DENVER | Main Development Thread #7

[bunt_q]

Originally Posted by Robert.hampton

I think the biggest problem I have with this argument (which is similar to the pitch from the mayors office) is that I don't know anyone that says 'man, I miss when we the coliseum was a really nice building! We are missing out on X, Y, or Z now!'

Short of hosting the next incarnation of sxsw, what exactly is the X,Y and Z we are missing out on that isn't covered by pepsi center/1st bank/ogden/fillmore/levitt/mission ball room/red rocks? And if the was such an obvious gap, wouldn't the mission ball room have been designed to fill it?

On a separate note -- a transformational outdoor venue seems a lot more timely right now compared to an indoor arena. I'd go to a show at millenium park 10x out of 10 over whatever they build at the stock show.

There's a whole list of events that are not covered by Pepsi Center/1st Bank. Red Rocks overlaps, but Red Rocks is seasonal. We very much need a winter Red Rocks, and the Pepsi Center is too large.

And no, Mission Ballroom was not designed for the same market segment. Mission is a very specific (and very good) purpose built facility. You think the folks who built Mission haven't been involved in NWC discussions? Of course they have.

Also, the NWC might very well have a large outdoor venue too; everybody agrees there is a serious need for that in Denver. I don't think you guys actually have any idea what the vision for that site holds.

Now, has any of this discussion been part of the lackluster sales pitch? Nope. And that is tragic. That said, "save the Stock Show" polls better and is probably a better strategy for winning - notwithstanding what "new Denver" tech bros might say. As proponents are fond of saying, the last stock show bond measure passed handily in every single precinct in Denver. My problem is not that the bond includes the arena, it's that it doesn't include any plan for actually finishing the campus, as Robin Kniech pointed out.

[Robert.hampton]

Originally Posted by bunt_q

This is not true. Only two arenas in America that have been built without public subsidy of some kind; and none without a major sport primary tenant. Need (or desire) for an arena for a community, and ability for an arena to pay for its own capital and operating costs are not correlated.

(I actually do this stuff for a living, so I am not really talking out of my ass on this one, like I do so often on other topics.)

Also, 1ST Bank and the NWC arena would serve a different mix of events, they're only competing with one another at the margins. (There have been multiple studies done on this.)

So why isn't this being financed through special district financing like the 1st bank center?

[bunt_q]

Originally Posted by Arapahoe

You seem to forget this isn't just about music, it is a gigantic conference that requires a convention center and thousands of hotel rooms - over 400,000 people attend, many traveling for it. Sure NWC could host some stuff, but without downtown it would be virtually impossible to host something on that scale. PERIOD. A couple boutique hotels in RiNo don't cut it.

Sure. The hotels can be downtown. That's good for downtown. The main event venues are not downtown, and never will be, unless we go back in time 100 years. Not sure how that is relevant to Civic Center? It's not like anybody attending conventions in Denver is spending time in Civic Center Park; they pass through and try not to make eye contact with anybody as they whisk by in their Uber to Cherry Creek.

[bunt_q]

Originally Posted by Robert.hampton

So why isn't this being financed through special district financing like the 1st bank center?

Only the public infrastructure was financed by the special district, and that will be true for NWC too. There's less development base (it's a smaller site) but tax increment and district revenues will be part of the mix long-term. It's not enough to pay for an arena though - it's not enough in any city.

[Robert.hampton]

Originally Posted by bunt_q

There's a whole list of events that are not covered by Pepsi Center/1st Bank. Red Rocks overlaps, but Red Rocks is seasonal. We very much need a winter Red Rocks, and the Pepsi Center is too large.

I'll make this my last comment on this topic -- I think the city will have a very hard time selling this if the voters don't 'feel' like this fills a gap that exists in Denver. Most people felt not having a baseball stadium was a gap that should be filled. Most people felt not having a rail system in the metro was a gap that should be filled. Most people felt not having a state-of-the-art convention center was a gap that should be filled. And I think those were all views that were widely shared before the topic came to the ballot.

By contrast I think there are very few people that feel there is a gap in this city for venues that host events in the 6,000-10,000 capacity range, or that building one will greatly enhance the quality of life in Denver. Maybe that narrative can be developed, but I think we'll see a lot of people like myself who will vote against a bond package for the first time in their life.

