Quality of Canadian urbanism

[MattBerryOfficial]

This post is an excellent example in how selective use of street view can build any argument. I could use street views of Montreal and Edmonton to argue Edmonton has a more complete urban form than Montreal.

[logan5]

Originally Posted by MattBerryOfficial

This post is an excellent example in how selective use of street view can build any argument. I could use street views of Montreal and Edmonton to argue Edmonton has a more complete urban form than Montreal.

As an exercise, could we see how that would look?

[ue]

Originally Posted by ScreamingViking

I walked across central Hamilton on Monday, to and from the Labour Day game. I live west of downtown, and Tim Hortons Field is several kms east of the core, so it was more than 5 km there and a bit longer on the way home (I took a less direct route on the return trip).

I can write more about it later with some streetview links, but the area I went through covers almost every urban streetscape in the city aside from suburbia and industrial -- century-old gentrified neighbourhoods, blocks of slab apartments mixed among ancient large homes and old walk-up apartment buildings, downtown office/commercial and institutional land uses, the eclectic "International Village" shopping strip, some relatively downtrodden blocks with barren lots scattered about, and neighbourhoods of 1.5 and 2 storey 1920s-40s era homes nearer the stadium that are solid but yet to really feel the latest wave of real estate appreciation and speculation.

Depending on the route, you're either walking along one-way raceways, which is oh so pleasant, or tree-lined streets that are fairly quiet. The cast of characters was very broad... Ticat fans like me heading to and from THF, people out tending their yards, groups of teens looking for an antidote to boredom, infirm folk on scooters and electric wheelchairs, families on their porches, and a few drug-users doing their thing.

"Quality" would be a matter of opinion. But there's plenty of grace and plenty of grit too.

Hamilton is a really interesting city to me. More than Ottawa honestly (no offense to Ottawans). It reminds me of a brickier Winnipeg in some ways. They both went through decades of stagnation only to start growing at a decent rate again in the last 10-15 years and are around the same size. Both are heavily industrial and older.

It definitely isn't as vibrant as Ottawa, but it has a lot of 'character' and potential, much like Winnipeg does. Those old bones are just exquisite urbanism. Plus the Escarpment and Lake Ontario provide a really beautiful geography and it has the benefit of proximity to Toronto without having to deal with Toronto if it doesn't want to.

[Razor]

Originally Posted by ue

Hamilton is a really interesting city to me. More than Ottawa honestly (no offense to Ottawans). It reminds me of a brickier Winnipeg in some ways.

Yes, I found Hamilton interesting too.."Bricky" is a good description.
Hamilton has some great architecture. Like I mentioned in previous post, I liked how separate Hamilton felt from Toronto. It is of course, but keeping a separate soul and character is hard to maintain when you have such a giant next door.

[ssiguy]

I think it's safe to say that most of our downtowns are vibrant and are enjoying fast rising populations along with expanded transit infrastructure and service. This helps secure their futures. Most of our inner city neighbourhoods are also doing quite well.

For me the issue is how we reinvigorate our post-war suburban growth. What do we do with all those parking lots, strouds, and empty malls? How can we rid ourselves of our car dependent suburbs?

Increasing density is not always the best option. We have seen this in Vancouver where there are huge developments around SkyTrain stations but they were made possible by throwing the renters out and putting glass boxes in making them nothing more than financially gated communities anchored by a mall.

How do we fix some of these mistakes without dislocating the poor and creating a real sense of place and community as opposed to nothing more than high density, sterile, and alienating blocks of people?

[ue]

Something I was musing about last night was West Edmonton Mall. It really is such an odd place. For those that haven't been, most think about how vast it is and maybe the different big attractions (like Galaxyland or the Waterpark). It's the city's busiest mall and arguably its most premium as well. But because it's so big, there's also more low end retailers. It really has quite a range.

About 8-10 years ago they started to renovate a lot of the mall, to update it with the times. A lot of malls have done this. I lamented the removal of the unique, if kitsch, elements of the mall because there was a lot of fun to it. Because the mall is so big, it made more sense to renovate in phases. But the weird thing is it feels like they just stopped randomly and haven't done any new renovations in several years despite chunks of the old mall remaining. WEM has always been piecemeal, but at least before it had consistent flooring!

