Downtown Eastside - DTES Issues

[Migrant_Coconut]

Seattle, funny enough, has a homeless camp next to a courthouse and another next to a playground. The grass is always greener across the border, I guess.

Originally Posted by Skook

I think most who support gentrification as part of the solution envision unlocking some of the immense value of an under developed neighbourhood in the center of the city to fund housing for the current residents elsewhere. It is time for a different approach. The DTES is such an unhealthy environment that its mere existence perpetuates the problems that make it such a shitshow in the first place.

In theory, sure. In practice, we'd be demovicting maybe 5-6k residents without replacements (a ~250% increase in homelessness) for maybe $30 million in CACs - Council and Victoria should ask for half a billion up front and another on completion.

[SeymourDrake]

The more i read this thread the more american you all sound. me me me me me. You make it sound like you're the ones suffering daily. You're mentally ill. Nothing is done fast enough. The current local and provincial govts are too slow. If you were born here you don't belong here.

You know what 95% of you if you go back will find out you aren't from Canada.

Why not get off your leathers A***s and help your community.

[Vin]

That is why Toronto is ahead of us in so many ways. They are pretty swift and decisive when it comes down to doing things and tackling problems for the working people, may they be wealthy or not so much.

https://nationalpost.com/opinion/ada...-working-class

Large Police presence and people who resisted arrested....

https://www.cbc.ca/radio/asithappens...onto-1.6077291

No nonsense attitude when enforcing the law:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toron...onto-1.6110697


This is a win for Torontonians.

[rofina]

Originally Posted by SeymourDrake

The more i read this thread the more american you all sound.

Interesting start to this tangent, separate into category, and make one worse. Insidious way of thinking. Hope you're enjoying that American Covid vaccine in your arm.

me me me me me. You make it sound like you're the ones suffering daily. You're mentally ill. Nothing is done fast enough. The current local and provincial govts are too slow. If you were born here you don't belong here.
You know what 95% of you if you go back will find out you aren't from Canada.

I'm a first generation immigrant. The fact we accept and only talk about the DTES while human misery compounds at an exponential rate is an embarrassment and a testament to the people that live in Vancouver. This reflects on no one but Vancouverities. This is the reality we apparently endorse and choose to continue, not because its a given, but because we choose to allow it.

Why not get off your leathers A***s and help your community.

I have. Nearly 2 years in the trenches. Just so I could have these conversations in person, look the person in the eye and say; I got off my ass and I tried. Community meetings, political organizing/volunteering, donating. I covered the gamut short of running for office myself.

My conclusion at the end of approximately 18 months? Most folks I came across did not actually want to talk change because change is uncomfortable. Its risky. It takes effort, it takes action, it takes planning, and it takes someone to see it through.

[Vin]

Originally Posted by SeymourDrake

The more i read this thread the more american you all sound. me me me me me. You make it sound like you're the ones suffering daily. You're mentally ill. Nothing is done fast enough. The current local and provincial govts are too slow. If you were born here you don't belong here.

You know what 95% of you if you go back will find out you aren't from Canada.

Why not get off your leathers A***s and help your community.

Perhaps you can go talk to the security guard who was stabbed multiple times at the Shoppers Drug Mart on Davie Street what me me me means. He was doing more good ensuring the safety of everyone daily and what does he have to gain? Having a healthy discussion here is a good way to see other people's perspectives and find out other's experience when it comes to serious issues that affect all of us. You are too quick to judge others for not contributing to the society and community.

[SeymourDrake]

I rest my case. Vin and Rofino the angriest bunch on the forum.

[FarmerHaight]

Originally Posted by rofina

Addicts = Voluntary treatment is the first step. If treatment is refused, so are services and housing. If they break the law to feed addiction, final shot at treatment is given, if not taken. Incarceration. Actions meet repercussion. Following incarceration, transition services provided to allow a new path.

Criminals = Probably a lot of overlap with addiction. Same as above applies. If its not addiction, its time for tougher sentences. It doesn't work nor make sense for the 99% of us to be assaulted and prayed upon by a few people that are repeat criminals.

