The Great Canadian Transit Thread

[milomilo]

None of this has anything to do with transit.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by milomilo

None of this has anything to do with transit.

Nor does bitching about the lack of VIA services in his region for the millionth time. But here we are. Always having to deal with the usual nonsense cry of "unfair".

It's just hard for him to accept that government is actually investing in infrastructure where the greatest need is (and where the votes are).

[jamincan]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Where is your company headquartered?

Mississauga, as it happens.

FWIW, the Guardian has a pretty good article about the Canadian mining industry and the importance of Toronto globally: https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2017/mar/03/toronto-hidden-history-how-city-built-mining It's a worthwhile read, because most people have no idea how important Toronto is in the industry. It's a bit of a puff piece coinciding with the PDAC, but they do a pretty good job of laying it out.

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Nor does bitching about the lack of VIA services in his region for the millionth time. But here we are. Always having to deal with the usual nonsense cry of "unfair".

It's just hard for him to accept that government is actually investing in infrastructure where the greatest need is (and where the votes are).

It's hard and I don't take my own advice, but it's best not to take the bait when these diversions come up.

[SteelTown]

Even more transit announcements at Hamilton. Rumour is that Hamilton will finally get all-day GO train service to the West Harbour GO Station.

Originally Posted by ShavedParmesanCheese

So sayeth Mr. Coleman: the Minister for Transport, vice president of LiUNA, president of Metrolinx, and everybody's favourite MPP will be in town with the mayor on Monday to announce... something about transport. GO improvements?


https://twitter.com/JoeyColeman/status/1418659069880045569/photo/1

[ShavedParmesanCheese]

I really gotta figure out how to compress images

The way I see it, the only things that motley crew would need to be together for are either all-day GO service, or that BRT plan for Dundas St. It would explain why everybody's favourite MPP will be there.

[ClaytonA]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Brampton is finalizing a $400M financing deal with the CIB to acquire 450 electric buses and move to an all-electric fleet by 2027.

https://www.brampton.ca/EN/City-Hall/News/Pages/Media-Release.aspx/936

Sift through enough stuff... not that you don't sometimes learn something there too.

Critical mass of EV buses. What's that, Vancouver, Edmonton, Ottawa, Halifax, Toronto, Oakville, BC Transit, BC school buses, etc. Steady drip, drip that is happening faster than many realize. One could argue with hybrids this has been a continuum for over a decade.

As Malcolm has pointed out previously, EV buses are facilitated by the capital versus O&M funding model we have in Canada with grants. Also generally efficient/lean Canadian transit operation were costs are driven down acknowledging the coverage/ridership nexus. There's push and pull going on.

[ssiguy]

Good for Brampton.

It stated that it will purchase 450 ZEB not just battery ones so it will be interesting to seethe make-up of the order in terms of technology.

[MalcolmTucker]

If you already have CNG it is pretty easy to spread your costs out a bit more if someone will offer you a 10 year or less RNG contract. Helps meet timelines better too - I imagine the industry will have some momentary difficulties as they turn over their supply chains. Especially if Canada goes electric in 10 years and the USA takes 30, the supply chains will be bifurcated for a while and not nearly as flexible.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

Good for Brampton.

It stated that it will purchase 450 ZEB not just battery ones so it will be interesting to seethe make-up of the order in terms of technology.

True. But I don't think these are going to end up being anything other than BEBs:

In May 2021, Brampton Transit entered eight battery-electric buses into service as part of the first multi-city deployment of interoperable buses and charging equipment. The city of Brampton is part of the Pan-Canadian Battery Electric Bus Demonstration and Integration Trial, led by the Canadian Urban Transit Research and Innovation Consortium.

https://www.masstransitmag.com/bus/vehic...transit-transition-to-zeroemission-buses

There's literally only one transit agency currently testing (not procuring yet) a hydrogen fuel cell bus:

In 2021, MiWay will participate in a hydrogen fuel-cell electric bus pilot project. MiWay is partnering with the Canadian Urban Transit Research and Innovation Consortium (CUTRIC) on the pilot project – the only one of its kind in Canada. Fuel-cell buses use hydrogen fuel cells as their power source, providing a clean, consistent and environmentally friendly source of electricity. During the pilot, MiWay will understand how hydrogen-electric technology can help advance the City of Mississauga’s commitment to a zero-emission bus fleet in support of the Climate Change Action Plan.

https://www.mississauga.ca/city-of-missi...e-hydrogen-fuel-cell-electric-bus-pilot/

Globally, the trend is clear. From Bloomberg in 2018:

Nearly half of the municipal buses on the road worldwide will be electric within seven years, with China expected to dominate the global market as it aims to cut urban pollution and support domestic manufacturers.