I contrast this with other premium malls in Canada, like Yorkdale, Carrefour Laval, or Chinook, all of which have had relatively recent renovations. These malls aren't as big as WEM nor do they have the myriad of attractions, but they are, for what they are, a lot nicer. WEM's corridors are long, but have short ceilings and many parts lack decent natural light and can feel dingy. These other malls have emphasized natural light and tend to have grand, airy corridors with higher ceilings and wider berths (well this is less so in Chinook, but definitely the other two). These malls lack WEM's character, but they do actually look like a premium mall in a way WEM doesn't. Their renovations were consistent and global, utilizing clean, shiny flooring and wall materials. In WEM, you have the old, dingy 1980s tiling right outside a brand new Louis Vuitton store. But go down the main corridor, and outside Purdy's Chocolates and American Eagle is a new (I want to say granite?) flooring that does feel reminiscent of Yorkdale, but it's only a small section.

On the other hand, many of the renovations, particularly of the 'themed' kitsch attractions, have this bland, fast-casual aesthetic overlaid onto them now that feel so lifeless compared to the fun kitsch they once were (I'm thinking of Bourbon St and Chinatown). The quality and character of the mall has gone downhill while the aspirational upgrades haven't held up or are a patchwork.

Anyway, all of this is to say that while Edmonton did think "big" with WEM and it did have some really outlandish sites, it is now becoming sterilized and the renovations are half-assed. It doesn't really feel like it's thinking big anymore and the mall is resting on its laurels a bit. It can afford to coast, I guess, because it is such a strong shopping and entertainment destination, but it just feels like a notch below Yorkdale or Chinook now in terms of feeling 'lux', as it seems to be trying to do with courting Louis Vuitton, Yves St Laurent, and Canada Goose.

Originally Posted by Razor

Yes, I found Hamilton interesting too.."Bricky" is a good description.
Hamilton has some great architecture. Like I mentioned in previous post, I liked how separate Hamilton felt from Toronto. It is of course, but keeping a separate soul and character is hard to maintain when you have such a giant next door.

Yeah. Hamilton's really got a distinct vibe that you won't feel from the GTA suburbs, which are more or less an extension of Toronto. The great thing about Hamilton is that you've got this entire distinct city with most things you'd need or want, but you still have the country's biggest city on your doorstep. So this lets you have access to a much larger airport, to bigger concerts, to arts and cultural amenities, and all the other things Toronto offers without dealing with Toronto's negative attributes (expensiveness, congestion, etc).

[ue]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

I think it's safe to say that most of our downtowns are vibrant and are enjoying fast rising populations along with expanded transit infrastructure and service. This helps secure their futures. Most of our inner city neighbourhoods are also doing quite well.

For me the issue is how we reinvigorate our post-war suburban growth. What do we do with all those parking lots, strouds, and empty malls? How can we rid ourselves of our car dependent suburbs?

Increasing density is not always the best option. We have seen this in Vancouver where there are huge developments around SkyTrain stations but they were made possible by throwing the renters out and putting glass boxes in making them nothing more than financially gated communities anchored by a mall.

How do we fix some of these mistakes without dislocating the poor and creating a real sense of place and community as opposed to nothing more than high density, sterile, and alienating blocks of people?

It's definitely going to be costly and annoying to redevelop our postwar suburban growth. And while they're a bit better now, we do keep building them. And the ideology infiltrates the city too whenever it's redeveloped, as kool mentioned. But, it isn't impossible. One of the larger issues is the inefficient and curvelinear road networks that make it harder to densify and harder to do anything but drive. However, just by expropriating some houses to 'connect' roads to each other, and you can get a sort of broken grid. For example:



We need to stop thinking like the modernists and value engineer our way out of this with oddly-scaled buildings and maximized privacy. Then we'll stop building Cityplaces and Coal Harbours.

With regards to displacement, it's an overlooked but very important facet as well. Ultimately, I don't think much will move the needle on that one until we radically realter our society, in this case by decommodifying housing.

