The Great Canadian Transit Thread

[milomilo]

No one moves to a small town in Canada and complains about the lack of buses or a useless VIA train.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by milomilo

No one moves to a small town in Canada and complains about the lack of buses or a useless VIA train.

Except for entitled railfans who think one should get the same level of service in Sudbury as downtown Toronto.

[GoTrans]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Nonsense. Not getting service from VIA does not equate to no "service or funding at all". The feds fund plenty of different services in every region of the country.

This is like arguing that Ontario gets ignored because we don't get the same amount of federal funding for ferries as the Maritimes or BC.

No it isn't because for all intensive purposes AB, SK and MB are landlocked.

I am talking about broad regions not on a local scale. Traditionally highways were a provincial responsibility and railways a federal responsibility. Why has Ottawa never funded any improvements to the Edmonton - Calgary corridor over the years including grade separations? Hopefully the feds will come to the table with some of the recent proposals in AB even if they totally ignore the rest of the priairies as usual.

[Truenorth00]

Railways were a federal responsibility? Since when?

The regulation maybe. But let's not forget that VIA only came about because the freight companies wanted to get out of the passenger rail business. There's no long tradition of the federal government building passenger rail in Canada in the modern era.

This is a huge part of why VIA is and has struggled. It's the baby that was left at the federal doorstep that the feds never wanted. They have zero interest in doing more than the bare minimum. And in no small measure because the political return on rail investment is atrocious. Literally any amount they spend on VIA has higher return, if spent on local transit.

[milomilo]

It's great that our two efficient public spending haters have infected this thread too with their demands that the prairies get daily rail service that no one fucking wants.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

That is up to the small town.

Small towns usually do not have the tax base for the initial costs. How much is a

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Why can't I move to a small town and get big city services? All I ask is that provincial taxpayers foot the bill of my fiscally unsustainable lifestyle. Is that too much to ask?

Well, if we could keep the taxes collected form our mines and forestry in the towns that are dong the extraction and refining, we would be flush with cash. That's now how it works.I am not suggesting a subway in Kenora.

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Exactly. There's absolutely nothing stopping small towns from having transit, except their own cheapskate residents who see transit as a big city thing that hardy self-reliant country boys with pickup trucks don't need.

So we get railfans here complaining that provincial taxpayers should foot the bill instead.

We see rural transit all over the world. I've literally been in small towns in Europe where it's a large van going in circles. But these folks don't want to actually fund that locally.

Most Northern ON cities and towns have the highest property tax rates in the province, and even in Canada. So, how are we cheapskates?

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Except for entitled railfans who think one should get the same level of service in Sudbury as downtown Toronto.

Same level? Don't think I have ever said that. I live in the sticks. If they had 15 minute bus service from 5am to midnight at my door, I would question why.

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Railways were a federal responsibility? Since when?

The regulation maybe. But let's not forget that VIA only came about because the freight companies wanted to get out of the passenger rail business. There's no long tradition of the federal government building passenger rail in Canada in the modern era.

This is a huge part of why VIA is and has struggled. It's the baby that was left at the federal doorstep that the feds never wanted. They have zero interest in doing more than the bare minimum. And in no small measure because the political return on rail investment is atrocious. Literally any amount they spend on VIA has higher return, if spent on local transit.

Remember when the federal government paid to build the first transcontinental line in Canada? Remember when the federal government bought up all the failing lines and ran freight on them?

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Remember when the federal government paid to build the first transcontinental line in Canada? Remember when the federal government bought up all the failing lines and ran freight on them?

Remember when the government invested in things that might have been a good investment, and not a massive waste of money like all the things you suggest are?

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Small towns usually do not have the tax base for the initial costs.

If only that was the problem. The usual problem is the inability to fund operations, maintenance and recapitalization. The provincial and federal governments aren't in the business of creating new neverending liabilities for themselves.

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Well, if we could keep the taxes collected form our mines and forestry in the towns that are dong the extraction and refining, we would be flush with cash. That's now how it works.I am not suggesting a subway in Kenora.

What if cities keep all of the taxes they generate? You cool with that too? Maybe all the corporate taxes collected in Toronto should be spent only in the 416. If we're going by your logic.

