DENVER | Main Development Thread #7

[Robert.hampton]

I think this bond package will have a real hard time passing. No one is buying the National Western Complex vision (including investors, which is why this is coming to a bond in the first place) and the rest of the projects are pretty visionless and filled with a bunch of deferred maintenance.

I'd rather spend all this money on a safe outdoor site in every neighborhood and then throw the rest of the unsanctioned campers in jail.

[Arapahoe]

Originally Posted by Robert.hampton

I think this bond package will have a real hard time passing. No one is buying the National Western Complex vision (including investors, which is why this is coming to a bond in the first place) and the rest of the projects are pretty visionless and filled with a bunch of deferred maintenance.

I'd rather spend all this money on a safe outdoor site in every neighborhood and then throw the rest of the unsanctioned campers in jail.

AMEN!!

[Denver]

New project (to me): 2700 Wewatta Way

Milender White, Urban Ventures and Rivet Development Partners are teaming together with Shears Adkins Rockmore Architects to build affordable housing in Denargo Market, a neighborhood just north of downtown Denver. The five-story apartment building, located at 2700 Wewatta Way, will provide permanently affordable housing for transition-age youths ages 18-25 years old. The community will provide opportunity for this age group to move out of poverty and instability due to trauma and homelessness and into an adult life filled with support and possibility for social enterprise and growth.

Construction type is wood-frame over concrete podium utilizing prefabricated wood wall panels built off-site by Milender White. The project will provide 56 one and two-bedroom units as well as common residential amenity spaces, a social enterprise retail space and only six surface parking stalls taking advantage of Denver’s new urban parking requirements.

The Milender White preconstruction team is currently working closely with the design team and ownership to create an efficient design. Pending LIHTC approval in November 2021, construction is expected to begin in Q2 2022.

[TakeFive]

Originally Posted by gopokes21

Well it would help if Denver would spend down its Elevate Denver bond program, or even half... before asking the voters for another bond package.

Interesting to compare and contrast.

Nov of 2007 voters passed the Better Denver Bond Program

• Mayor John Hickenlooper formed an Infrastructure Task Force in 2004
• In 2006, Mayor Hickenlooper formed the 115-member Infrastructure Priorities Task Force
• In 2007, Denver’s citizens passed the ballot initiatives that established the Better Denver Bond Program ... The City provided funding for more than 380 projects

I can recall posting about several projects in the 2011 to 2013 time period.

The Elevate Denver Bond Program approved November 2017.
"Featuring more than 500 projects over 10 years, this $937 million program will fix our streets and create new ways to get around town

• May 1, 2018 the First List of projects resulted from issuing $193 ml in bonds.
• May 6, 2019 the Second List of projects from issuing $82 ml bonds; a smaller list focused on Cultural facilities.
• October 15, 2019. the Third List, another long list of projects from issuance of $117.25 ml bonds.
• November 2, 2020 the Fourth List of projects from issuing $170 ml in bonds.

So far $562 ml in bonds have been issued out of $937 that the voters authorized.

[bunt_q]

Originally Posted by Robert.hampton

I think this bond package will have a real hard time passing. No one is buying the National Western Complex vision (including investors, which is why this is coming to a bond in the first place)

Well this is definitely not true. The market didn't cancel the P3, the City did. (Now, it wasn't going to be free...but it was never going to pay for itself; there are only two arenas in the U.S. that ever have. And the rest of the campus was definitely going to need public help; nobody ever said livestock events were standalone money-makers. But investors were very much interested and it was going to be much cheaper for the City long term.)

To be fair, the City actually views deferred maintenance as being a key part of the every-10-year-bond-programs. They've never been big on vision. We just do not have a capital program in Denver at all, really, outside of the periodic bond issuances, so the bond programs are the only place where there is any scope for vision at all. But they have always served to pay for major maintenance that we do not fund annually. (To tie back to the last point - this makes P3 projects look more expensive, because the maintenance costs that the City normally defers get priced in; the private guys are not contractually allowed to defer maintenance. Makes it really hard to do an apples-to-apples cost comparison.)

[TakeFive]

Originally Posted by Robert.hampton

I think this bond package will have a real hard time passing. No one is buying the National Western Complex vision (including investors, which is why this is coming to a bond in the first place) and the rest of the projects are pretty visionless and filled with a bunch of deferred maintenance.

I'd rather spend all this money on a safe outdoor site in every neighborhood and then throw the rest of the unsanctioned campers in jail.

The only thing "investors" would have been involved in was a proposed P3 which was always a reach. There was a brief period when many thought P3's could be some type of panacea.

Most of the National Western Center projects were to be funded by the 'tourism' tax per voter approval. Investors bought the bonds is all. First problem was there was a boatload of new or changed infrastructure projects needed. 2nd, the tourism tax is currently a dumpster fire.