[Arapahoe]

Originally Posted by bunt_q

Sure. The hotels can be downtown. That's good for downtown. The main event venues are not downtown, and never will be, unless we go back in time 100 years. Not sure how that is relevant to Civic Center? It's not like anybody attending conventions in Denver is spending time in Civic Center Park; they pass through and try not to make eye contact with anybody as they whisk by in their Uber to Cherry Creek.

I didn't actually say anything about Civic Center park.

I just keep hearing delusions of grandeur about NWC being a bustling & popular four-season attraction that would host something like SXSW. I think most reasonable folks would find that a bit aspirational to put it kindly. (the hot tub and spa sale is a LONG effing way from SXSW)

If you are indeed right that a new arena suddenly makes NWC an attractive venue for something more than the "turf grass conference" with 8,000 pick-up trucks in a giant parking lot, than I would be absolutely delighted.

I for one agree with Hampton that we should focus resources where the people actually are and where our citizens benefit in daily life, Civic Center comes to mind, 5280 trail, etc... Sorry sounding like a broken record now, this will be my last post on this topic.

[TakeFive]

Oh Well
while I once dreamed of spectacular transit oriented development (with 30-story buildings) at the coming light rail station SEC of Leetsdale and Monaco,

Still, I'm happy that this wasteland will be redeveloped into neighbor approved and city certified new housing, etc




Renderings courtesy of Forum Real Estate Group

https://monacoevansdenver.com/

We appreciated all of the feedback we received from the public on this project... We are excited to be redeveloping the vacant K-Mart site into a new community that will replace the existing 13 acre
parking lot and include a new one acre public open space, two acres of new 5-10 foot sidewalks with tree lawns attached to new public streets

The site plan sounds good.

Phase I construction of the project is anticipated to start in late 2021 / early 2022 and will include two new public streets (E. Warren Avenue and E. Newport Street) and new landscaped sidewalks
along all street frontages including S. Monaco Street Parkway and E. Evans Avenue. In addition, we will be constructing a new publicly accessible community open space along S. Monaco Parkway.

[TakeFive]

Given your tunnel vision, let's talk some demographics

Originally Posted by Arapahoe

If you are indeed right that a new arena suddenly makes NWC an attractive venue for something more than the "turf grass conference" with 8,000 pick-up trucks in a giant parking lot, than I would be absolutely delighted.

I for one agree with Hampton that we should focus resources where the people actually are and where our citizens benefit in daily life, Civic Center comes to mind, 5280 trail, etc... Sorry sounding like a broken record now, this will be my last post on this topic.

Downtown Denver has about 25,000 residents; add in the close-by neighborhoods for say 75,000 residents. Meanwhile the City of Denver now has close to 725,000 residents.

Of the 75,000 resident pie I have no idea who would and wouldn't be interested in dramatic improvements to the Civic Center let along the 5280 Trail but I suspect you are way over-estimating the allure for these items. I suspect many could give two chits about improving Civic Center but many might be OK with it.

Of the 725,000 total pie many, many have already experienced the events held at the Civic Center and don't forget that (oh my gosh) even people from Aurora and Littleton have come down to the Civic Center for said events.

I'll make a wild guess since I really don't know but chances are reasonably good that of the 725,000 residents that those over 40 year's old do indeed appreciate the history and tradition of the Denver Stock Show along with (again) people from all over the metro area and out-of-town & out-of-state as well.

[Robert.hampton]

Originally Posted by TakeFive

Given your tunnel vision, let's talk some demographics


Downtown Denver has about 25,000 residents; add in the close-by neighborhoods for say 75,000 residents. Meanwhile the City of Denver now has close to 725,000 residents.

Of the 75,000 resident pie I have no idea who would and wouldn't be interested in dramatic improvements to the Civic Center let along the 5280 Trail but I suspect you are way over-estimating the allure for these items. I suspect many could give two chits about improving Civic Center but many might be OK with it.

Of the 725,000 total pie many, many have already experienced the events held at the Civic Center and don't forget that (oh my gosh) even people from Aurora and Littleton have come down to the Civic Center for said events.

I'll make a wild guess since I really don't know but chances are reasonably good that of the 725,000 residents that those over 40 year's old do indeed appreciate the history and tradition of the Denver Stock Show along with (again) people from all over the metro area and out-of-town & out-of-state as well.

Tldr- I don’t even live in this city and don’t know what I am talking about but here’s a bunch of gibberish.

