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  #3081  
Old Posted Oct 1, 2021, 5:14 PM
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summersm343 summersm343 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcgrath618 View Post
There’s not nearly enough room at the Disney Hole for the stadium, much less the stadium and two high rise buildings. The historic building on the SW corner of the lot would have to be demolished, and even then, it’s barely big enough for the Sixer’s needs.

You make some valid points about the Fashion District, and I wholly agree that the more pressing issue on East Market at the moment is knocking down the south side of the 1000-1100 blocks and building taller, but when all of that is said and done, would you not agree that the FD is not the highest use of the land?

I realize that this is a totally different argument from what I was saying before (demolishing it NOW) but I think at the end of the day I just want it gone. Maybe not now, but before I die in 2100.
Eventually, you're right, it's not the highest and best use of land, but for now? It certainly is for this area.

Looks at TD Garden in Boston with the two highrises fronting Causeway Street - it's pretty compact AND has a train station inside of it. I can't imagine this similar set up wouldn't fit at 8th and Market. Yes, the historic building would unfortunately have to be demolished, This may be the path we have to take unfortunately.

If we DO keep that building, we need at least 2-3 highrise built on the surface lot(s).
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  #3082  
Old Posted Oct 1, 2021, 6:47 PM
PHLtoNYC PHLtoNYC is online now
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Originally Posted by summersm343 View Post
I'm not sure why we're even talking about demolishing the Fashion District. Is it perfect? No, but it's a hell of a lot better than what was there. Plus, the average tourist won't know any different and would ACTUALLY like this mall. It even meets the street much better than what was there. The food scene is decent with City Winery, Hoots Wings, and your typical suburban mall stuff. It has an AMC Theater, Candytopia, Wonderspaces and a Round One.

Look at the shopping line up - Armani Exchange, Aerie, Aeropostale, American Eagle, Burlington, Columbia, DSW, Eddie Bauer, Express, Forever 21, Francesca's, Gamestop, Guess, H&M, Hollister, Journey's, Kate Spade, Levi's, Lids, Nike, Pandora, Primark, Sephora, Spencer's, Sunglass Hut, Ulta Beauty and Zumiez with still more room to add more. It not only fills a retail void that Center City was missing with a lot of these stores, OR stores that are no longer available on Chestnut or Walnut (American Eagle, Guess, Forever 21, Kate Spade, Ulta all closed...), but it also reads like a suburban mall dream playbook. I know the idea of suburbs gets under most people's skin on this forum, but what do you expect? This is EXACTLY the type of retail that should be at Market East. Almost every tourist to Philadelphia IF NOT EVERY tourist in Philadelphia will filter through this area. MOST of those tourists are suburbanites.

Fashion District is HARDLY the thing holding Market East back, and it's certainly improved by leaps and bounds. The city needs to do a better job of pushing the seedy characters and the homeless along. This area has a Macy's, TJ Maxx, Five Below, Ross, Marshall's, the Fashion District, the Convention Center, Reading Terminal Market, the Declaration House, and sits between Old City and the Parkway - probably two of the most visited areas in Philadelphia. We need the highrise on the 13th and Market lot to get off of the ground, we need the entire south half of the 1000 block of Market to be demolished and replaced with one or two highrises. We need the buildings between Ludlow, 10th and Market to be demolished (obviously keeping the historic church) and replaced with a highrise. We need that crumby Rite Aid and the old Burger King to be demolished and replaced with a new highrise on the 700 block (and some of those other buildings on the south end need some TLC, we need the parking garage Brandywine now owns demolished and replaced with a highrise and MOST IMPORTANTLY, we need the 800 block of market gaping Disney Hole eyesore to be filled in. I'm now in full support of the Sixers building their stadium here with two highrises that front Market Street just like TD Garden in Boston. Once all these lots fill in, we should absolutely be pulling for stores like a Disney Store, Legoland, Hershey's Chocolate World, and other touristy things.
Very good post. The Fashion District is okay (still not great), but the entire South side of Market is where the problems lie. Expanding the Market East project all the way to 8th Street with attractive towers on attractive podiums would seal the deal for Market.