I'll admit I know very little on this topic both from a lack of personal experience and in depth research. However, I do know there is no shortage of statistics that illuminate the extravagant cost of incarceration and that prisons breed better criminals rather than rehabilitate them. I don't know that it is as simple as throwing more people into prison for longer. I could imagine a bloated prison population might cost so much as to steal away the funding earmarked for the homeless and mentally unwell populations that you mentioned.

As for the idea of work camps, what unskilled manual labor would be performed? I don't think work camps would be all that more affordable than the status quo, more likely a number of unprofitable make-work projects would need to be imagined. And that is before considering the optics and humanity of these "camps".

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by FarmerHaight

As for the idea of work camps, what unskilled manual labor would be performed? I don't think work camps would be all that more affordable than the status quo, more likely a number of unprofitable make-work projects would need to be imagined. And that is before considering the optics and humanity of these "camps".

And we shouldn't expect productivity from people who weren't productive to begin with. How much (usable) furniture a day are we expecting from a junkie or a parasite?

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by FarmerHaight

I'll admit I know very little on this topic both from a lack of personal experience and in depth research. However, I do know there is no shortage of statistics that illuminate the extravagant cost of incarceration and that prisons breed better criminals rather than rehabilitate them. I don't know that it is as simple as throwing more people into prison for longer. I could imagine a bloated prison population might cost so much as to steal away the funding earmarked for the homeless and mentally unwell populations that you mentioned.

We only have to look to the US to see how good the plan to "lock up the druggies" works.

[s211]

Originally Posted by SeymourDrake

The more i read this thread the more american you all sound.

This seems to be the go-to phrase for most Canadians these days: "if I don't agree with you, you are obviously thinking like an American". Play that card, and you've already lost the game.

[Klazu]

Originally Posted by FarmerHaight

As for the idea of work camps, what unskilled manual labor would be performed?

I don't know? Help fight the blaze in the Interior by building firebreaks? Clear sidewalks from snow and rake leaves in parks? There's a million things that are still very simple manual work and would benefit the community at large, but manual labour in exchange for benefits and free housing is seen as cruel by the bleeding hearts.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by Klazu

I don't know? Help fight the blaze in the Interior by building firebreaks? Clear sidewalks from snow and rake leaves in parks? There's a million things that are still very simple manual work and would benefit the community at large, but manual labour in exchange for benefits and free housing is seen as cruel by the bleeding hearts.

Not cruel, impractical. Prison's expensive (also overcrowded), and anything cheaper than prison likely involves a Charter violation.

Again, I'd like to know what kind of firebreaks we're expecting from addicts or self-admitted leeches. Knowing the ones in the VPL, the end result will be a bunch of black eyes and a fifth of the actual job done.

[SeymourDrake]

Originally Posted by s211

This seems to be the go-to phrase for most Canadians these days: "if I don't agree with you, you are obviously thinking like an American". Play that card, and you've already lost the game.

No i just recognize ignorance and selfishness when i see it.

[Klazu]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Again, I'd like to know what kind of firebreaks we're expecting from addicts or self-admitted leeches.

Raking leaves or shoveling snow can be done even by an addict with a toasted, mushy brain. If they are able to fill out benefits forms and use their city-provided free cell phones, they can easily do those things. Some people make these people sound like drooling sponges that cannot be required to do anything, yet be given everything.

Doing some honest physical work in exchange for benefits and free housing would be way better deal than rest of us having to pull long hours and still have to pay for our own housing and benefits through our high taxes.

This labor would also provide addicts looking to turn their lives around some sober time away from doing drugs all day long, as the current system with zero responsibilities only does. It wouldn't have to involve incarceration but be a city program. Easy peasy with the right political will

Onva related note, on movies one always sees prisoners doing communal service in orange jump suits. Does or has that ever happened in either the US or Canada, or is that just fiction? I am honestly curious.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by Klazu

Raking leaves or shoveling snow can be done even by an addict with a toasted, mushy brain. If they are able to fill out benefits forms and use their city-provided free cell phones, they can easily do those things. Some people make these people sound like drooling sponges that cannot be required to do anything, yet be given everything.