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Most Northern ON cities and towns have the highest property tax rates in the province, and even in Canada. So, how are we cheapskates?

You can have high taxes and still be cheapskates. That's how champagne tastes on a beer budget works.

Also, sparsely settled areas with a very high infrastructure burden should have high taxes.

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Same level? Don't think I have ever said that. I live in the sticks. If they had 15 minute bus service from 5am to midnight at my door, I would question why.

Yet, you have no issues asking for train routes that would cost tens of millions of dollars in annual subsidies to run.

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Remember when the federal government paid to build the first transcontinental line in Canada? Remember when the federal government bought up all the failing lines and ran freight on them?

Remember when women didn't have the vote, half our provinces didn't exist and we forced aboriginals to put their kids in schools run by the clergy? If we're going to stick to policies from a century ago....

As for the failing lines. Sure. If there's a line of strategic importance maybe. But there's not a lot of rail services that would qualify under that definition.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

What if cities keep all of the taxes they generate? You cool with that too? Maybe all the corporate taxes collected in Toronto should be spent only in the 416. If we're going by your logic.

You mean Timmins would keep the money collected for all the gold they dig out? I doubt that you could find a resident of Timmins that would be against that. The same can be said about most places outside of the major metros across Canada.

So, yes, let's get this started ASAP.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

You mean Timmins would keep the money collected for all the gold they dig out? I doubt that you could find a resident of Timmins that would be against that. The same can be said about most places outside of the major metros across Canada.

So, yes, let's get this started ASAP.

Timmins gets to keep the taxes. Not the gold. The company that mined it owns the gold.

And yes, that would be a great deal that the big cities filled with corporate tax paying HQs for larger corporations, would love. I'm not sure Timmins would want that deal when they find out where the mining company has their corporate HQ and files their taxes.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Timmins gets to keep the taxes. Not the gold. The company that mined it owns the gold.

And yes, that would be a great deal that the big cities filled with corporate tax paying HQs for larger corporations, would love. I'm not sure Timmins would want that deal when they find out where the mining company has their corporate HQ and files their taxes.

I like how you wiggled out of it. What I meant, using Timmins is the money collected based on the royalties from the amount of gold from the local mine would stay local. The other taxes that are from the HQ, fine, keep it. However, It won't be much as none of the companies running the 3 mines there are HQed in Toronto, or even in ON. Two are owned by one based in Vancouver, and the other is based in Switzerland.

So, yes, please do. You will find that Toronto is not rich due to any other reason than it is where money is traded on the stock exchange.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

I like how you wiggled out of it. What I meant, using Timmins is the money collected based on the royalties from the amount of gold from the local mine would stay local.

I'm actually just fine with royalties staying local.

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

I
The other taxes that are from the HQ, fine, keep it. However, It won't be much as none of the companies running the 3 mines there are HQed in Toronto, or even in ON. Two are owned by one based in Vancouver, and the other is based in Switzerland.

So, yes, please do. You will find that Toronto is not rich due to any other reason than it is where money is traded on the stock exchange.

I have to laugh at how ignorant this is. You think the city where half the country's largest businesses have their HQs, file their taxes and list their shares, wouldn't be rich if there were no net outflows of taxes?

If rural rubes actually believe this, please push for Toronto to be its own province. No more issues with getting ministers from Sudbury and London. The province of Toronto could happily fund all its subways and hospitals and not have to worry about Mike from North Bay feeling shorted.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

I'm actually just fine with royalties staying local.

Sounds good. How soon can we get this to happen? Isn't nickel the highest it has been in years?

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

I have to laugh at how ignorant this is. You think the city where half the country's largest businesses have their HQs, file their taxes and list their shares, wouldn't be rich if there were no net outflows of taxes?

If rural rubes actually believe this, please push for Toronto to be its own province. No more issues with getting ministers from Sudbury and London. The province of Toronto could happily fund all its subways and hospitals and not have to worry about Mike from North Bay feeling shorted.

Let me list some of the major corporations. Please tell me their HQ locations.

Mining:
Goldcorp
Glencore
Vale
De Beers
Newmont

Forestry:
Rayonier
Domtar
Paper Excellence
Resolute Forest Products

So, where are their headquarters?
Are they on the TSX?