The total number of electric buses in service is forecast to more than triple, from 386,000 last year to about 1.2 million in 2025, equal to about 47 percent of the worldwide city bus fleet, according to a report from Bloomberg New Energy Finance.

“China will lead this market, due to strong domestic support and aggressive city-level targets,” wrote Aleksandra O’Donovan, an analyst for BNEF and author of the study. By 2025, the report said, the country will account for 99 percent of the world’s battery-powered buses.

Electric buses remain more expensive up front than those fueled by diesel or compressed natural gas, but BNEF found that battery-powered buses can already offer a lower total cost of ownership when fuel and maintenance expenses are considered. Projected declines in battery prices will make the upfront costs of some electric models competitive with a diesel version by 2026, according to the study.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/...es-will-take-over-half-the-world-by-2025

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

If you already have CNG it is pretty easy to spread your costs out a bit more if someone will offer you a 10 year or less RNG contract. Helps meet timelines better too - I imagine the industry will have some momentary difficulties as they turn over their supply chains. Especially if Canada goes electric in 10 years and the USA takes 30, the supply chains will be bifurcated for a while and not nearly as flexible.

Bloomberg and a few other forecasters are suggesting purchase price parity between diesel and electric buses sometime later in the decade. So it's unlikely that most transit agencies will be operating diesel buses well into the 2040s.

It makes sense for some agencies like HSR to stay with CNG until later in the decade I guess until cost and performance meet their needs. The rest, in Canada, will be all electric by 2040 at the latest. The Americans are probably only 5 years behind us.

[ssiguy]

I'm not saying they won't be mostly BEV but I think if they were to do this then they would have stated it. I can see them testing some hydrogen buses in conjunction with ML as BEVs are fine for local transit but have limitations on longer routes like GO Bus runs.

Also the make-up of BEVs are not all the same. Some have bigger and heavier battery packs which allow them to run local routes without recharging but conversely the routes they cover must be shorter. Some in Europe, on the other hand, have smaller battery systems making the buses much lighter and are recharged at certain stops along the way using contactless catenary systems.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

I'm not saying they won't be mostly BEV but I think if they were to do this then they would have stated it. I can see them testing some hydrogen buses in conjunction with ML as BEVs are fine for local transit but have limitations on longer routes like GO Bus runs.

They are testing electric buses with CUTRIC. I highly doubt that an agency with zero FCEV experience and no infrastructure to produce hydrogen is really going to be taking on hydrogen buses either. I actually have doubts that even MiWay will take on hydrogen buses beyond their little pilot. There's a whole host of reasons.

1) Economies of scale. Metrolinx is supposed to do group buys for the transit agencies in the region. And with the large ones going electric, the smaller one benefit being part of a larger order.

2) Limited HFCEV bus infrastructure and experience in the region. MiWay is the only agency in the country that is going to test hydrogen buses. And that was largely due to a previous unique scheme of a local cement maker providing them hydrogen as part of an offset plan. CUTRIC is supporting the trial to get data on performance and costs. But this is not in any way scalable in any timeframe relevant to the other agencies in the region.

3) Local industry. There's electric bus manufacturing in the GTA. Brampton itself has a New Flyer parts centre and a growing auto electrification sector (rumoured to be contender for Chrysler EV plant).

I don't think Brampton's politicians and city staff can ignore all this and just jump in on random trials.

Also where did you get the idea that Metrolinx is interested in Hydrogen buses? New Flyer now owns Alexander Dennis and they are making double decker electric buses, along with electric coach buses at MCI. GO is most certainly going that route now. Especially after they dropped hydrogen from rail electrification considerations too.

