The Great Canadian Transit Thread

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by someone123

One aspect of Halifax's transit plan developed around 2020 or so was to gradually shift over to an electric bus fleet. Looks like this is happening now with construction starting on large-scale charging infrastructure in 2022. The plan is for the fleet to be all electric by 2028.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scot...c-buses-hrm-halifax-government-1.6102958

It'll be interesting to see the effect this has on quality of life along the inner city streets that have a lot of buses that currently generate loud noises and emissions. Another problem is truck traffic from the South End container port running through downtown, which is supposed to be partially dealt with by moving some containers by rail over to Fairview Cove. This noise might currently be the biggest annoyance for people living downtown.

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Surprised this hasn't been mentioned:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scot...c-buses-hrm-halifax-government-1.6102958

Halifax is getting 60 electric buses and aiming for an all electric fleet by 2028. This is 7 years ahead of the 2035 target that had set Ottawa as the leader in Canada.

This is something I've been screaming for, for years!

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

This is something I've been screaming for, for years!

I completely missed someone 123's post!

In any event really happy to see this from Halifax. And it really is impressive that they are changing over the entire fleet in 7 years. How are they even doing that when buses last 12-15 years? They need to give other cities lessons.

[MalcolmTucker]

As a smaller city, they might not do continuous procurement of buses.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

As a smaller city, they might not do continuous procurement of buses.

Maybe. But between the main fleet and paratransit, they have ~400 vehicles to changeover. Not exactly that small a fleet to flip. And they aren't even starting to take delivery of electric buses till next year.

Let's not forget they are also electrifying their ferry fleet.

Maybe it's harder for our larger metros to do. But that pace of change is impressive and maybe cities like London, Hamilton, Victoria, Windsor, Saskatoon,etc could get some tips.

[ShavedParmesanCheese]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Maybe it's harder for our larger metros to do. But that pace of change is impressive and maybe cities like London, Hamilton, Victoria, Windsor, Saskatoon,etc could get some tips.

The HSR has been looking to convert back to an electric fleet, they’ve been testing battery busses in the lower city. If I remember right the HSR has... 600 busses? From local services to cross-town articulates. Trouble is, battery busses don't do well going up the mountain, so that's really gummed up the process.

If only there was a way to deliver unlimited electricity to the engine in a mode that specifically works best on inclines?

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Maybe. But between the main fleet and paratransit, they have ~400 vehicles to changeover. Not exactly that small a fleet to flip. And they aren't even starting to take delivery of electric buses till next year.

Let's not forget they are also electrifying their ferry fleet.

Maybe it's harder for our larger metros to do. But that pace of change is impressive and maybe cities like London, Hamilton, Victoria, Windsor, Saskatoon,etc could get some tips.

It'll be interesting to see how the electrify the ferries. It is not like they can run centenary lines over the harbour.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

It'll be interesting to see how the electrify the ferries. It is not like they can run centenary lines over the harbour.

Electric ferries are pretty much proven tech at this point. Here's a Siemens electric vehicle ferry running in Norway from 6 years ago:

• Video Link

At the rate at which the tech is improving, and given Halifax's lower requirements (only passengers, no vehicles), they really don't have much to worry about, with a switch that is still years away.

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by ShavedParmesanCheese

The HSR has been looking to convert back to an electric fleet, they’ve been testing battery busses in the lower city. If I remember right the HSR has... 600 busses? From local services to cross-town articulates. Trouble is, battery busses don't do well going up the mountain, so that's really gummed up the process.

If only there was a way to deliver unlimited electricity to the engine in a mode that specifically works best on inclines? [IMG]https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/424706647928078336/865572392210661424/HSR756.jpg[IMG]

Hamilton's HSR is such an annoying name. Oh Hamilton has high speed rail, cool! Oh wait no it's Hamilton Street Railway? Cool, they must have streetcars? Nope.

[Innsertnamehere]

At least it will make a bit more sense again once the LRT opens.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

As a smaller city, they might not do continuous procurement of buses.

I am not really sure what this means but Halifax Transit has buses in its fleet from just about every year from 2004-2019 according to Wikipedia and they seem to always have some on order. They have been planning for the renewal of a significant portion of the buses for a few years. I'd guess that they'll start by replacing the older ones.

Whether or not they're willing to get rid of diesel buses a bit before the end of the their life I am not sure, but it is possible this makes sense given the emissions targets they have, the operating costs of the electrics, and the logistics. Maybe it's not worth spending 3-4 years running old diesel buses when 80% of the fleet is electric.

[thewave46]

Originally Posted by someone123

I am not really sure what this means but Halifax Transit has buses in its fleet from just about every year from 2004-2019 according to Wikipedia and they seem to always have some on order. They have been planning for the renewal of a significant portion of the buses for a few years. I'd guess that they'll start by replacing the older ones.

Whether or not they're willing to get rid of diesel buses a bit before the end of the their life I am not sure, but it is possible this makes sense given the emissions targets they have, the operating costs of the electrics, and the logistics. Maybe it's not worth spending 3-4 years running old diesel buses when 80% of the fleet is electric.

I'm curious about what the lifespan is of a municipal diesel bus. They're pounded on pretty hard, but they're proven. Rolling over an entire fleet ahead of its natural replacement seems ambitious.

