out. Put an entrance to the stadium and athletic facilities on Bronson and that would be the preferred route for pedestrians going to those destinations. Same for students going from the residences to Brewer Park. Etc.

You can see in your second diagram that the plan at least reflects that intent. The frontages of all of the new buildings are oriented towards Bronson.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by phil235

I don't think that is even Bronson in the picture, unless Brewer Park is going to be lined with 8-storey buildings.

If I had to guess, it is the view from the northern edge of Carleton looking south along Bronson. The traffic lights would at Sunnyside and the towers on the left would be where Sloan Ave and the Pool currently are.

There could be an argument to urbanize the stretch north of Sunnyside (and maybe a tiny bit further south), but then you start to get mostly fields and parks on both sides of the road until you get to the river.

That said, if Carleton actually does establish a streetfront presence on Bronson with stores and restaurants, presumably those would be a destination for pedestrians.

They might have buildings on Bronson, but given that they have a limited amount land (with no easy way to grow) I doubt if they would allow a significant amount of it taken up by stores and restaurants.

There is plenty of room there for patios and public spaces where students from the residences would hang out.

Would it not be better to put those patios and public spaces in a central location on the campus to make it more easily accessible?

Put an entrance to the stadium and athletic facilities on Bronson and that would be the preferred route for pedestrians going to those destinations.

It would only be the preferred route for those not on campus (and not using the O-Train to get to campus). I am not even convinced it would be the proffered route for those walking/cycling from north or south of the campus.

Same for students going from the residences to Brewer Park. Etc.

Not having attended Carleton, do a lot of those living in residence hang out in Brewer Park? Even if they did, they are only crossing Bronson, not walking along it.

You can see in your second diagram that the plan at least reflects that intent. The frontages of all of the new buildings are oriented towards Bronson.

I interpreted that as being the street front, not the front of the building. Why would they have students coming from other buildings on campus walk all the way around those buildings to get to the main entrance?

[lrt's friend]

It will be very difficult to orient any future Bronson Avenue buildings towards the street when most pedestrian traffic will come from the Carleton campus to the west or Old Ottawa South to the east. There will be little pedestrian traffic going north-south except perhaps walking from the Glebe to the campus, but pedestrian traffic will definitely be very limited going towards the Dunbar Bridge unless Confederation Heights is greatly intensified. This will further be limited by the new pedestrian crossing next to Rideau River railway bridge.

[phil235]

[QUOTE=roger1818;9428780]

There could be an argument to urbanize the stretch north of Sunnyside (and maybe a tiny bit further south), but then you start to get mostly fields and parks on both sides of the road until you get to the river.

Other than the rec facilities, I can't see much happening south of Sunnyside on the park side. On the Carleton side, it looks like there is a pretty large building planned for the parking lot in front of the gym.

They might have buildings on Bronson, but given that they have a limited amount land (with no easy way to grow) I doubt if they would allow a significant amount of it taken up by stores and restaurants.

I wouldn't see those as taking up land, more just being on the first floor of residence buildings.

Would it not be better to put those patios and public spaces in a central location on the campus to make it more easily accessible?

Not if the intent is to better integrate the campus into the neighbourhood. There are plenty of public spaces on campus, so this would be more like the kind of service area that is often found at the edges of campus. Putting restaurants and pubs between the residences and the main off-campus living areas makes sense to me.

It would only be the preferred route for those not on campus (and not using the O-Train to get to campus). I am not even convinced it would be the proffered route for those walking/cycling from north or south of the campus.

Agreed.

Not having attended Carleton, do a lot of those living in residence hang out in Brewer Park? Even if they did, they are only crossing Bronson, not walking along it.

I didn't attend Carleton either, but I'm at Brewer Park a lot and I regularly see Carleton students using the park for various activities - mostly sports (soccer, football, baseball, hockey on the outdoor rinks). If you were coming from new residences on the north end of Bronson, the mostly likely route would be straight down Bronson to the crossing at Brewer Way.

I interpreted that as being the street front, not the front of the building. Why would they have students coming from other buildings on campus walk all the way around those buildings to get to the main entrance?

Hard to see what they mean, but the intent is clearly to create a presence on Bronson to the extent possible.

