[Saint John] Uptown Thread

[darkharbour]

Originally Posted by adamuptownsj

With Harbour Passage officially beginning to wrap around Fundy Quay soon, and the Finance Committee about to approve a 1,000 foot extension from Broad to Tin Can Beach along Sydney in 2022 (not much road to do this on between the white commercial building and the Ordnance Building, but good luck), what happened to the 2019-era plan to extend along Broad as far as Pitt? I recall it being approved.

East of Pitt, along Crown, it gets more complicated. I presume the propane business could be persuaded to let the passage cross their front lawn, and Crown can be easily narrowed as far as Mecklenberg without impacting traffic.

From Mecklenberg north to Leinster, maybe run the passage along the steep embankment between Crown and the rail spur, and replace one side of the sidewalk from Leinster to Union to get to Passage standards. Perhaps terminate (for now) in a lookout on the Courtenay Bay mudflats.

Does anyone recall if the plans indicate a planned connection to Rockwood south along Crown? Or, are there plans to add a trail or boardwalk in Marsh Creek now that it's a viable ecosystem again?

I can speak to the last part, as ACAP and Dalhousie U. worked with the city planning department to create a concept plan for a trail and parkway along the western side of the Courtenay Forebay [ie. Marsh Creek]. Tons of potential there, and a lot of work already done, it's basically a land ownership issue that has held it up.

[adamuptownsj]

Originally Posted by darkharbour

I can speak to the last part, as ACAP and Dalhousie U. worked with the city planning department to create a concept plan for a trail and parkway along the western side of the Courtenay Forebay [ie. Marsh Creek]. Tons of potential there, and a lot of work already done, it's basically a land ownership issue that has held it up.

Hmm. The east or west side of the forebay? Seems to be two PIDs. It's a wetland and brownfield vulnerable to storm surges, so there's almost no development that could happen there. Or is the issue less 'owner doesn't want this' than 'ownership is disputed?'

What I'd do is
1- run the Passage as I described to Union
2- swing east through the PID-less land south of Union to the soon-to-be removed substation
3- go under the overpass for the train tracks
4- build a boardwalk/trail along the west bank of Marsh Creek
5- Terminate in an observation point and improve the sidewalk along Hanover to Crown to modern standards.

This would impact only two PIDs- the substation and the Marsh Creek west bank. Neither have any great economic potential.

What you think the plan is north of like Hanover? I presume the files relating to this project vanished with the ransomware attack.

EDIT: Zooming in here I see substantial plans.

[darkharbour]

Originally Posted by adamuptownsj

Hmm. The east or west side of the forebay? Seems to be two PIDs. It's a wetland and brownfield vulnerable to storm surges, so there's almost no development that could happen there. Or is the issue less 'owner doesn't want this' than 'ownership is disputed?'

What I'd do is
1- run the Passage as I described to Union
2- swing east through the PID-less land south of Union to the soon-to-be removed substation
3- go under the overpass for the train tracks
4- build a boardwalk/trail along the west bank of Marsh Creek
5- Terminate in an observation point and improve the sidewalk along Hanover to Crown to modern standards.

This would impact only two PIDs- the substation and the Marsh Creek west bank. Neither have any great economic potential.

What you think the plan is north of like Hanover? I presume the files relating to this project vanished with the ransomware attack.

EDIT: Zooming in here I see substantial plans.

Your ideas are very similar to what was worked out, I'll post a few images/site plans when I have the chance to dig up the file from my backups (saved from the ransomeware)

[NewIreland]

Originally Posted by darkharbour

Your ideas are very similar to what was worked out, I'll post a few images/site plans when I have the chance to dig up the file from my backups (saved from the ransomeware)

A large wide promenade on the Courtney Bay Causeway is long overdue. It's not pedestrian friendly in it's current state.

[ColSJ]

Originally Posted by adamuptownsj

Hmm. The east or west side of the forebay? Seems to be two PIDs. It's a wetland and brownfield vulnerable to storm surges, so there's almost no development that could happen there. Or is the issue less 'owner doesn't want this' than 'ownership is disputed?'

What I'd do is
1- run the Passage as I described to Union
2- swing east through the PID-less land south of Union to the soon-to-be removed substation
3- go under the overpass for the train tracks
4- build a boardwalk/trail along the west bank of Marsh Creek
5- Terminate in an observation point and improve the sidewalk along Hanover to Crown to modern standards.