[Razor]

Originally Posted by ue

Yeah. Hamilton's really got a distinct vibe that you won't feel from the GTA suburbs, which are more or less an extension of Toronto. The great thing about Hamilton is that you've got this entire distinct city with most things you'd need or want, but you still have the country's biggest city on your doorstep. So this lets you have access to a much larger airport, to bigger concerts, to arts and cultural amenities, and all the other things Toronto offers without dealing with Toronto's negative attributes (expensiveness, congestion, etc).

True..Hamilton's is situated in a good spot for bigger city services + they have Buffalo on their other door step if those concert tickets are too expensive in Toronto! ha.

[ssiguy]

It will be difficult but most of the issue will not be financial but rather political. 80% of the City of Vancouver is zoned for SFH and the blow back from any form of higher density {even row/townhomes or duplexes} has made it nearly impossible.

For more open minded cities there are small things that can be done such as getting home owners to open up small pathways between there house and the ones behind to allow for the freer flow of people and making it easier to access transit. This can be built by giving the homeowners a 1 or 2 year property tax holiday.

Greatly increasing the parking taxes while simultaneously reducing civic fees for new buildings creates a carrot/stick inducement for land owners to develop those parking lots or sell them to someone who will. It is self-financing.

Ridding ourselves of one the most obscene waste of precious urban land and creating mixed use and mid-density, and self sustaining communities..............getting rid of our damn urban golf courses. Again, this is self financed as the needed infrastructure is paid for by the sale of the land.

The closing of many inner city schools allows the BoE to sell the land but it always goes to the highest bidder who builds housing only the wealthy can afford. That money & buildings should go back to City for low income and mid-density housing.

More sidewalks and bike-lanes are necessary but so are things like mass tree planting which adds a sense of warmth and intimacy to a neighourhood.

There are many different ways we can recreate our urban landscape that do have to be expensive and can in fact become net revenue generators for the cities. It simply requires imagination, good planning, and {above all} political will.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by ue

Something I was musing about last night was West Edmonton Mall. It really is such an odd place. For those that haven't been, most think about how vast it is and maybe the different big attractions (like Galaxyland or the Waterpark). It's the city's busiest mall and arguably its most premium as well. But because it's so big, there's also more low end retailers. It really has quite a range.

About 8-10 years ago they started to renovate a lot of the mall, to update it with the times. A lot of malls have done this. I lamented the removal of the unique, if kitsch, elements of the mall because there was a lot of fun to it. Because the mall is so big, it made more sense to renovate in phases. But the weird thing is it feels like they just stopped randomly and haven't done any new renovations in several years despite chunks of the old mall remaining. WEM has always been piecemeal, but at least before it had consistent flooring!

I contrast this with other premium malls in Canada, like Yorkdale, Carrefour Laval, or Chinook, all of which have had relatively recent renovations. These malls aren't as big as WEM nor do they have the myriad of attractions, but they are, for what they are, a lot nicer. WEM's corridors are long, but have short ceilings and many parts lack decent natural light and can feel dingy. These other malls have emphasized natural light and tend to have grand, airy corridors with higher ceilings and wider berths (well this is less so in Chinook, but definitely the other two). These malls lack WEM's character, but they do actually look like a premium mall in a way WEM doesn't. Their renovations were consistent and global, utilizing clean, shiny flooring and wall materials. In WEM, you have the old, dingy 1980s tiling right outside a brand new Louis Vuitton store. But go down the main corridor, and outside Purdy's Chocolates and American Eagle is a new (I want to say granite?) flooring that does feel reminiscent of Yorkdale, but it's only a small section.

On the other hand, many of the renovations, particularly of the 'themed' kitsch attractions, have this bland, fast-casual aesthetic overlaid onto them now that feel so lifeless compared to the fun kitsch they once were (I'm thinking of Bourbon St and Chinatown). The quality and character of the mall has gone downhill while the aspirational upgrades haven't held up or are a patchwork.

Anyway, all of this is to say that while Edmonton did think "big" with WEM and it did have some really outlandish sites, it is now becoming sterilized and the renovations are half-assed. It doesn't really feel like it's thinking big anymore and the mall is resting on its laurels a bit. It can afford to coast, I guess, because it is such a strong shopping and entertainment destination, but it just feels like a notch below Yorkdale or Chinook now in terms of feeling 'lux', as it seems to be trying to do with courting Louis Vuitton, Yves St Laurent, and Canada Goose.