And while I long ago dreamed of KoP type retail in Center City, I think the way to go is Disney, Lego, Hershey, etc., and it would be nice to throw in a few nicer home stores like Design Within Reach (they were an original tenant for Market East but backed out). The Starbucks Roastery Concept would be cool along Market too.

Who owns South side of 900-1100 Market? I know Goldenberg owns 800 block (great...).
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  #3083  
Old Posted Oct 1, 2021, 7:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PHLtoNYC View Post
Very good post. The Fashion District is okay (still not great), but the entire South side of Market is where the problems lie. Expanding the Market East project all the way to 8th Street with attractive towers on attractive podiums would seal the deal for Market.

And while I long ago dreamed of KoP type retail in Center City, I think the way to go is Disney, Lego, Hershey, etc., and it would be nice to throw in a few nicer home stores like Design Within Reach (they were an original tenant for Market East but backed out). The Starbucks Roastery Concept would be cool along Market too.

Who owns South side of 900-1100 Market? I know Goldenberg owns 800 block (great...).
I think there is a place for high end luxury retail in Center City in our lifetime. I really do think as Philadelphia gets wealthier, continues to build up and continues to get a better image for itself that luxury retail will come. It's only a matter of time.

Luxury retail will go to Rittenhouse though. There's no other spot for it right now in city limits. Luxury stores will not go to Market East. I mean look, luxury stores are not in Downtown Boston - they're in Back Bay. Luxury stores are not really in Midtown Manhattan, most of them are in SoHo or Upper East Side.

Here are stores that are located at KOP Mall that not a single person can tell me that these stores wouldn't do well in Center City.

Some more stores that can go in Market East/Fashion District:
As Seen on TV
Bloomingdale's
Coach
Ecco
Fabletics
Finish Line
Fossil
Gap (I understand they're struggling right now)
Lego
Lindt
Loft
Lolli and Pops
Oakley
Pacsun
Tommy Bahama
Timberland
Vans
Vera Bradley
Zara

Stores that would be a good fit for Chestnut Street:
Against All Odds
Alex and Ani
Aveda
Banana Republic
Burton
Clarks
G Star Raw
Johnston and Murphy
Kendra Scott
Lucky Brand
Rally House
South Moon Under
Superdry

Stores that would be a good fit for Walnut Street:
Altar'd State
Hugo Boss
Club Monaco (they closed their recent store due to rent disputes with the landlord)
Cole Haan (closed because of pandemic looting)
Cartier
Burberry
FP Movement
Gucci
Lily Pulitzer
Longchamp
Louis Vuitton
Oliver Peoples
Peloton
Ralph Lauren
Saint Laurent
Shinola
Stuart Weitzman (closed because of COVID/looting)
Ted Baker
Tory Burch
White House Black Market


Stores that should be in Center City if there was enough space for them:
Crate & Barrel
Nordstrom
Pottery Barn
Restoration Hardware
The Container Store
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  #3084  
Old Posted Oct 1, 2021, 8:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcgrath618 View Post
There’s not nearly enough room at the Disney Hole for the stadium, much less the stadium and two high rise buildings. The historic building on the SW corner of the lot would have to be demolished, and even then, it’s barely big enough for the Sixer’s needs.

You make some valid points about the Fashion District, and I wholly agree that the more pressing issue on East Market at the moment is knocking down the south side of the 1000-1100 blocks and building taller, but when all of that is said and done, would you not agree that the FD is not the highest use of the land?

I realize that this is a totally different argument from what I was saying before (demolishing it NOW) but I think at the end of the day I just want it gone. Maybe not now, but before I die in 2100.
Speaking of Disney hole look at this relic.

http://www.disneyhole.org/thehole.html
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Last edited by TonyTone; Oct 1, 2021 at 9:09 PM.
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  #3085  
Old Posted Oct 1, 2021, 10:54 PM
3rd&Brown 3rd&Brown is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by summersm343 View Post
I think there is a place for high end luxury retail in Center City in our lifetime. I really do think as Philadelphia gets wealthier, continues to build up and continues to get a better image for itself that luxury retail will come. It's only a matter of time.