This would impact only two PIDs- the substation and the Marsh Creek west bank. Neither have any great economic potential.

What you think the plan is north of like Hanover? I presume the files relating to this project vanished with the ransomware attack.

EDIT: Zooming in here I see substantial plans.

I really wish we could tear up the causeway and build a nice elevated bridge.

[adamuptownsj]

I noticed in the ACAP concept they removed the barrier between the Marsh Creek outflow and the forebay. I presume this is way to expensive and complicated to ever expect, and who knows what it would disturb. Creosote or worse.

Any plan to straight up remove the causeway would have severe impacts on the industrial and commercial lots backing onto this area in the event of storm surges, and that's before you even get into any environmental impact assessment.

I presume the city has very long term plans to raise the causeway instead.

[darkharbour]

Originally Posted by adamuptownsj

I noticed in the ACAP concept they removed the barrier between the Marsh Creek outflow and the forebay. I presume this is way to expensive and complicated to ever expect, and who knows what it would disturb. Creosote or worse.

Any plan to straight up remove the causeway would have severe impacts on the industrial and commercial lots backing onto this area in the event of storm surges, and that's before you even get into any environmental impact assessment.

I presume the city has very long term plans to raise the causeway instead.

The creosote is a separate issue that is largely contained behind Canada Post in the creek bed. Portions do migrate downstream, but the vast majority is in the exact same place it has been since the Likely lumber yard was closed almost a century ago. It definitely needs to be dealt with, there have been a number of solutions identified over the years but not enough urgency to deal with it from any level of government.

The linear structure that was proposed to be removed from that concept was only installed in the first place because the original intent was to backfill the entire forebay area leaving only a narrow linear channel for Marsh Creek's drainage. The causeway itself was constructed of rock "donated" by Irving (that was at the time, a single company), which they did in exchange for ownership of whatever land was "reclaimed" behind it and that was intended to become an industrial park (the current IOL lubricants plant is an example of the intended use of the entire area). The rock placed by Irving that underpins the causeway was intended to be owned by the Province, while building the roadway atop it was the responsibility of the city. It was realized soon after that the flooding upstream in the Glen Falls are was exasperated by the infilling of land at the mouth of the creek, so the city council actually engaged in a number of disputes over the land and over the drainage in the creek going back to the 70s, but no new agreement was ever reached. There is a whole bigger story here about the change in legal status for the creek triggered by the construction of the causeway, which removed its federal navigable waters act protections and allowed certain industrialists to skirt regulations that would have otherwise applied to subsequent developments, but that's a whole other story.

The forebay is now a "provincially significant wetland" so it is unlikely it will ever be further filled in, since doing so would contravene a number of habitat protection laws, as well as further endanger the over $1.1 billion dollars (2019 estimate) of private property that exists within the Marsh Creek floodplain.

The causeway is here to stay because of how much of the city we developed upstream of it in low-lying areas, and the City's Climate Change Adaptation Plan (2020) clearly identifies that the height of the structure is far below what is required for adequate storm surge protection now, and will need at least 3 m of height added to it in order to accommodate sea level rise.

Anyway, here are the concepts of the three phases of Harbour Passage expansion into forebay I mentioned earlier:

[adamuptownsj]

Oh man, this is some deep lore. I was under the impression the forebay had more creosote (in the form of railroad ties buried in the channel barrier structure). I guess that's untrue.

Who built that, anyway? Province, city, or corporate? And when? It sounds like it predates the causeway by a few years.

Regarding commercial interests in the most low lying areas, I figure the lubricants plant is going nowhere, but it wouldn't be that expensive or inconvenient for Midland to go to one of the industrial parks. Less ominous brownfield than lubricants anyway. The businesses east of Crown (there seems to be higher occupancy back there than ten years ago) could get by with a berm, pending an eventual causeway raising.

Here's a blast from the past: https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-bruns...city-of-courtenay-bay-terminal-1.3044854

[cdnguys]

[IMG][/IMG]

[JHikka]

Wentworth actually looks pretty good. I'll wait until infrastructure and street fronting is complete but this is definitely a win I think.

[OliverD]

Looks good for a Spitfire design.