Originally Posted by bunt_q

I actually think it’s the opposite. I think after a period of very large projects (which are still underway), people are scared to death of any more large projects, we have megaproject paralysis around Denver. (As a person whose career is doing these, it’s not great for me.) The problem is that we’re actually not great at project delivery (as evidenced by Elevate), so doing more smaller projects just slows everything down.

Colorado and Denver have a process problem.

The one saving grace may be the bipartisan infrastructure bill. Read somewhere that Federal funds could cover up to 90% of the cost - not sure where or how this specifically works. Additionally, presumably voter approval won't be necessary if they don't need to raise taxes.

Originally Posted by bunt_q

Agree completely on the bond programs. Also, to put a new arena into the bond program with no plans for completing the facilities that we already voted, let alone the remainder of the stock show campus, is also disingenuous. That’s the worst part, they’ll actually end up coming back for a third or fourth time before it’s complete. (As Robin Kniech pointed out.)

How quickly we forget. The Pandemic did slow things down for a period of time.

The arena is the one, next critical piece; the rest of the vision can happen over time. Early priority (in addition to infrastructure) went towards CSU's "Spur" facilities which is a Great Idea IMO.

[TakeFive]

I think I missed this one; good find.

Originally Posted by Denver

New project (to me): 2700 Wewatta Way

Milender White, Urban Ventures and Rivet Development Partners are teaming together with Shears Adkins Rockmore Architects to build affordable housing in Denargo Market, a neighborhood just north of downtown Denver. The five-story apartment building, located at 2700 Wewatta Way, will provide permanently affordable housing for transition-age youths ages 18-25 years old.

The Milender White preconstruction team is currently working closely with the design team and ownership to create an efficient design. Pending LIHTC approval in November 2021, construction is expected to begin in Q2 2022.

Milender White

I'm also looking forward to CDOT's old headquarters at 4201 Arkansas Ave 'winning' LIHTC approval.

David Sachs/Denverite penned a good piece about the old CDOT site as well as the competition for LIHTC's.

What ever happened to the big development with affordable homes planned on the old CDOT campus in Virginia Village?
Mar. 05, 2021

The residential portion includes 150 homes for people making 60 percent of the area median income or less, or about $54,000 for a household of three. Kentro Group, the developer, has secured federal tax credits. But it has had trouble getting state tax credits, which companies can get for building affordable housing. The credits are competitive; developers, nonprofits and local government agencies apply to the Colorado Housing and Finance Authority to get them and they’re necessary to make the project worthwhile for Kentro’s profit goals, said Chris Viscardi, director of development for Kentro. But Kentro has applied twice and not been approved.

[bunt_q]

Originally Posted by TakeFive

The only thing "investors" would have been involved in was a proposed P3 which was always a reach. There was a brief period when many thought P3's could be some type of panacea.

This isn't really accurate.

Originally Posted by TakeFive

Most of the National Western Center projects were to be funded by the 'tourism' tax per voter approval. Investors bought the bonds is all. First problem was there was a boatload of new or changed infrastructure projects needed. 2nd, the tourism tax is currently a dumpster fire.

The voted bonds only covered Phases 1-2. (And in the end, due to overruns, have only built about half of those.)

The P3 would have operated Phases 1-2 (since nobody over thought about how operations would be paid for) and constructed and operated Phases 3-8, which were never funded.

Originally Posted by TakeFive

There was a brief period when many thought P3's could be some type of panacea.

There was a brief period when folks thought P3s meant free money, but that passed a long time ago. The argument for the P3 at National Western was (1) unified operations over the entire site, (2) event programming coordinated with those operations, (3) coordinated construction on a very difficult site where phasing is everything, and (4) capturing private real estate value in a way that really can't really be done unless somebody is coordinating the big picture site plan and site development.

Originally Posted by TakeFive

First problem was there was a boatload of new or changed infrastructure projects needed.

Not sure what you're referring to here. I don't think that's accurate.

Originally Posted by TakeFive

2nd, the tourism tax is currently a dumpster fire.

Not so much anymore.

Originally Posted by TakeFive

The one saving grace may be the bipartisan infrastructure bill. Read somewhere that Federal funds could cover up to 90% of the cost - not sure where or how this specifically works.

No, not really. A few limited programs in there maybe (environmental remediation comes to mind), but not really much in there for National Western that I see.

Originally Posted by TakeFive

Additionally, presumably voter approval won't be necessary if they don't need to raise taxes.

Not true. TABOR requires us to vote bonds, even if taxes do not go up.

Originally Posted by TakeFive

The arena is the one, next critical piece; the rest of the vision can happen over time.

Not sure I agree. I am worried doing the arena alone now, without a plan for how the rest of the site follows, ends up actually precluding ever completing the rest. For a lot of very complicated reasons.