[bunt_q]

Originally Posted by Arapahoe

I think most reasonable folks would find that a bit aspirational to put it kindly. (the hot tub and spa sale is a LONG effing way from SXSW)

I don't disagree with this. But the current facilities are absolute garbage, so of course the events they host are garbage. Stapleton was a LONG effing way from DIA too. The vision wasn't ever to build on the hot tub shows; it was to replace them.

Originally Posted by Robert.hampton

I'll make this my last comment on this topic -- I think the city will have a very hard time selling this if the voters don't 'feel' like this fills a gap that exists in Denver. Most people felt not having a baseball stadium was a gap that should be filled. Most people felt not having a rail system in the metro was a gap that should be filled. Most people felt not having a state-of-the-art convention center was a gap that should be filled. And I think those were all views that were widely shared before the topic came to the ballot.

By contrast I think there are very few people that feel there is a gap in this city for venues that host events in the 6,000-10,000 capacity range, or that building one will greatly enhance the quality of life in Denver. Maybe that narrative can be developed, but I think we'll see a lot of people like myself who will vote against a bond package for the first time in their life.

Agree with this too. I think it'll be a hard sell. If it weren't for the fact that Denver voters seem willing to vote for damn near anything, I would even say I agree, I do not think this will pass.

Although, I do think it will be the end of the Stock Show in Denver if it doesn't pass. And I would find that sad.

[TakeFive]

Nice Try but No Cigar

Originally Posted by Robert.hampton

Tldr- I don’t even live in this city and don’t know what I am talking about but here’s a bunch of gibberish.

Thinking of Denver's excellent description... and something I value. The Stock Show is a wonderful experience for children and certainly outside of downtown, Denver has lots of children. To be able to see and touch these animals up close and personal is enriching.

Let me check.... Yup!

https://nationalwestern.com/kids-activities/school-visits/

Take a field trip to the biggest agricultural event in Colorado!

The School Visits program is open to all grades 1st through 12th. Content is geared toward grades 1st through 6th, but all grade levels are encouraged to join.

If you register with the National Western Stock Show School Visits program...
A 4-H County Extension Agent and an NWSS Volunteer will visit your classroom to prepare you and your students for a successful field trip to the Stock Show. While your students participate in a fun educational agricultural activity, you will be learning the ins and outs of a trip to our complex.

[Arapahoe]

Originally Posted by bunt_q

I don't disagree with this. But the current facilities are absolute garbage, so of course the events they host are garbage. Stapleton was a LONG effing way from DIA too. The vision wasn't ever to build on the hot tub shows; it was to replace them.



Agree with this too. I think it'll be a hard sell. If it weren't for the fact that Denver voters seem willing to vote for damn near anything, I would even say I agree, I do not think this will pass.

Although, I do think it will be the end of the Stock Show in Denver if it doesn't pass. And I would find that sad.

Why do you think not having a new arena will kill the Stock Show? They filled the Coliseum with dirt and had a rodeo in there. That aint gonna to change. Construction continues on the new Stockyards Event Center. Scheduled for completion this summer, this 46,000-square-foot facility will debut at the 2022 Stock Show.

You talking out your ass again? (your terminology, not mine)

[TakeFive]

Speaking of biking and amenities that Denver is helping to fund


• Video Link

https://denver.cbslocal.com/2021/09/03/underpasses-high-line-canal-trail-cyclists-excited-safety/

DENVER (CBS4) – Cyclists and runners are celebrating some major improvements along the High Line Canal trail. The underpasses at Hampden Avenue and Colorado Boulevard have been open since June, and reaction is overwhelmingly favorable.

Having started my Denver Life living in University Hills the High Line Canal Trail was the reason I learned to love biking Denver.

[TakeFive]

RiNo celebration ahead


Source


Source


Source

RiNo Art Park to Celebrate Grand Opening September 24-26
September 8, 2021 - Mile High CRE

RiNo Art Park Community Hub, a $4.5 million three-acre cultural center located at 35th and Arkins Court, will celebrate its grand opening with a three-day community celebration September 24-26. The park will become a hub for recreation, creativity, learning, dining and entertainment for all of the downtown Denver neighborhoods that surround it.

“On behalf of the many artists who call RiNo Art District home, we appreciated the Tres Birds team’s ability to see the potential inherent in this building, which was originally slated for demolition,” said John Deffenbaugh, projects director at RiNo Art District. “They brought out the beauty of the raw, industrial elements and helped us realize an incredible level of functionality and a strong connection to place. We could not be more excited to open this new space to the community.”