Luxury retail will go to Rittenhouse though. There's no other spot for it right now in city limits. Luxury stores will not go to Market East. I mean look, luxury stores are not in Downtown Boston - they're in Back Bay. Luxury stores are not really in Midtown Manhattan, most of them are in SoHo or Upper East Side.

Here are stores that are located at KOP Mall that not a single person can tell me that these stores wouldn't do well in Center City.

Some more stores that can go in Market East/Fashion District:
As Seen on TV
Bloomingdale's
Coach
Ecco
Fabletics
Finish Line
Fossil
Gap (I understand they're struggling right now)
Lego
Lindt
Loft
Lolli and Pops
Oakley
Pacsun
Tommy Bahama
Timberland
Vans
Vera Bradley
Zara

Stores that would be a good fit for Chestnut Street:
Against All Odds
Alex and Ani
Aveda
Banana Republic
Burton
Clarks
G Star Raw
Johnston and Murphy
Kendra Scott
Lucky Brand
Rally House
South Moon Under
Superdry

Stores that would be a good fit for Walnut Street:
Altar'd State
Hugo Boss
Club Monaco (they closed their recent store due to rent disputes with the landlord)
Cole Haan (closed because of pandemic looting)
Cartier
Burberry
FP Movement
Gucci
Lily Pulitzer
Longchamp
Louis Vuitton
Oliver Peoples
Peloton
Ralph Lauren
Saint Laurent
Shinola
Stuart Weitzman (closed because of COVID/looting)
Ted Baker
Tory Burch
White House Black Market


Stores that should be in Center City if there was enough space for them:
Crate & Barrel
Nordstrom
Pottery Barn
Restoration Hardware
The Container Store
This is sort of a traditional list. You're missing a lot of the newer DTC brands that are branching into stores.

Everlane
Cuyana
Deciem / The Ordinary
Glossier
Le Labo
Away
Casper

Also, a Rimowa store would kill it on Walnut Street. Philly should also have a Marc Jacobs and a Kenzo store.
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  #3086  
Old Posted Oct 1, 2021, 11:05 PM
3rd&Brown 3rd&Brown is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcgrath618 View Post
There’s not nearly enough room at the Disney Hole for the stadium, much less the stadium and two high rise buildings. The historic building on the SW corner of the lot would have to be demolished, and even then, it’s barely big enough for the Sixer’s needs.

You make some valid points about the Fashion District, and I wholly agree that the more pressing issue on East Market at the moment is knocking down the south side of the 1000-1100 blocks and building taller, but when all of that is said and done, would you not agree that the FD is not the highest use of the land?

I realize that this is a totally different argument from what I was saying before (demolishing it NOW) but I think at the end of the day I just want it gone. Maybe not now, but before I die in 2100.
Realistically I don't see where the Sixers could go right downtown anymore. The city has added so many residents since the last time we had this battle. The NIMBYs would be out in force. That's not to say I don't want them in Center City, I do.

But isn't it more realistic to think they're end up somewhere along N Broad or in Callowhill or even at Spring Garden and Delaware?
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  #3087  
Old Posted Oct 2, 2021, 12:49 AM
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Originally Posted by 3rd&Brown View Post
Realistically I don't see where the Sixers could go right downtown anymore. The city has added so many residents since the last time we had this battle. The NIMBYs would be out in force. That's not to say I don't want them in Center City, I do.

But isn't it more realistic to think they're end up somewhere along N Broad or in Callowhill or even at Spring Garden and Delaware?
They'll move to Camden (and I'll drop my season tickets). It will be a similar story to the practice facilities. Ideally they'd stay around the stadiums, but I highly doubt they'd be willing to. Jersey will pay them and Harris will be more than happy to take the bribe to move them across the Delaware.
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  #3088  
Old Posted Oct 2, 2021, 2:50 AM
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How big is Madison square garden?