Originally Posted by TakeFive

Early priority (in addition to infrastructure) went towards CSU's "Spur" facilities which is a Great Idea IMO.

None of the voted money went to this.

Originally Posted by TakeFive

The one saving grace may be the bipartisan infrastructure bill.

Unrelated, I don't expect the infrastructure bill to be a saving grace for much. Don't get me wrong, happy for the money. But I can already sense any efficiencies going out the window - it's going to be a race to spend. Those dollars are not going to go anywhere near as far as they can or should.

[laniroj]

Originally Posted by Robert.hampton

I think this bond package will have a real hard time passing. No one is buying the National Western Complex vision (including investors, which is why this is coming to a bond in the first place) and the rest of the projects are pretty visionless and filled with a bunch of deferred maintenance.

I'd rather spend all this money on a safe outdoor site in every neighborhood and then throw the rest of the unsanctioned campers in jail.

Robert Hampton for Mayor!

[TakeFive]

Really good stuff

Originally Posted by bunt_q

This isn't really accurate.

To the best of my knowledge investors don't invest in public facilities unless it's some kind of public private partnership. Any private investments as a part of a public master plan are something different. There are also donors who contribute to specific projects but that's not an investment other than for one's ego.

Originally Posted by bunt_q

The voted bonds only covered Phases 1-2. (And in the end, due to overruns, have only built about half of those.)

The P3 would have operated Phases 1-2 (since nobody over thought about how operations would be paid for) and constructed and operated Phases 3-8, which were never funded.

That's unfortunate although from Big Picture guestimates it's always hard to appreciate unforeseen things as well as construction costs/inflation.

Originally Posted by bunt_q

There was a brief period when folks thought P3s meant free money, but that passed a long time ago. The argument for the P3 at National Western was (1) unified operations over the entire site, (2) event programming coordinated with those operations, (3) coordinated construction on a very difficult site where phasing is everything, and (4) capturing private real estate value in a way that really can't really be done unless somebody is coordinating the big picture site plan and site development.

Definitely appreciate your intimate knowledge on the topic.

Originally Posted by bunt_q

Not sure what you're referring to here. I don't think that's accurate.

I'm referring to the Infrastructure Master Plan January 2015 and the NATIONAL WESTERN CENTER DISTRICT NFRASTRUCTURE ASSESSMENT PRELIMINARY AUGUST 2016.

Originally Posted by bunt_q

Not so much anymore.

Appreciate that this is recovering nicely but until there's a full recovery in the convention business there's still a long ways to go. Speaking of the CCC, I'd assume this would have priority for payback along with any other existing bonds over floating any more bonds for the National Western Center which I also assume is part of their problem.

Originally Posted by bunt_q

No, not really. A few limited programs in there maybe (environmental remediation comes to mind), but not really much in there for National Western that I see.

I could have clarified this better but I had moved on to larger, even megaprojects by both the city and state per your comment.

Originally Posted by bunt_q

Not true. TABOR requires us to vote bonds, even if taxes do not go up.

Thanks for the reminder/clarification. I was thinking partly that if the Feds are paying 90% then CDOT (for example) wouldn't need to float any bonds. They might need some $'s allocated from the legislature though; that is possible.

Originally Posted by bunt_q

Not sure I agree. I am worried doing the arena alone now, without a plan for how the rest of the site follows, ends up actually precluding ever completing the rest. For a lot of very complicated reasons.

That's very fair.

But the Arena is critical as a standalone project for very specific reasons. It is important to the stock show's success with multi other useful purposes. I'd add in the historic renovation of the Coliseum which who's cost is painless.

Originally Posted by bunt_q

None of the voted money went to this.

Good point. I assume (other than for some infrastructure) that was funded by CSU with some help from the Legislature - IIRC.

Originally Posted by bunt_q

Unrelated, I don't expect the infrastructure bill to be a saving grace for much. Don't get me wrong, happy for the money. But I can already sense any efficiencies going out the window - it's going to be a race to spend. Those dollars are not going to go anywhere near as far as they can or should.

Generally agree but I assume you're referring to block grants with few guardrails. I'd assume that most so-called infrastructure projects need to pass muster as normal (unless they're paid from grants with no strings).

While it's a lot of money it goes into many different pots, like electricity, water projects and so on, so yeah it will get spread around.

[TakeFive]

bunt mentions a lack of vision. No argument from me; there's a bunch of boring people around here.

A 10,000 seat arena? Any good examples for this?

Mohegan Sun Arena

Mohegan Sun Arena is now ranked consistently among the top venues in the world according to Billboard Magazine, Pollstar and Venues Today.

