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  #1601  
Old Posted Aug 28, 2021, 8:50 PM
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Originally Posted by NYguy View Post
I think too much is made of the "green" in these spaces (for example, the Spiral). The green is only there because its outdoor space. When we have these spaces at street level - with trees - no one complains about having foliage for four seasons. The point of that outdoor space is that it's outdoor space. If it's green in the summertime, and cold in the wintertime, well yes. Welcome to New York. It's not supposed to be green year 'round.
That's not really my point, the trouble is the trees die, it's a very common problem. They don't get the drainage/soil/nutrients correct, hot/cold updrafts are too much for them or they don't spend enough on arborists to choose and maintain the right types of trees. Ground level trees are completely different. And as I also stated these outdoor office spaces just don't get used often, and therefore building management stops maintaining them. They're there because it's a trend in architecture which works in the tropics (mostly hanging vines and other tropical plants), looks good in renderings and gives the aura of "green design" but isn't really suitable for a place like NY. Residential might be another story, but you don't see this intensive greenery there because it's understood most wealthy residents are only ensconced a certain number of weeks a year and they will balk at paying the exorbitant fees necessary to maintain 40 or so floors of trees collectively. You do see them sometimes on podiums (where they tend to do fine) or rooftops (where the higher the elevation, the less likely they are to survive for a variety of reasons). This is an ongoing debate in the architecture community, and I'm of the belief that clients are being sold a green rendering in the case of this and the Spiral which will never really exist. Just plant some hardy grasses and call it a day.
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  #1602  
Old Posted Aug 29, 2021, 2:52 PM
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Updated And Additional Renderings For Foster + Partner’s 1,270-Foot Supertall ‘Penn 15’ Spotted, In Midtown, Manhattan





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YIMBY spotted a series of new and updated interior and exterior renderings by DBOX of Penn 15, a massive 1,270-foot supertall designed by Foster + Partners at 15 Penn Plaza. The mammoth 2.8 million-square-foot, 57-story office project is being developed by Vornado Realty Trust and is part of the much larger 7.4 million-square-foot Penn District master plan in Midtown, Manhattan. The redevelopment aims to transform and revitalize the area between Sixth and Seventh Avenues and West 32nd and West 34th Streets with a total of eight new buildings. All of which would surround the 109-year-old James A. Farley Building and Skidmore Owings & Merrill‘s newly opened Moynihan Train Hall, as well as One and Two Penn Plaza and Madison Square Garden, which itself has also seen grandiose proposals to be re-imagined.

We start with looking at the lower levels of Penn 15 from across the street, on the sidewalks by the front doors, and at the soaring height of the main lobby.

The main difference between what we saw in our last article and today is the change in the design of the crown. The new iteration shows a much taller extrusion of the final rectangular volume that continues the design motif of stacked glass boxes, as opposed to the previous version of the edifice that culminated with a short mechanical extension covered in horizontal metal grilles.

Penn 15 will be divided into five tiers that encompass a number of office floors that would be serviced by its own set of express elevators. The highest office level will be 1,165 feet high on the 61st level of the supertall. Inside Penn 15 will be 27 landscaped outdoor terraces, 17- to 19-foot-high ceiling heights, and 90- to 100-foot lease spans.
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  #1603  
Old Posted Aug 29, 2021, 2:56 PM
JMKeynes JMKeynes is offline
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I love this tower.
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  #1604  
Old Posted Aug 29, 2021, 4:13 PM
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I still loathe it, loathe the stacking gimmickry, loathe the tree overload when they're not very likely to come anything close to it. I was hoping Cuomo's resignation would put an end to this eyesore but Vornado seems to be doubling down on it. But hey, it's what the market demands lol... anyway, I can hate it, love it as much as I want and it won't matter one bit to Vornado. Hopefully when it comes to fruition, this tower and how many others develop around it will wind up as a pleasant surprise. Goodness knows I hope so. I have nothing against smart development of this area, making use of density. It is absolutely prime for it as the connection between Penn Station/midtown and the West Side developments. I just wish those in charge had taste, style and vision. That said, the revision of the top of the tower is a modest improvement. Yet a signature tower like that , a signature city like this deserve a soaring, glorious crown. This is just such a waste of an incredible opportunity to redefine the new New York skyline for the century!