Doing some honest physical work in exchange for benefits and free housing would be way better deal than rest of us having to pull long hours and still have to pay for our own housing and benefits through our high taxes.

This labor would also provide addicts looking to turn their lives around some sober time away from doing drugs all day long, as the current system with zero responsibilities only does. It wouldn't have to involve incarnation but be a city program. Easy peasy with the right political will

"Can be done" and "will be done" are two very different things. We're talking about putting the problem cases to work; if they can't use an internet cafe or even a bathroom without screaming/threatening/punching the people around them, they sure as hell can't be trusted to dig ditches. You can probably count on regular junkies to do labour just fine, but then they can also be counted on to go through detox and rehab and come out clean.

Originally Posted by Klazu

Onva related note, on movies one always sees prisoners doing communal service in orange jump suits. Does or has that ever happened in either the US or Canada, or is that just fiction? I am honestly curious.

That's know as penal labour or prison labour. As with all things in America, it's somehow morphed into a dystopian nightmare industry.

[jlousa]

I think workfare could work for a small subset of the population but it won't work for most of them. There was an experiment decades ago to have people work for their benefits and the government found some of the people would intentionally sabotage the machinery and it was cheaper to have them sit at home and do nothing. Hence the need to multifacets.

[rofina]

Originally Posted by SeymourDrake

No i just recognize ignorance and selfishness when i see it.

You say nothing of value and judge.

Give an opinion of substance, a counter point. Anything.

Share something beside a snide remark.

[rofina]

Originally Posted by SeymourDrake

I rest my case. Vin and Rofino the angriest bunch on the forum.

You rest your case?

You said nothing and contributed nothing.

Not a single solution, model, concept, anything.

Offer something up for discussion at the least, before resting your case.

[Vin]

Originally Posted by FarmerHaight

I'll admit I know very little on this topic both from a lack of personal experience and in depth research. However, I do know there is no shortage of statistics that illuminate the extravagant cost of incarceration and that prisons breed better criminals rather than rehabilitate them. I don't know that it is as simple as throwing more people into prison for longer. I could imagine a bloated prison population might cost so much as to steal away the funding earmarked for the homeless and mentally unwell populations that you mentioned.

As for the idea of work camps, what unskilled manual labor would be performed? I don't think work camps would be all that more affordable than the status quo, more likely a number of unprofitable make-work projects would need to be imagined. And that is before considering the optics and humanity of these "camps".

Stamping vehicle license plates would be a good start. Painting municipal fire hydrants, creating road signs, environmental clean-ups, etc. etc. Much can be done through the prison system.

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

And we shouldn't expect productivity from people who weren't productive to begin with. How much (usable) furniture a day are we expecting from a junkie or a parasite?

More work = more food (otherwise you only get boiled broccoli for meals).

More work = more gym time.

More work = more TV time.

More work = early parole.

Perhaps that would motivate the inmates to wok harder? Instead on harping on how prison fails and is very expensive, maybe a cleverer society can reinvent the prison system on how to motivate people to be more productive.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by Vin

More work = more food (otherwise you only get boiled broccoli for meals).

More work = more gym time.

More work = more TV time.

More work = early parole.

Perhaps that would motivate the inmates to wok harder? Instead on harping on how prison fails and is very expensive, maybe a cleverer society can reinvent the prison system on how to motivate people to be more productive.

If they can't sit in a library or a restaurant without random screaming and violence, they definitely won't produce license plates that can actually be used by the public. And if they were motivated by those kinds of motives, then logically they wouldn't be problem cases to begin with and could be rehabbed.

Doesn't matter how little you feed the inmates when the expensive part ($78k of $110k, to be precise), is paying people to live in the middle of nowhere and guard criminals. Actual professionals on the subject are already trying... to do what we're doing. None of their solutions involve what's effectively slave labour, and none of them are asking opinions from a Karen with zero knowledge of the actual subject, only its symptoms.