Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by JHikka

In Anglophone cities in NB it absolutely is a class thing. I went to schools with French Immersion - all the FI classes were upper middle class, well-to-do students who were on their way to bigger and brighter things. You'd want to be in FI classes because English-only path classes were seen to be occupied by lower-income, rougher students. You didn't want to be in English-only classes because they were seen to have more disruptive, less motivated students (ie poor). Same goes when comparing high schools with French programs versus those without.
.

In much of the ROC French immersion = free pseudo-private school

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Acajack

In much of the ROC French immersion = free pseudo-private school

Very true. Take a classroom of 30 and find the 10% who are the most disruptive, the least motivated, the biggest trouble-makers, etc. Those kids usually won't be in a French Immersion classroom.

[drew]

Originally Posted by Acajack

In much of the ROC French immersion = free pseudo-private school

Guilty as charged in my household.

I like the idea of FI, but we are also using it as a tool to keep our kids in the area schools that we want.

[Nashe]

Originally Posted by drew

Guilty as charged in my household.

I like the idea of FI, but we are also using it as a tool to keep our kids in the area schools that we want.

Add to that the fact that it doesn't turn out to be that useful at all. All of my friends who went into FI that still live in SE NB have pretty much "lost" their French due to disuse. Use it or lose it. Immersion can't just be at school, it has to be in the rest of society and home for it to be useful long term.

[Acajack]

Although...

From Sarnia, Ontario

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=47SJzEHWwSg


From Vancouver, BC:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z_m-v5fMD60

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by Acajack

From Sarnia, Ontario [/url]

Paul Wells literally moved to France to improve his French.

Originally Posted by Acajack

From Vancouver, BC

James Moore was living and working in Ottawa, so he was able to maintain and use French fairly often. Probably didn't do much practicing in his riding, though.

[Acajack]

And then there's Stephen Harper...

Anyway, I don't know what the end game is here regarding French immersion. I have met lots of people who came out it with pretty good skills that never atrophied and then others who have no skills whatsoever.

Are people suggesting that it be scrapped?

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Are people suggesting that it be scrapped?

I think it's a failed experiment given that bilingualism rates haven't really improved as a result of it. I think it would make more sense to axe it (bearing in mind that there would still be French-language schools in Manitoba for actual Francophones). Politically I would not expect that to happen, though.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Acajack

And then there's Stephen Harper...

Anyway, I don't know what the end game is here regarding French immersion. I have met lots of people who came out it with pretty good skills that never atrophied and then others who have no skills whatsoever.

Are people suggesting that it be scrapped?

Personally I think FI should be the default for every English school in Canada. At minimum should be an option at every school, with French mandatory till the end of secondary school. And obviously the reverse for English with French schools.

Canada is the only country I know of which has more than one official language and treats the education of the second language so trivially.

[thewave46]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Personally I think FI should be the default for every English school in Canada. At minimum should be an option at every school, with French mandatory till the end of secondary school. And obviously the reverse for English with French schools.

Canada is the only country I know of which has more than one official language and treats the education of the second language so trivially.

Education is a provincial matter is the reason for that.

The degree of provincial interest in second-language training is directly proportional to proximity to Quebec.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by esquire

I think it's a failed experiment given that bilingualism rates haven't really improved as a result of it. I think it would make more sense to axe it (bearing in mind that there would still be French-language schools in Manitoba for actual Francophones). Politically I would not expect that to happen, though.

Well, one could counter that the bilingualism trendline for anglophones is still going upwards, even if there are sometimes ups and downs.

Also, the demand for French immersion spots remains very high. Outstripping capacity almost everything. Even if it the motivations aren't all about embracing Trudeaupian dogma, I know.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Well, one could counter that the bilingualism trendline for anglophones is still going upwards, even if there are sometimes ups and downs.

Bilingualism is primarily driven by Quebec.

English-French biingualism rates between 2011 and 2016 only changed nominally in Canada's major English provinces - +0.2% in ON, +0.1% in Alberta, flat in BC. These provinces have bilingualism rates of between 11% and 6% respectively.

QC, NB, ON account for 86% of all bilingual Canadians despite comprising only 64% of Canada's population. Quebec represents 58% of all bilingual Canadians.

The number of bilingual Canadians increased by roughly 400K between 2011 and 2016, 260K of which came just from Quebec.

French mother tongue respondents represented 53% of all bilingual Canadians; English mother tongue represented a bilingualism rate of just 9%.

https://www12.statcan.gc.ca/census-recensement/2016/as-sa/98-200-x/2016009/98-200-x2016009-eng.cfm

[lio45]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Canada is the only country I know of which has more than one official language and treats the education of the second language so trivially.

Yeah, but isn’t it also the only large country with more than one official language? As thewave46 points out, interest in FSL is directly proportional to proximity to Quebec.

If you carved out 1867 Canada as a separate country in 2021 (still larger than European countries), I’m pretty sure French would be taken seriously everywhere in it (Upper Canada, Lower Canada, Maritimes).