When it comes to live music and entertainment, top headlining concerts and premier sporting events, the 10,000-seat Mohegan Sun Arena, located in Connecticut, is the leader in the entertainment business. From Billy Joel, Fleetwood Mac, The Eagles, Taylor Swift, Jennifer Lopez, Jay Z, Keith Urban, Bon Jovi and Kenny Chesney in addition to championship boxing and MMA, top-touring stand-up comedy, WWE, NCAA Division 1 and professional basketball - Mohegan Sun gets them all.

1 Mohegan Sun Boulevard
Uncasville, CT 06382


Source

Why not Denver?

Orlando has a 10,000 seat arena


Source

http://www.spectraexperiences.com/our-work/addition-financial-arena

Addition Financial Arena continues to rank as one of the top performing arenas in the world by Pollstar Magazine. The venue was also recently ranked as the #3 Meeting & Banquet Facility in Central Florida by the Orlando Business Journal.

Lady Gaga (sold out); Carrie Underwood (sold out); Elton John (sold out); Katy Perry (sold out); Tyler, The Creator (sold out); Tool (sold out); Reba McEntire (sold out); Hillsong United (sold out); Kevin Hart, Bob Dylan, Miranda Lambert, Lady A, Adam Sandler, DJ Tiesto, Paw Patrol Live!

Why not Denver?

There's a tremendous opportunity to cater to entertainment options whether musical acts, meeting and/or banquet demand in today's market - for a 10,000 seat arena as apposed to larger ~20,000 sports arenas. There's a lot of acts that would crave for a 10,000 seat venue. In addition to Red Rocks or in the case of rain-outs, events could easily be moved to a downtown arena - if available.

For whatever reason, many people are convulsing over the arena being used by the Stock Show (one week a year) as apposed to visualizing a year around asset and entertainment venue. Too many people are stuck in yesterday's boring options. If AGE is a state-of-mind it feels like Denver is accumulating to many people acting like 70-year-old's - at least when it comes to entertainment and venue options.

[AlSmithee]

Why build new?

https://cubuffs.com/facilities/cu-events-center

[TakeFive]

Sometimes, for inexplicable reasons the interwebs missfire

Originally Posted by AlSmithee

Why build new?

https://cubuffs.com/facilities/cu-events-center

It looks like you're missing a < /2 > on the end but that isn't a very satisfying result either.

To your suggestion, what's interesting is that I also did some checking into markets like Austin and Phoenix. Austin has somewhat limited options other than large warehouse type structures or smaller venues. But Austin also benefits from the University of Texas/Austin being right there. Phoenix similarly benefits from ASU (Tempe) being an integral part of the urban core. Phoenix also has a wide variety of options but many are older, not very inviting.

[AlSmithee]

Originally Posted by TakeFive

Sometimes, for inexplicable reasons the interwebs missfire


It looks like you're missing a < /2 > on the end but that isn't a very satisfying result either.

To your suggestion, what's interesting is that I also did some checking into markets like Austin and Phoenix. Austin has somewhat limited options other than large warehouse type structures or smaller venues. But Austin also benefits from the University of Texas/Austin being right there. Phoenix similarly benefits from ASU (Tempe) being an integral part of the urban core. Phoenix also has a wide variety of options but many are older, not very inviting.

The point is the there’s an arena of the size wanted already in place, with easy transit access too.

Why spend on something superfluous?

[bunt_q]

Originally Posted by AlSmithee

Why build new?

https://cubuffs.com/facilities/cu-events-center

You mean the arena that even CU would like to tear down?

Easy answer, though - because that arena has too small of a field of play (floor) for most of the events this arena would host. There's more to arena design than seat count.

[Robert.hampton]

Formal site development plan now submitted at 16th and Pearl for the X Denver-style frat house. Looks like they've already gotten underway with the value engineering from an interesting masonry exterior reminiscent of Market Station to some cheap EIFS paneling.

[The Dirt]

Can't wait for another shitty parking lot to be eradicated in my hood.

[bulldurhamer]

3930 Blake St.
did we talk about this? i see it's under construction now. no more sweet smells of cannabis growing as we walk past...

https://missourirealestatenews.com/apart...cture-merges-architecture-with-greenery/

Chinese firm MAD Architects is the design architect for One River North. This is just the company’s second residential project in the United States. Davis Partnership Architects is the executive architect. Saunders Construction is the general contractor.

Wynne told BusinessDen that One River North is slated to have 187 units, and about 9,000 square feet of ground-floor retail space.

[AlSmithee]

Originally Posted by bunt_q

You mean the arena that even CU would like to tear down?

Easy answer, though - because that arena has too small of a field of play (floor) for most of the events this arena would host. There's more to arena design than seat count.

Reduce, reuse, recycle, renovate, repurpose.

[BG918]

Originally Posted by Robert.hampton

Formal site development plan now submitted at 16th and Pearl for the X Denver-style frat house. Looks like they've already gotten underway with the value engineering from an interesting masonry exterior reminiscent of Market Station to some cheap EIFS paneling.

What project is this?