You really put your finger on something I felt about WEM but couldn't really articulate. I remember when I was student in Edmonton in the early 00s I didn't ever go there, I kind of had that twentysomething SSP too cool for school stance where I thought WEM was beneath me.

Then one day I did go and I realized I forgot how amazing it is. It is more than a mall, it is practically a small city in its own right. And I appreciated the parts which weren't renovated (which at that time was pretty well all of it, IIRC). It meant that different parts of the mall had wildly different identities. Phase 1 which felt like a normal, sleepy suburban mall... the phase II food court which was straight out of the 80s and had mega-nostalgia for someone like me who has memories there from that decade, the super 80s mall culture infused phase III with all of its entertainment options, and the ultimately forgettable afterthought 90s vibes of phase IV.

But that dingy next to luxe vibe is something cool and unique among malls. I'm sure the landlord and tenants both see that as a shortcoming that they're working to remedy, but it gives the mall a more legitimate urban feel, at least as much as a suburban mall can have that. The dingy little shop across the hall from a pricy designer boutique has certain Asian mega-city Hong Kong-like vibes which you don't see very often in North America. It gives the whole place a certain character and I appreciate that. You certainly don't get that feeling from Triple 5's other megamall that I've been to (the much more cohesively dull Mall of America... I've never been to the one they built in New Jersey).

[MolsonExport]

MoA in Minneapolis is probably one of the most disappointingly boring tourist attractions I have ever had time to waste upon. Extremely dull.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

MoA in Minneapolis is probably one of the most disappointingly boring tourist attractions I have ever had time to waste upon. Extremely dull.

MoA sucks. It's only good if you need a sweater or if your kids are young enough to appreciate the small indoor amusement park, but as a tourist attraction it is uninteresting. WEM blows it out of the water IMO.

That said, they did give MoA a makeover not too long ago so at least it looks kind of nice compared to the ugly 90s decor that permeated much of the place until recently.

[thewave46]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

MoA in Minneapolis is probably one of the most disappointingly boring tourist attractions I have ever had time to waste upon. Extremely dull.

Mall of America. What an apt physical metaphor for suburban North America.

Bland, yet seemingly endless. Sameness stretched out farther than one could ever imagine. Overwhelming in size, underwhelming in interest. A Wal-Mart supersized to encompass every niche of the shopping experience.

Perfect for those who go to another place just so they can do the same things as at home.

[ssiguy]

As far as WEM, it may not have done major renovations to all of the mall because it's not a very profitable one when it comes to sales per square meter. According to the Canadian Shopping Centre study of 2018 done by the Retail Council of Canada, it only is 30th in Canada by this metric.

It has sales of $767 compared to #1 Yorkdale at $1905 and even Edmonton's South Centre is much higher with $1160 at #5. It is even well back from some mid-size city malls like Waterloo's Conestoga, London's Masonville, and Halifax Shopping Centre.

[Truenorth00]

Just a reminder. This country has a ridiculous amount of retail square footage per capita:

• United States 23.5
• Canada 16.8
• Australia 11.2
• United Kingdom 4.6
• Japan 4.4
• Netherlands 4.1
• France 3.8
• Switzerland 3.6
• Spain 3.4
• China 2.8
• Italy 2.8
• Taiwan 2.4
• Thailand 2.3

Source: https://www.statista.com/statistics/1058852/retail-space-per-capita-selected-countries-worldwide/

I don't think it's a coincidence that the countries with the most sprawl have ridiculous amounts of retail space too. But given our substantially higher servicing costs compared to Australia and the US (with our cost climate), and our relatively lower incomes and higher debt levels (compared to the US), I'm always surprised that we're second in the top 3. Seems to me that we could stand to convert a ton of retail into housing in this country.

[MolsonExport]

^these figures are made worse by the types of retail that dominate in Japan, etc. vs. Canada/USA.

Japan still has these wonderful department stores, packed with well-groomed, eager-to-please employees. And so many non-chain, family run interesting boutiques and niche retailers.