Also with Boerumer on the tree thing.
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  #1605  
Old Posted Aug 29, 2021, 6:13 PM
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Originally Posted by citybooster View Post
I still loathe it, loathe the stacking gimmickry, loathe the tree overload when they're not very likely to come anything close to it. I was hoping Cuomo's resignation would put an end to this eyesore but Vornado seems to be doubling down on it.
First of all, this isn't a Cuomo proposal. This tower was approved by the City a decade ago. Almost everyone here knows that by now. And if you think the tree "gimmickry" will come no where close to the rendering, then there's nothing about that for you to complain about.




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Originally Posted by BK1985 View Post
While the design isn’t my favorite, I’m fine with it. We always gripe about how developers are just building boring boxes and don’t do anything new. Well this is something new. Maybe it will work, maybe it won’t. Not every building is going to be an icon.

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Originally Posted by BK1985 View Post
The market has totally changed to the point that the pelli design is outdated. open spaces and wellness are definitely a bigger selling feature for office designs now.

This is definitely a tower that looks more to the future. I And if it were just another blue box, people would be complaining about that as well. It's a big improvement over the Vinoly design (that was terrible).









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Originally Posted by Boerumer View Post
That's not really my point, the trouble is the trees die, it's a very common problem.
It may shock you that there are a lot of trees and plants growing on a variety of buildings in the city. Will some of them die? Maybe. Can they be replaced? Absolutely. Is it something worth stressing over? Absolutely not. Stressing over something that has not happened and may not happen isn't worth it.




Now, I've noticed that this lighting stretches up the length of the tower. It would be nice to get more details about the features of this tower.
























I want to see more of the elevator side reveal.







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  #1606  
Old Posted Aug 29, 2021, 6:48 PM
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Hate the base. Hate the schtick. Hate the trees which are totally disingenuous. Hate all of it. Trade in the architect. Start over.
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  #1607  
Old Posted Aug 30, 2021, 6:35 AM
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Cuomo is the impetus for the multitower development centered around this, you're right it's not his proposal per se... at least not the idea of a big tower here replacing the Hotel Pennsylvania. That started with the Pelli design, which yes, aged poorly and is better off not being built. I even said, I can loathe the building or love the building, but only Vornado is going to decide what to do here. It's a stack of boxes still that as you refer probably won't be covered up by trees. Is this the best Vornado can do? We can still hate it, maybe the lighting plan will be a saving grace... but a chance like this, to develop a slew of signature towers in a signature place... it calls for incredible boldness of vision. Not corporate synergy or whatever claptrap the big shots use to pretend they know what the hell they're talking about. You are free to like it, and maybe some of it will grow on me somehow. But I don't feel compelled at this point to praise the Vornado blueprint to the high heavens.

That said, I DO support the development of those towers... the location and density potential is prime and demands something big and bold but may I also add visionary, and a signature iconic presence in the skyline? 175 Park Avenue...350 Park Avenue type bold and striking.
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  #1608  
Old Posted Aug 30, 2021, 5:04 PM
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Originally Posted by citybooster View Post
Cuomo is the impetus for the multitower development centered around this, you're right it's not his proposal per se... at least not the idea of a big tower here replacing the Hotel Pennsylvania. That started with the Pelli design, which yes, aged poorly and is better off not being built. I even said, I can loathe the building or love the building, but only Vornado is going to decide what to do here. It's a stack of boxes still that as you refer probably won't be covered up by trees. Is this the best Vornado can do? We can still hate it, maybe the lighting plan will be a saving grace... but a chance like this, to develop a slew of signature towers in a signature place... it calls for incredible boldness of vision. Not corporate synergy or whatever claptrap the big shots use to pretend they know what the hell they're talking about. You are free to like it, and maybe some of it will grow on me somehow. But I don't feel compelled at this point to praise the Vornado blueprint to the high heavens.

That said, I DO support the development of those towers... the location and density potential is prime and demands something big and bold but may I also add visionary, and a signature iconic presence in the skyline? 175 Park Avenue...350 Park Avenue type bold and striking.
Agree with you.. this tower is complete trash!!