[wong21fr]

Originally Posted by bunt_q

Although, I do think it will be the end of the Stock Show in Denver if it doesn't pass. And I would find that sad.

Interesting assertion- what’s the logic behind this? Would a delay to the signature event space really be enough for another facility to win out against Denver?

What would really be sad is the ~$750M in existing capital spend that would basically have been pissed away for what would then be the new Denver Flea Market.

[TakeFive]

Originally Posted by wong21fr

Interesting assertion- what’s the logic behind this? Would a delay to the signature event space really be enough for another facility to win out against Denver?

What would really be sad is the ~$750M in existing capital spend that would basically have been pissed away for what would then be the new Denver Flea Market.

I've read there is potential competition for this industry segment. It could potentially make Denver's Stock Show largely irrelevant.

It's just sad that as the Capital of Colorado that Denver wouldn't support all important industries whether on the western slope or the eastern plains or a tech company in downtown, not to mention the potential for various uses.

https://www.coloradovirtuallibrary.org/r...tuesday-the-cattle-industry-in-colorado/

For over 150 years, the cattle industry has been an integral part of Colorado’s agricultural economy and of our state’s history. The State Publications Library collection includes hundreds of documents, both historical and recent, that tell the story of this important industry.

Even Snotsdale aka Scottsdale has its annual Arabian Horse Show while various other events are held throughout the year.

[Arapahoe]

Originally Posted by TakeFive

I've read there is potential competition for this industry segment. It could potentially make Denver's Stock Show largely irrelevant.

wow, so we already paid for and are building at the NWC:

1. Stockyards Auction and Show Arenas
2. Stockyards Event Pavilion/Outdoor Event Space
3. Livestock Stadium Arena
4. Livestock Hall
5. Equestrian Events Center
6. Horse Barn
7. Equestrian Arena
8. CSU Equine Sports Medicine Facility
9. CSU Community Outreach Clinic
10. CSU Clinical Trials Center
11. Enclosed Equestrian Warm Up
12. Covered Equestrian Warm up
13. Maintenance Facility
14. Cattle Ties

And now all that might become irrelevant? You got any sources for that? Why are you supporting a new arena if the primary tenant is soon to be irrelevant?

I'm less and less enthused about NWSS and NWC. Seems like a boondoggle if any of what TakeFive says is more than ramblings.

[TakeFive]

Source

Originally Posted by Arapahoe

Seems like a boondoggle if any of what TakeFive says is more than ramblings.

I'm quite optimistic we won't have to worry about it.

[gopokes21]

Mexican cities actually build state-of-the-art equestrian arenas because after soccer, that's their second biggest sport. Think of it like NBA arenas here.

The equestrian scene is competitive... the current national hubs are Orange County, Denver, Oklahoma City, Louisville, Lexington, and Columbus. I think other cities are trying to get in on the action and it may be a case where a rising tide lifts all boats... it seems eclectic or niche when it's hyper-concentrated in Denver or Louisville but expanding the geography might not hurt Denver.

I played polo in college at OK State and was always surprised that other state schools don't have polo...

[bunt_q]

Originally Posted by Arapahoe

You talking out your ass again? (your terminology, not mine)

I talk out of my ass on other topics, not this one.

Originally Posted by wong21fr

Interesting assertion- what’s the logic behind this? Would a delay to the signature event space really be enough for another facility to win out against Denver?

What would really be sad is the ~$750M in existing capital spend that would basically have been pissed away for what would then be the new Denver Flea Market.

It's not a delay - this isn't RTD where if they wait until 2175, they can finish something. There's no more money unless we give it more money.

And yes, pissing away $750m is a very real possibility at this point. That's more likely than not, actually - that campus is almost certainly going to be left more unfinished than Fastracks.

If I were on the NWSS board, I'd be supportive of relocation to Oklahoma City, to subsume the would-be competitors and keep my place in the pecking order.

Musing a bit. I do wonder if the Stock Show is something that the State should be more involved in, rather than Denver. It's something I have thought a lot about. The rest of the state (where 88% of Coloradans live) outside the capital doesn't have to worry about the decay of civic center and the proliferation of homeless camps. And probably cares more about western heritage than the voters of San Francisco-east. If Denver would prefer to exist as an island apart from the state, rather than the leader of the state, that's a perfectly fine choice. But then, arguably, losing an institution as old as the state shouldn't be left to the whims of the voters of that island.