Canada? The same shitty mix of 20-40 stores at every location, using the same architectural plans, surrounded by billions of parking spots. Canadian Tire. Mark's. Walmart. Dollarama. Homesense. Winners. Ricki's. Michael's. LCBO. Payless Shoe Source. Bulk Barn. Lowe's. Subway. Some shitty TacoHell/DirtyBird combo restaurant.



THEY ALL LOOK THE SAME.

As of 2017, SmartCentres had 154 shopping centres and $9.4 billion worth in assets.

[Hali87]

WEM is certainly unique and is another feature of Edmonton that makes me feel that city is one that's all about maximizing the indoor experience. It never really felt specifically "high end" or "luxury" to me - anything really high-end to be found there seemed incidental - but the sheer scale of it all allows it to be a lot more than just "a very large shopping mall". Much as Vancouver is a place where one can ski, golf, and go to the beach all in one day, Edmonton is a place where one can shop at Louis Vuitton and Dollarama, go swimming, bungee jumping, play hockey, catch a movie, golf, and ride a roller coaster all without going outside. There's an almost Vegas-like quality in areas where they just went all-in on totally unnecessary but undeniably interesting stuff that makes WEM more than the sum of its parts and more than just a "really big mall"... this type of stuff:


Source

I consider this the other side of the coin when it comes to Edmonton urbanism - the outdoor-facing stuff tends to be very no-frills and functionalist; the savings are spent on indoor spaces. And not always in ways that would occur to people in the rest of the country. I also notice an overall low tendency for self-sorting between "very high-end" vs "mainstream" vs "very cheap" stuff that you might see in a lot of other cities, or between different "types" of retail - retail is retail and that's about as specific as it seems to get in most cases. WEM is a pretty good example of this, for reasons that others have pointed out.

I know the typical urbanist perspective is probably that WEM drained the life from Downtown Edmonton and some of the neighbourhood retail streets, but I think in Edmonton's case what we ended up with is more interesting than what otherwise might have been. The sublime absurdity of WEM doesn't really translate easily to conventional city-building.

I can't really think of anything close to that on this side of the country - an interesting counterpoint would have been Toronto's collection of big indie retailers downtown (Honest Ed's, Sam's, World's Biggest Jean Store, etc - antithetical to WEM but also kitschy and "all things to everyone" in its own way) but that's been steadily disappearing

In a weird way, WEM reminds me a lot of Moncton, reimagined as a singular building.

Edit: it could use some permanent residents, and a ski hill. Other than that...

[ue]

Originally Posted by esquire

You really put your finger on something I felt about WEM but couldn't really articulate. I remember when I was student in Edmonton in the early 00s I didn't ever go there, I kind of had that twentysomething SSP too cool for school stance where I thought WEM was beneath me.

Then one day I did go and I realized I forgot how amazing it is. It is more than a mall, it is practically a small city in its own right. And I appreciated the parts which weren't renovated (which at that time was pretty well all of it, IIRC). It meant that different parts of the mall had wildly different identities. Phase 1 which felt like a normal, sleepy suburban mall... the phase II food court which was straight out of the 80s and had mega-nostalgia for someone like me who has memories there from that decade, the super 80s mall culture infused phase III with all of its entertainment options, and the ultimately forgettable afterthought 90s vibes of phase IV.

But that dingy next to luxe vibe is something cool and unique among malls. I'm sure the landlord and tenants both see that as a shortcoming that they're working to remedy, but it gives the mall a more legitimate urban feel, at least as much as a suburban mall can have that. The dingy little shop across the hall from a pricy designer boutique has certain Asian mega-city Hong Kong-like vibes which you don't see very often in North America. It gives the whole place a certain character and I appreciate that. You certainly don't get that feeling from Triple 5's other megamall that I've been to (the much more cohesively dull Mall of America... I've never been to the one they built in New Jersey).

I think growing up in the city with the original megamall also left a fascination with malls more broadly. They can be terrible, soul-sucking places, but they're intriguing as an ideological project and as a community hub for postwar capitalist societies. In Winnipeg, I had this itching curiosity to see its malls, and while none of them really are like WEM (although I do appreciate how much of a time capsule Portage Place is), I still needed to see for myself. I've done the same with my time in Toronto, too.