You will quickly learn how little you know, but think you know.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Sounds good. How soon can we get this to happen? Isn't nickel the highest it has been in years?



Let me list some of the major corporations. Please tell me their HQ locations.

Mining:
Goldcorp
Glencore
Vale
De Beers
Newmont

Forestry:
Rayonier
Domtar
Paper Excellence
Resolute Forest Products

So, where are their headquarters?
Are they on the TSX?

You think mining and forestry are the only sectors that matters? What a dumb take.

Of the 13 Canadian companies that make the global Fortune 500 list, 7 have their HQs in Toronto. Another one is in the GTA. You'll notice that not one of the companies you mentioned is on the list. I won't even get into all the other multinationals that have their Canadian HQs in Toronto. But yeah, the folks who make toilet paper might have a tough time affording commercial rent in Toronto and competing for talent. Can be tough to compete in a metro that is 18.5% of the country's GDP and 38% of corporate HQs in the country.

Let me help you with some further perspective. Only Quebec and Alberta have a higher GDP as provinces. The Province of Toronto would be the 3rd or 4th highest GDP province in the country. The Rest of Ontario, including your supposedly "rich" mining region would become a have-not province with a per capita GDP on par with Manitoba or Quebec.

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

You will quickly learn how little you know, but think you know.

You really should start taking your own advice.

[Innsertnamehere]

Northern Ontario is especially very poor, what GDP it does have is in mining and resource extraction of which half the workers fly in from the rest of the country and fly back home with their money when the job is done.

Communities like Sudbury, Timmins, etc are far, far poorer than southern Ontario as a whole and it doesnt take a genius to see this when you drive around the different communities.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere

Northern Ontario is especially very poor, what GDP it does have is in mining and resource extraction of which half the workers fly in from the rest of the country and fly back home with their money when the job is done.

Wait till they argue that this setup is unfair and that those jobs should only be reserved for locals, regardless of skills. I call it the Venezuela pitch.

Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere

Communities like Sudbury, Timmins, etc are far, far poorer than southern Ontario as a whole and it doesnt take a genius to see this when you drive around the different communities.

And it's hard to admit this. So we get that coping defence of, "We'd be rich if they weren't robbing us!"

An excuse as old as the heartland-hinterland setup has existed. Only the truly ignorant would want their hinterland cut off from the heartland.

[Innsertnamehere]

Spend a day driving around North Bay then drive south and drive around Newmarket or Pickering or something - those are pretty dead median income type places for south-central Ontario. The amount of wealth flowing in those towns is ridiculous in comparison, and I can promise you it’s generated locally and not “robbed” from northern Ontario.

Northern Ontario in reality gets ridiculous subsidies both in terms of operating and capital by the province. People there view it as some provincial wrongdoing when a road with 2,000 cars a day isn’t upgraded to a full freeway meanwhile 200,000 people in toronto are waiting for late buses in the cold and there are freeways with 200,000 vehicles a day desperately awaiting some money to save the people on it from ridiculous amounts of congestion. Northern Ontario has infrastructure oozing out its ass on a per capita basis, meanwhile southern Ontario’s infrastructure looks similar to a generation ago despite it growing by the entire population of northern Ontario every 5 years.

I can tell you where the infrastructure shortage is and where an unfair amount of money is spent. And it’s not the GTA.

[Truenorth00]

I think they are just upset that their clout is going as the GTA grows. It was easy to extract concessions from Queen's Park when Northern Ontario was say 15-20% of the province's population. Now it's at 6% and falling. The provincial projection has the GTA at 55% of the province's population by 2046. Up from 48% today. In that scenario, Northern Ontario drops to well under 5%. Their political influence will be negligible. Very different from the Mike Harris days.

[jamincan]

As someone who actually works in the mining sector, it is utterly laughable to suggest that Toronto is not far and away the most important corporate centre for the industry in Canada and one of the leaders globally for the sector. Vancouver is a strong but distant second.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by jamincan

As someone who actually works in the mining sector, it is utterly laughable to suggest that Toronto is not far and away the most important corporate centre for the industry in Canada and one of the leaders globally for the sector. Vancouver is a strong but distant second.

Where is your company headquartered?