Originally Posted by ssiguy

Also the make-up of BEVs are not all the same. Some have bigger and heavier battery packs which allow them to run local routes without recharging but conversely the routes they cover must be shorter. Some in Europe, on the other hand, have smaller battery systems making the buses much lighter and are recharged at certain stops along the way using contactless catenary systems.

You are substantially overexaggerating the range difficulties. Especially with these buses that come with giant battery packs. Edmonton got their Proterra buses with massive 660 kWh battery packs. They don't seem to have struggles with range that I've heard of.

As battery cost go down, the cost to add battery capacity becomes far less of an issue. At say $200/kWh, adding a whopping 300 kWh (60-85% increase over the standard pack) is $60k, not a substantial increase on a million dollar bus. And certainly not enough to drive a consideration of alternative power systems like trolley wires. It's great for the systems that have trolley wires already to be able to buy buses with smaller packs and avoid under-used wire coverage expansion. But nobody is going out of their way to put up new wires. Strategically placed Oppchargers do just fine.

[Innsertnamehere]

Major increase in GO service announced this week, mostly restoration of pre-pandemic off peak services. 15 minute frequencies return to the lakeshore lines from Oakville to Oshawa, and hourly weekend services return to Kitchener, Barrie, and Stouffville.


A net new expansion of service will also occur with the other improvements on August 7th - hourly all day service to Hamilton.

Hamilton has been waiting for all day GO train service for nearly a decade now since it was first announced - track work was completed last september for the service but implementation has been delayed because of low ridership from COVID. It's a very big deal that it's finally in place!

[Coldrsx]

Calgary to Banff passenger rail project on track to start early development

https://cgyca.com/industry-updates/calga...ect-on-track-to-start-early-development/

Proposed Calgary-to-Banff train, extended patios at City Hall Monday, among other things
BY KAYLA BUTLER AND NEWS STAFF
Posted Jul 25, 2021 6:00 am MDT

https://www.660citynews.com/2021/07/25/proposed-calgary-to-banff-train-back-at-city-hall-this-week/


https://skyscraperpage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=149263&page=772
Chadillaccc

[hipster duck]

Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere

Major increase in GO service announced this week, mostly restoration of pre-pandemic off peak services. 15 minute frequencies return to the lakeshore lines from Oakville to Oshawa, and hourly weekend services return to Kitchener, Barrie, and Stouffville.


A net new expansion of service will also occur with the other improvements on August 7th - hourly all day service to Hamilton.

Hamilton has been waiting for all day GO train service for nearly a decade now since it was first announced - track work was completed last september for the service but implementation has been delayed because of low ridership from COVID. It's a very big deal that it's finally in place!

Great news! Now that Oakville-Oshawa runs on 15 minute frequencies, did Toronto just add 80km to its rapid transit network? That’s as good a frequency as most American light rail lines.

[Innsertnamehere]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

Great news! Now that Oakville-Oshawa runs on 15 minute frequencies, did Toronto just add 80km to its rapid transit network? That’s as good a frequency as most American light rail lines.

Lakeshore East ran at 15 minute frequencies prior to the pandemic, but service to Oakville was only 20 minute frequencies prior to the pandemic (technically 15-15-30, but 3 times an hour).

The new Hamilton service also rights an odd condition where Canada's 9th largest CMA and largest CMA were connected by only 4 peak hour trains, despite only being about 60 kilometres apart. It will now be easy for someone from Toronto to go check out a new restaurant or concert in Hamilton and take the train home, and vice-versa.

[Truenorth00]

I can't wait for GO RER. Wish they could speed up the timeline. I think AD2W throughout the GTA is really going to change how people think about transit (only to get to work) and regional travel.

[ssiguy]

I don't this will result in much additional ridership until {if ever} they bring in fare integration.

[ScreamingViking]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

I don't this will result in much additional ridership until {if ever} they bring in fare integration.

?

There have been co-fare arrangements in place for a while. A full fare-integration scheme is still in the works, as far as I last knew.

There's a blend of service improvements and fare changes that are needed to maximize demand for GO, but the service increases will go a LONG way to bringing in the ridership.