I think my main frustration right now is that the Ghermezians seem to have struck this half-assed middle ground. They wanted to update the mall, and then never finished. A lot of the updates also are really quite boring compared to the whimsical kitsch it replaced. Most of Galaxyland is still intact, but you're already seeing the new Hasbro-branded stuff take over slowly. Chinatown may as well not exist save the T&T and bubble tea place. Bourbon Street looks like anywhere and nowhere at the same time. They also chose to redo parts of the mall to have a more 'premium' look in areas that don't have premium retailers. It doesn't make sense - but perhaps that was the point all along.

I do appreciate your point about WEM having an almost urban realism to it, due to the contrasts and juxtapositions. I agree. And the mall really is more than just a mall. It is a behemoth, but a behemoth with far more character than your usual mall.

[ue]

Originally Posted by Hali87

WEM is certainly unique and is another feature of Edmonton that makes me feel that city is one that's all about maximizing the indoor experience. It never really felt specifically "high end" or "luxury" to me - anything really high-end to be found there seemed incidental - but the sheer scale of it all allows it to be a lot more than just "a very large shopping mall". Much as Vancouver is a place where one can ski, golf, and go to the beach all in one day, Edmonton is a place where one can shop at Louis Vuitton and Dollarama, go swimming, bungee jumping, play hockey, catch a movie, golf, and ride a roller coaster all without going outside. There's an almost Vegas-like quality in areas where they just went all-in on totally unnecessary but undeniably interesting stuff that makes WEM more than the sum of its parts and more than just a "really big mall"... this type of stuff:


Source

I consider this the other side of the coin when it comes to Edmonton urbanism - the outdoor-facing stuff tends to be very no-frills and functionalist; the savings are spent on indoor spaces. And not always in ways that would occur to people in the rest of the country. I also notice an overall low tendency for self-sorting between "very high-end" vs "mainstream" vs "very cheap" stuff that you might see in a lot of other cities, or between different "types" of retail - retail is retail and that's about as specific as it seems to get in most cases. WEM is a pretty good example of this, for reasons that others have pointed out.

I know the typical urbanist perspective is probably that WEM drained the life from Downtown Edmonton and some of the neighbourhood retail streets, but I think in Edmonton's case what we ended up with is more interesting than what otherwise might have been. The sublime absurdity of WEM doesn't really translate easily to conventional city-building.

I can't really think of anything close to that on this side of the country - an interesting counterpoint would have been Toronto's collection of big indie retailers downtown (Honest Ed's, Sam's, World's Biggest Jean Store, etc - antithetical to WEM but also kitschy and "all things to everyone" in its own way) but that's been steadily disappearing

In a weird way, WEM reminds me a lot of Moncton, reimagined as a singular building.

Edit: it could use some permanent residents, and a ski hill. Other than that...

Thanks for this post, I really enjoyed reading it.

I never really considered Edmonton's hodgepodge as this quality of just having completely disparate things thrust against each other. But, yeah, it kind of makes sense. I feel like you can see this a bit in Toronto too, due to the way it strongly outgrew its pre-war identity and fabric. But Toronto isn't absurd in the way Edmonton can be. WEM is a huge emblem of the absurdity Edmonton has, but it isn't the only example. A downtown-adjacent power centre that is built around an old brick Molson brewery. An Amsterdam-inspired strip mall named after an English city next to the city's oldest cemetery, some 2000s stucco condos, and infill duplexes. A car dealership on the city's premier main street. And of course, the random assortment of businesses and services, lacking any rhyme or reason half the time.

Your point about Edmonton being outwardly functionalist but its savings being spent on nice interiors is interesting, too. I'll have to think about that one some more. Off the top of my head, though, it makes me think about Edmonton's new downtown library. Universally panned for its battleship exterior, its interior, while no Calgary Central Library, is not bad.


https://www.huffpost.com/archive/ca/entr...media-reacts_ca_5d2e5a8ae4b0a873f643495c


https://edmontonjournal.com/news/local-n...-edmonton-library-has-some-folks-fuming/


https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/edmonton-public-library-reopening-1.5724880


https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/edmonton-public-library-reopening-1.5724880

[MolsonExport]

Edmonton has a seaworthy port after all.