[phil235]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

It will be very difficult to orient any future Bronson Avenue buildings towards the street when most pedestrian traffic will come from the Carleton campus to the west or Old Ottawa South to the east. There will be little pedestrian traffic going north-south except perhaps walking from the Glebe to the campus, but pedestrian traffic will definitely be very limited going towards the Dunbar Bridge unless Confederation Heights is greatly intensified. This will further be limited by the new pedestrian crossing next to Rideau River railway bridge.

I think that realistically they can achieve that on the north part of campus, but it will be harder south of that. There is a significant amount of foot traffic coming south from the Glebe, though at least some of that will divert into campus at the south end of the bridge. They will need to create some destinations on Bronson (restaurants, stores catering to students, a small grocery maybe) to get more foot traffic there.

[LRTeverywhere]

[QUOTE=phil235;9428818]

Originally Posted by roger1818

I wouldn't see those as taking up land, more just being on the first floor of residence buildings.

Not that this couldn't change in the future but Carleton plans all residences to be within the residence village at the north west section of campus, it will stretch from the current residence village all the way up along the o-train tracks taking over the large P-6 parking lot.

[rocketphish]

Highway 417 westbound off-ramp at Pinecrest to close until summer 2023

Megan Gillis, Ottawa Citizen
Publishing date: Oct 22, 2021 • 5 minutes ago • 1 minute read



The Highway 417 westbound off-ramp to Pinecrest Road is set to close to traffic overnight on Nov. 2 until the summer 2023, the City of Ottawa said.

The closure will allow construction of trench on the north side of the highway as part of the Stage 2 O-Train west extension so that the train will be able to travel under Pinecrest Road and the highway ramps.

From Highway 417 to southbound Pinecrest Road, traffic is detoured to exit the westbound highway using Woodroffe Avenue North, turn left on to Carling Avenue and left onto Pinecrest Road.

From Highway 417 to northbound Greenbank Road, traffic is detoured to exit the westbound highway using Woodroffe Avenue South, turn right onto Baseline Road and right onto Greenbank Road.

Cycling and pedestrian routes will remain open.

https://ottawacitizen.com/news/local-new...-at-pinecrest-to-close-until-summer-2023

[rocketphish]

MPP calls on Ontario to take over responsibility of Hwy. 174 in Ottawa's east end

Josh Pringle, CTV News Ottawa
Published Wednesday, October 27, 2021 3:29PM EDT | Last Updated Wednesday, October 27, 2021 3:29PM EDT

OTTAWA -- Orleans MPP Stephen Blais is calling on the Ontario government to take over responsibility of Regional Road 174 from the city of Ottawa.

Blais introduced the Uploading Highways 174 and 17 Act, 2021, which would return both roads to provincial jurisdiction after having been downloaded to the municipalities by the Progressive Conservative government of Mike Harris back in the 1990s.

"A generation ago the Conservative government of the day chose to download highways 174 and 17 to the municipalities," said Blais in a statement.

"While it was a convenient way to alleviate fiscal pressures at Queen’s Park they stuck local property tax payers with the bill."

According to Blais, the city of Ottawa has spent "at least $40 million in capital and operating expenses" on the 27 km highway between Highway 417 and Canaan Road.

In 2014, the Progressive Conservatives promised to upload responsibility for the road in Ottawa's east end to the province if the party won the provincial election.

Speaking at the Ontario Legislature on Wednesday, Blais noted former PC leader Tim Hudak promised to upload the highway within 100 days if the Progressive Conservatives won the election in 2014.

"It's has been 1,216 days since this government took office, 1,216 days Mr. Speaker and there has been no action. The premier likes to say yes," said Blais as he was cut off by hecklers at Queen's Park.

"Will (Premier Doug Ford) finally say yes to the residents of Wendover, the residents of Rockland, to the residents of Ottawa, will the premier finally say yes to the residents of Orleans, approve Bill 26 and upload Highways 174 and 17."

In 2013, council passed a motion calling on the province to takeover responsibility for Highway 174.

https://ottawa.ctvnews.ca/mpp-calls-on-o...f-hwy-174-in-ottawa-s-east-end-1.5641034

[J.OT13]

Easy to put this forward now when you're powerless and can blame the majority Cons, but as soon as the Libs win the election next year, we'll never hear of this again.

[roger1818]

I'm curious if there are any other controlled access divided highways in Ontario that are under municipal responsibility?