Could an arena built at urban spec like that be built at 8 & Market or where the Old police headquarters currently is?

I think the best bet would probably be to build it right at the end of Spring Garden on a new pier or 8&Market or the current Police Headquarters.
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  #3089  
Old Posted Oct 2, 2021, 5:30 AM
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Originally Posted by mcgrath618 View Post
There’s not nearly enough room at the Disney Hole for the stadium, much less the stadium and two high rise buildings. The historic building on the SW corner of the lot would have to be demolished, and even then, it’s barely big enough for the Sixer’s needs.

You make some valid points about the Fashion District, and I wholly agree that the more pressing issue on East Market at the moment is knocking down the south side of the 1000-1100 blocks and building taller, but when all of that is said and done, would you not agree that the FD is not the highest use of the land?

I realize that this is a totally different argument from what I was saying before (demolishing it NOW) but I think at the end of the day I just want it gone. Maybe not now, but before I die in 2100.
I know nothing about development other than what I read here generally but I do have some information on the sixers here. 8th and Market is one of the sites on their short list. You can fit an arena there. Although I don't know anything in regards to the specifics on how a site plan would look, what would happen to the building fronting chestnut and 9th, or even how seriously this site was considered.

However while this was definitely a site that was considered, after the waterfront proposal fell apart I said that the Hahnemann site seems to be the frontrunner. Nothing I've heard since then contradicts that.
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  #3090  
Old Posted Oct 2, 2021, 10:37 AM
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They'll move to Camden (and I'll drop my season tickets). It will be a similar story to the practice facilities. Ideally they'd stay around the stadiums, but I highly doubt they'd be willing to. Jersey will pay them and Harris will be more than happy to take the bribe to move them across the Delaware.
How does a move to Camden benifits them?
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  #3091  
Old Posted Oct 2, 2021, 1:49 PM
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Originally Posted by summersm343 View Post
I'm not sure why we're even talking about demolishing the Fashion District. Is it perfect? No, but it's a hell of a lot better than what was there. Plus, the average tourist won't know any different and would ACTUALLY like this mall. It even meets the street much better than what was there. The food scene is decent with City Winery, Hoots Wings, and your typical suburban mall stuff. It has an AMC Theater, Candytopia, Wonderspaces and a Round One.

[...] MOST IMPORTANTLY, we need the 800 block of market gaping Disney Hole eyesore to be filled in. I'm now in full support of the Sixers building their stadium here with two highrises that front Market Street just like TD Garden in Boston. Once all these lots fill in, we should absolutely be pulling for stores like a Disney Store, Legoland, Hershey's Chocolate World, and other touristy things.
Quote:
Originally Posted by summersm343 View Post
Looks at TD Garden in Boston with the two highrises fronting Causeway Street - it's pretty compact AND has a train station inside of it. I can't imagine this similar set up wouldn't fit at 8th and Market. Yes, the historic building would unfortunately have to be demolished, This may be the path we have to take unfortunately.
So we should keep the shitty 5-story 1970s and 80s Fashion District building(s) but demolish the beautiful 12-story 1920s building across the street? Holy shit, dude.
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  #3092  
Old Posted Oct 2, 2021, 2:38 PM
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So we should keep the shitty 5-story 1970s and 80s Fashion District building(s) but demolish the beautiful 12-story 1920s building across the street? Holy shit, dude.
For now. Yes. Not saying the 12-story building needs to be demolished at all - but I would be OK with seeing it go for something resembling TD Garden. We could even preserve the facade. If the Sixers wanted to be there and develop something akin to TD Garden, I'd be OK. NOW, if we can develop the surface lots around the building with 3 highrises, and not demolish it, OBVIOUSLY that's my preference.

As others pointed out - it's unlikely the Sixers could or would build here anyways. For the record - I still think the best spot for a new Sixers Arena is around 30th Street Station. Cap over the rail yards, build a new arena and 2-3 highrises? The second best spot in my opinion is still down at the Stadiums.