10 years and counting and this is what Vornado came up with for a tower that will stand one block away from the Empire State.
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  #1609  
Old Posted Aug 30, 2021, 5:42 PM
DCReid DCReid is offline
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Originally Posted by Boerumer View Post
That's not really my point, the trouble is the trees die, it's a very common problem. They don't get the drainage/soil/nutrients correct, hot/cold updrafts are too much for them or they don't spend enough on arborists to choose and maintain the right types of trees. Ground level trees are completely different. And as I also stated these outdoor office spaces just don't get used often, and therefore building management stops maintaining them. They're there because it's a trend in architecture which works in the tropics (mostly hanging vines and other tropical plants), looks good in renderings and gives the aura of "green design" but isn't really suitable for a place like NY. Residential might be another story, but you don't see this intensive greenery there because it's understood most wealthy residents are only ensconced a certain number of weeks a year and they will balk at paying the exorbitant fees necessary to maintain 40 or so floors of trees collectively. You do see them sometimes on podiums (where they tend to do fine) or rooftops (where the higher the elevation, the less likely they are to survive for a variety of reasons). This is an ongoing debate in the architecture community, and I'm of the belief that clients are being sold a green rendering in the case of this and the Spiral which will never really exist. Just plant some hardy grasses and call it a day.
I also wonder if these 'green' terraces will be overrun with birds, pigeons, and insects, especially if they are not used much, and become a nuisance rather than a tranquil oasis. Seems like a good idea on paper, but not in practice. Like superblocks may have been and (dreadfully) housing projects?
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  #1610  
Old Posted Aug 30, 2021, 7:22 PM
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Originally Posted by DCReid View Post
I also wonder if these 'green' terraces will be overrun with birds, pigeons, and insects, especially if they are not used much, and become a nuisance rather than a tranquil oasis. Seems like a good idea on paper, but not in practice. Like superblocks may have been and (dreadfully) housing projects?
I’m sorry but this is an asinine take. We shouldn’t have outdoor spaces because of birds and insects? Yeah ok.
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  #1611  
Old Posted Aug 30, 2021, 8:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Busy Bee View Post
Hate the base. Hate the schtick. Hate the trees which are totally disingenuous. Hate all of it. Trade in the architect. Start over.
Don't worry there is time for a yet another redesign or two I'm sure

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  #1612  
Old Posted Aug 30, 2021, 9:03 PM
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Originally Posted by citybooster View Post
Cuomo is the impetus for the multitower development centered around this, you're right it's not his proposal per se...
The development of which you refer (Empire Station) has nothing to do with this. The only relationship this has with that proposal is as a financial means of expanding the station. In other words, the taxes generated from this skyscraper would go towards the Penn Station expansion south rather than to the City directly. That's it. It's how the city got the 7 line extension built.



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Originally Posted by DCReid View Post
I also wonder if these 'green' terraces will be overrun with birds, pigeons, and insects, especially if they are not used much, and become a nuisance rather than a tranquil oasis.
That's just ridiculous.




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Originally Posted by SkyHigher View Post
Don't worry there is time for a yet another redesign or two I'm sure

All it takes is for a tenant to push for a design change. We saw it happen with Tower 2 at the WTC. (And we're still waiting for yet another change there, with a reversion back to the original). Whatever it takes to get this tower built is what will get it built. One thing for certain, after Vornado waffling on whether or not to redevelop the hotel or build a new tower, the hotel is dead now, and demolition is imminent. The push to build the tower is on.
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  #1613  
Old Posted Aug 31, 2021, 12:17 AM
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I like it
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  #1614  
Old Posted Aug 31, 2021, 4:24 PM
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https://commercialobserver.com/2021/08/office-building-terraces-cost-maintenance/

Office Building Terraces Bloom During COVID
New York developers are hedging their bets on outdoor spaces — yes, even in winter — continuing a long trend





A TERRACE AT ONE WILLOUGHBY SQUARE, A NEW OFFICE TOWER IN DOWNTOWN BROOKLYN



BY DAVID M. LEVITT
AUGUST 31, 2021

Quote:
It started as a nice amenity to have and, as time has marched on, it has become a must-have.

These days, you almost can’t build an office building without including some outdoor space for people to relax on, to work on, or from which to just see the world differently.

And, as COVID increasingly causes people to question why spend so much time in the car or on the train when you can be just as productive on your laptop at your kitchen table, with the delta variant out there and the odds of getting sick dwindling the more time you spend outdoors, outdoor terraces make more sense than ever.
Quote:
”We’ve been involved in office space and building design, and the evolution of office buildings, for 40 years,” said Dan Kaplan, a senior partner at the architecture firm FXCollaborative and designer of One Willoughby Square, a new office tower in Downtown Brooklyn. “And, over the last 10 to 12 years, the demand for exterior space in office buildings has grown, and, with the pandemic, it has really exploded.”
Quote:
In late 2019, before the pandemic hit, commercial real estate brokerage CBRE did a survey and found that of 10 office buildings under construction in Manhattan, nine had outdoor space. Eighteen of the 24 buildings built in the 2010s also had outdoor space.