[Pugsley]

I just LOVE this development and the prospect of more like this one coming to Saint John. It is the perfect level of density for the city and there are so many spaces in the uptown area for more developments like this. I know many think that height is what is needed, but some of the greatest cities in the world have density of this nature spanning for miles. It makes the city feel more urban and helps to create a very walkable and thriving city. Saint John is very lucky to have had its central peninsula be neglected for several years as many of the heritage structures are still intact and are perfect for being in-filled with this kind of mixed-use development.

Unlike Toronto or other cities in Ontario where developments between the 60s and 90s levelled entire blocks to be replaced by tall and uninspiring condo towers. Other than Brunswick Square, much of Saint John's historic character remains intact and the recent developments on open lots like this one is just adding more and more character. So wonderful to see!

[adamuptownsj]

Originally Posted by Pugsley

I just LOVE this development and the prospect of more like this one coming to Saint John. It is the perfect level of density for the city and there are so many spaces in the uptown area for more developments like this. I know many think that height is what is needed, but some of the greatest cities in the world have density of this nature spanning for miles. It makes the city feel more urban and helps to create a very walkable and thriving city. Saint John is very lucky to have had its central peninsula be neglected for several years as many of the heritage structures are still intact and are perfect for being in-filled with this kind of mixed-use development.

Unlike Toronto or other cities in Ontario where developments between the 60s and 90s levelled entire blocks to be replaced by tall and uninspiring condo towers. Other than Brunswick Square, much of Saint John's historic character remains intact and the recent developments on open lots like this one is just adding more and more character. So wonderful to see!

I wouldn't say it 'adds character', it's just a solid 5.5-and-1 from a typically-worse developer.

And if you think highway construction didn't wreck Saint John pretty badly, you should check out the Lost Valley blog. It literally bisected the densest part of the city at great cost.

[cdnguys]

Originally Posted by Pugsley

I just LOVE this development and the prospect of more like this one coming to Saint John. It is the perfect level of density for the city and there are so many spaces in the uptown area for more developments like this. I know many think that height is what is needed, but some of the greatest cities in the world have density of this nature spanning for miles. It makes the city feel more urban and helps to create a very walkable and thriving city. Saint John is very lucky to have had its central peninsula be neglected for several years as many of the heritage structures are still intact and are perfect for being in-filled with this kind of mixed-use development.

Unlike Toronto or other cities in Ontario where developments between the 60s and 90s levelled entire blocks to be replaced by tall and uninspiring condo towers. Other than Brunswick Square, much of Saint John's historic character remains intact and the recent developments on open lots like this one is just adding more and more character. So wonderful to see!

If I were a billionaire developer I’d buy up St James and Britain Streets, raze it, and build 5 or 6 stories the whole length like Paris with a street made of cobblestone and trees. Rotary / fountain park mid way
Then expand out from there only saving decent looking buildings. Build affordable housing at site of the old cotton factory behind Crown St to house the displaced. One can dream lol

[cdnguys]

[IMG] [/IMG]

[jonny golden]

The Telegraph is such a great project. It's a fantastic addition to that neighbourhood. Kudos to the developer.

[ColSJ]

The vacant lot at the corner of Charlotte and Queen Square South with the townhouse drawings has sold. I wonder if the new owners plan to proceed with the project.

[adamuptownsj]

Originally Posted by ColSJ

The vacant lot at the corner of Charlotte and Queen Square South with the townhouse drawings has sold. I wonder if the new owners plan to proceed with the project.

Finally. I looked at it myself but the designs weren't of value to me and seem very plain for a prominent corner lot. The question is, does anyone buy the 5 lot agglomeration across Charlotte on the corner of Harding once this starts? Or the old gas station on Queen Sq N and Charlotte.

[cdnguys]

Probably be parking - that beautiful Queen Sq house beside the property has no parking and new owners run it as an AirBNB (like a dozen other beautiful historical properties uptown).

[ColSJ]

Originally Posted by cdnguys

Probably be parking - that beautiful Queen Sq house beside the property has no parking and new owners run it as an AirBNB (like a dozen other beautiful historical properties uptown).

I’m not too confident in that idea. The advertising of the property was clearly geared towards someone willing to take up the project. But let’s say hypothetically whoever did buy it plans to turn it into parking, because the property is in a heritage conservation area they’d have to go through the Heritage Development Board and then PAC and then common council. I can’t imagine any of these committees approving a parking lot there.