And I'm not saying the Fashion District should stay forever.... but for now? It gets the job done until the rest of Market East builds up. It's really not that bad. The redo did kinda slap lipstick on a pig, but at least it looks much better than was there and brings more retail to Center City and looks good to tourists - which is realistically who this area caters to, does it not?

This area is all about creating a tourist experience - like a baby Times Square or Downtown Crossing area in Boston.
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  #3093  
Old Posted Oct 2, 2021, 5:26 PM
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How does a move to Camden benifits them?
It doesn't. They won't move there. Maybe they'll use it as leverage, but they're not moving to Camden. Zero chance.
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  #3094  
Old Posted Oct 3, 2021, 11:19 AM
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IIRC Boston's Downtown Crossing has many of the same problems Market East has. It seems to be a common problem among the handful of surviving traditional retail centers in the US.

As far as ME goes, I think a long term strength it has is that the Market-Chestnut-Walnut retail area is contiguous. Downtown Crossing isn't contiguous with Back Bay, but State Street is contiguous with the Magnificent Mile. This means that retail energy from one part of the area backfills problems in other parts of the area.

Also...Banana Republic, Cole Haan, and Club Monaco all left CC in the last two years?
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  #3095  
Old Posted Oct 3, 2021, 11:31 AM
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Originally Posted by hammersklavier View Post
IIRC Boston's Downtown Crossing has many of the same problems Market East has. It seems to be a common problem among the handful of surviving traditional retail centers in the US.

As far as ME goes, I think a long term strength it has is that the Market-Chestnut-Walnut retail area is contiguous. Downtown Crossing isn't contiguous with Back Bay, but State Street is contiguous with the Magnificent Mile. This means that retail energy from one part of the area backfills problems in other parts of the area.

Also...Banana Republic, Cole Haan, and Club Monaco all left CC in the last two years?
You’re not wrong. Downtown Crossing area in Boston has many of the same problems as Market East, BUT it’s much nicer and much more built up.

Banana Republic and Club Monaco closed solely over rent disputes with their respective landlords. Banana Republic is looking for new digs in Center City, but I’m not sure Club Monaco is.

Cole Haan closed solely due to the pandemic/looting and lack of traffic during that time.
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  #3096  
Old Posted Oct 3, 2021, 3:30 PM
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It doesn't. They won't move there. Maybe they'll use it as leverage, but they're not moving to Camden. Zero chance.
I hope you're right, but it already happened with their training facilities. They were supposed to be in the Navy Yard and got poached by Camden because Jersey gave them $$$. The ownership is all about building the brand value. The best way to do that is a public handout to build with. Jersey outbid PA last time with this team, what makes you think it wouldn't that happen again?
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  #3097  
Old Posted Oct 3, 2021, 4:35 PM
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I hope you're right, but it already happened with their training facilities. They were supposed to be in the Navy Yard and got poached by Camden because Jersey gave them $$$. The ownership is all about building the brand value. The best way to do that is a public handout to build with. Jersey outbid PA last time with this team, what makes you think it wouldn't that happen again?
Fans. You don’t have fans come to the practice facility so it’s less of a consideration. But they need to sell 20k tickets a night, and there’s more than twice as many fans on this side of the river. I don’t see how any incentive amount could possibly outweigh that. South Jersey would definitely have less brand value than Philadelphia.
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  #3098  
Old Posted Oct 3, 2021, 5:13 PM
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  #3099  
Old Posted Oct 3, 2021, 6:56 PM
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Fans. You don’t have fans come to the practice facility so it’s less of a consideration. But they need to sell 20k tickets a night, and there’s more than twice as many fans on this side of the river. I don’t see how any incentive amount could possibly outweigh that. South Jersey would definitely have less brand value than Philadelphia.
Arena ownership is just as important as selling out (along with broadcast rigths), as, as long as they're putting out a good product, they'll get butts in seats. While I agree with Philadelphia brand is better than South Jersey, I don't think that's as big a part of their equation (they'd still keep Philadelphia branding, etc.).
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  #3100  
Old Posted Oct 3, 2021, 10:15 PM
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