The trend was particularly visible in new construction in Midtown South, a hotbed for young technology and creative companies, the study said.

Michael Slattery, associate CBRE field research director, New York tri-state region, who co-wrote the study with Nicole LaRusso, CBRE senior director of research and analysis for the Northeast, said the trend has continued since the study.

“Not only have we seen new construction come forth over the last little bit, with the focus on differentiating themselves in a very large market, but a top-class building has all the amenities these tenants are looking for, and green space, outdoor space, is definitely near the top of that list,” Slattery said. “There are plenty of great buildings that are older and vintage, and might not have the ability to activate terraces to provide outdoor space, but this is a place where all owners and landlords are looking to set themselves apart.”
Quote:
Pharmaceutical giant Pfizer, best-known now for being the first to receive Food and Drug Administration approval for its COVID vaccine, agreed in 2018 to move its headquarters to The Spiral, taking about 800,000 square feet in the 2.8 million-square-foot tower. Investment management firm AllianceBernstein agreed the following year to take another 189,000 square feet.

The intention is to make the terraces accessible to employees year-round, Bergmann said, even in winter, though, ultimately, it will be up to tenants to determine the extent of access. Bergmann noted that many New York apartment dwellers have outdoor balconies that they use all year, and he expects the same at The Spiral.

“You can look around in Manhattan and there are plenty of buildings that have outdoor terraces,” he said. “Our hope is that the terraces will still function and offer coworkers a chance to actually get fresh air on the same floor where they have their desks, as opposed to having to travel all the way down to the lobby.”
Quote:
The plan for The Spiral was put together well before COVID became a factor, but at a point where outdoor space was becoming a fairly common enticement. It’s not well known, but Rockefeller Center, which dates from the 1920s and which Tishman Speyer also controls today, has activated rooftops on all of its high-rise buildings, Bergmann said — not to mention the famous pedestrian plaza at its base with its Christmas tree and skating rink.
Quote:
Another example of where the outdoors are being worked in is at what’s now called 660 Fifth Avenue. Brookfield Properties, one of the world’s largest commercial real estate owners, bought the ground lease in 2018 for the tower formerly known as 666 Fifth Avenue. It then announced a makeover.

“We don’t look at it as something that is optional,” said Callie Haines, Brookfield executive vice president and head of the company’s New York and Boston regions. “Outdoor space is part of a larger amenity-rich package that landlords can be offering.”

The 39-story tower at 660, built in the 1950s, is undergoing a $400 million redevelopment, which will include an entirely new utility system. Like a lot of Manhattan office skyscrapers, it was built with a tall, narrow tower jutting out from a broad base. The Brookfield plan is to take advantage of the base by opening the top of it to tenants, creating an eighth-floor outdoor space. The company also plans to open up ledges on the 10th, 11th and 15th floors. Each tenant will have the opportunity to hire their own designer to finish out the space, and to determine what to do with it in the winter.
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  #1615  
Old Posted Aug 31, 2021, 4:41 PM
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The one company that I can envision anchoring this tower is Amazon. I hope that they do.
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  #1616  
Old Posted Sep 1, 2021, 4:19 AM
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They love to show the side of this building with the beautiful open windows but not the side facing north with the giant blank wall.
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  #1617  
Old Posted Sep 1, 2021, 5:42 AM
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Originally Posted by NYC2ATX View Post
They love to show the side of this building with the beautiful open windows but not the side facing north with the giant blank wall.
It won’t be a blank wall.
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  #1618  
Old Posted Sep 1, 2021, 12:13 PM
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It won't be blank, but it will be a concrete wall, still fugly AF at that height.
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  #1619  
Old Posted Sep 1, 2021, 2:01 PM
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It won't be blank, but it will be a concrete wall, still fugly AF at that height.
Oh you’ve seen the north face already? Please fill us in on the details.
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  #1620  
Old Posted Sep 1, 2021, 3:52 PM
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There's a rendering already out with a glimpse of the north face, showing glass shafts with the elevator cars and counterweights visible.

Who knows whether that is wishful thinking though, as the concrete shear walls seem to be hard up against the north facade in the floor plans posted by NYGuy at reply#1461:
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