One doesn’t need French in Vancouver. I know that for a fact, having lived there most of 2020.

[saffronleaf]

I think most people who have had some experience in Europe and Asia would be shocked at how hard it is to get Anglophone Canada to graduate students with fluency in two languages.

I don't know much about the FI system -- went to English-medium public school & Catholic school. We viewed them as a bit hoity toity, nerdy, effeminate. But whatever system is used, it shouldn't be so hard to graduate students with fluency in both languages.

Bilingualism is a major asset and we should do what we can to make sure the next generation of Anglophone Canadians are more bilingual.

[saffronleaf]

Originally Posted by lio45

Yeah, but isn’t it also the only large country with more than one official language? As thewave46 points out, interest in FSL is directly proportional to proximity to Quebec.

If you carved out 1867 Canada as a separate country in 2021 (still larger than European countries), I’m pretty sure French would be taken seriously everywhere in it (Upper Canada, Lower Canada, Maritimes).

One doesn’t need French in Vancouver. I know that for a fact, having lived there most of 2020.

lol don't need to know English to live in Vancouver either but doesn't mean we shouldn't teach it

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by lio45

Yeah, but isn’t it also the only large country with more than one official language?

Hardly. There's several. Also, Canada is only geographically large. Our population is on par with Poland. Hardly huge.

My parents grew up in India. Public school was taught in the language of the state they resided in. They had English (global lingua franca) and Hindi (national language) taught in school. They spoke a 4th language at home. My mom had French, as a fifth language in university (European languages were a requirement for Arts majors). This is in a rather poor developing country. The argument that we can't teach Canadians both languages is just the normal typical excuse making for Canadian laziness.

Originally Posted by lio45

As thewave46 points out, interest in FSL is directly proportional to proximity to Quebec.

If you carved out 1867 Canada as a separate country in 2021 (still larger than European countries), I’m pretty sure French would be taken seriously everywhere in it (Upper Canada, Lower Canada, Maritimes).

One doesn’t need French in Vancouver. I know that for a fact, having lived there most of 2020.

Agree with all of the above. But then you are also making a solid argument for teaching French to Anglos as a measure of nation building.

[saffronleaf]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Hardly. There's several. Also, Canada is only geographically large. Our population is on par with Poland. Hardly huge.

My parents grew up in India. Public school was taught in the language of the state they resided in. They had English (global lingua franca) and Hindi (national language) taught in school. They spoke a 4th language at home. My mom had French, as a fifth language in university (European languages were a requirement for Arts majors). This is in a rather poor developing country. The argument that we can't teach Canadians both languages is just the normal typical excuse making for Canadian laziness.



Agree with all of the above. But then you are also making a solid argument for teaching French to Anglos as a measure of nation building.

just fyi India has no national language. Hindi and English are the official languages of the Union govt, and states have their own official language(s). But yes it is often taught that way to children. but saying it's 'national', in addition to not being technically correct, is a sensitive issue in parts of the country.

But otherwise fully agreed with what you've said. It's stunning and embarrassing that a rich developed nation like Anglophone Canada finds it so hard to graduate bilinguals.

[thewave46]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

My parents grew up in India. Public school was taught in the language of the state they resided in. They had English (global lingua franca) and Hindi (national language) taught in school. They spoke a 4th language at home. My mom had French, as a fifth language in university (European languages were a requirement for Arts majors). This is in a rather poor developing country. The argument that we can't teach Canadians both languages is just the normal typical excuse making for Canadian laziness.

I'm not disagreeing with your point, but teaching people who natively speak the world's primary lingua franca and language they can easily operate in most of the country a secondary language (even if it is also their own country's) is always an uphill battle.

The force of language drives minority-language speakers towards the one that is more useful for them for additional reasons. In India, speaking Hindi and English in addition to one's family language probably is essential for meaningful real advancement beyond a certain point in life.

While I do support additional language training and live in a region where that is actually pretty useful, I'm also somewhat skeptical of it fostering camaraderie much. There's a certain je ne sais quoi about 'living a culture' that knowing a language won't simply imbue. That's been one of the big surprises of the various English-language countries I've visited.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by thewave46

I'm not disagreeing with your point, but teaching people who natively speak the world's primary lingua franca and language they can easily operate in most of the country a secondary language (even if it is also their own country's) is always an uphill battle.

The force of language drives minority-language speakers towards the one that is more useful for them for additional reasons. In India, speaking Hindi and English in addition to one's family language probably is essential for meaningful real advancement beyond a certain point in life.

Exactly, and it's why my English is better than your French; it's not because you're lazier or less intelligent.

If our positions were reversed, it would be the other way around I'm sure.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Hardly. There's several. Also, Canada is only geographically large. Our population is on par with Poland. Hardly huge.

Geography is what matters. Take Russia, eliminate three-quarters of its current population (evenly across the country), and merge it with Finland, move the capital to St. Petersburg and make the official languages Russian and Finnish; do you think Finnish will be very present or very useful in Vladivostok?