While this is interesting news for Halifax, I'm wondering if a go-slow approach may be better, unless their fleet plans dictate replacement. Take a few on, see how they perform over a few years. Do the batteries hold up?

London, UK got burned with its diesel-hybrid Routemaster buses for a bit.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by thewave46

While this is interesting news for Halifax, I'm wondering if a go-slow approach may be better, unless their fleet plans dictate replacement. Take a few on, see how they perform over a few years. Do the batteries hold up?

Maybe there will be problems but this isn't new. The first hybrid pilot in Halifax was in 2010. Halifax Transit has been studying this for many years and finally seems to have "pulled the trigger".

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by thewave46

I'm curious about what the lifespan is of a municipal diesel bus.

Generally 12-15 years. Not sure what Halifax's particular replacement cycle is.

Originally Posted by thewave46

They're pounded on pretty hard, but they're proven. Rolling over an entire fleet ahead of its natural replacement seems ambitious.

Presumably if their last bus was procured in 2019, that would put replacement to spend 2031-2034. So 2028 is a bit early. But not really crazy. And with the carbon tax going up to $170/tonne, the case to retire those buses earlier may be decent.

Originally Posted by thewave46

While this is interesting news for Halifax, I'm wondering if a go-slow approach may be better, unless their fleet plans dictate replacement. Take a few on, see how they perform over a few years. Do the batteries hold up?

I have argued for years that transit authorities should have been doing trials all along to learn how BEBs perform in their particular operating context. But most transit authorities seem to have slept on this. In no small part, because many seem to have decided they'll just go off the data that come from Toronto, Montreal, Edmonton and Vancouver on their electric bus fleets.

Originally Posted by thewave46

London, UK got burned with its diesel-hybrid Routemaster buses for a bit.

A lot of cities got burned with hybrids. Most of them didn't deliver nearly the savings that were promised. So far electric buses don't generally seem to be heading in the direction. Manufacturers are a bit more honest with the limitations. And transit authorities are largely scheduling them according to those limits. Hopefully the tech keeps getting better and confidence keeps growing.

[MalcolmTucker]

Originally Posted by someone123

I am not really sure what this means but Halifax Transit has buses in its fleet from just about every year from 2004-2019 according to Wikipedia and they seem to always have some on order. They have been planning for the renewal of a significant portion of the buses for a few years. I'd guess that they'll start by replacing the older ones.

Whether or not they're willing to get rid of diesel buses a bit before the end of the their life I am not sure, but it is possible this makes sense given the emissions targets they have, the operating costs of the electrics, and the logistics. Maybe it's not worth spending 3-4 years running old diesel buses when 80% of the fleet is electric.

And there is a used market - iirc Calgary retires buses earlier than Ottawa, and Ottawa bought some of Calgary's buses to fill their gap a few years back (lower mileage than those used on the transit-way).

By year 10 of a 15 year amortization, if you can sell for half of that remaining useful life while closing your diesel shops, the case is probably compelling $ wise.

[J.OT13]

Yup, 12-15 years. That's OC Transpo's general cycle (though they use to keep them 20-30+ years). The switch from diesel to electric is completely based on the currently planned replacement cycle, which I'm happy with. The most ecological bus (or anything, really) is generally the one you have now.

Great to see that other municipalities are moving to all electric in the coming years as well.

Speaking of OC's electric buses, our first 4 are supposed to be received and in service by end of year. Here's a sneak peak, spotted in Winnipeg.


https://twitter.com/OC_Transpo/status/1416069297248604161


https://twitter.com/JimWatsonOttawa/status/1416052702140903425

[Innsertnamehere]

TTC ran on an 18 year lifecycle for a long time, only recently converting to a 15 year lifecycle. They had been pushing to do it for years to reduce ongoing maitenence costs but the burst of capital funding to do it (need to buy 4 years worth of buses in 1 year) kept them away from it for a while. I think only with their most recent deliveries are they finally shifting to a 15 year cycle. The TTC bus fleet is just short of 2,000 vehicles too, so the capital cost of the shift was to the tune of a couple hundred million dollars.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

By year 10 of a 15 year amortization, if you can sell for half of that remaining useful life while closing your diesel shops, the case is probably compelling $ wise.

I would argue the US is going to be 5+ years behind us in transit electrification. Might as well retire The buses early, get some value on the American market, and avoid higher carbon taxes in Canada.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

The most ecological bus (or anything, really) is generally the one you have now.

That's actually not true. Buses burn way more during their service left than what is embedded in their construction.

[manny_santos]

Originally Posted by thewave46

I'm curious about what the lifespan is of a municipal diesel bus. They're pounded on pretty hard, but they're proven. Rolling over an entire fleet ahead of its natural replacement seems ambitious.

While this is interesting news for Halifax, I'm wondering if a go-slow approach may be better, unless their fleet plans dictate replacement. Take a few on, see how they perform over a few years. Do the batteries hold up?

London, UK got burned with its diesel-hybrid Routemaster buses for a bit.

At one point London, ON had buses that were 20 years old or more. When I started at Western in 2005, they still had at least one GM "fishbowl" in the fleet that dated from about 1976, even had the old-school leather seats. They also had a number of buses from the mid-80s still in service. Some even still had sticker with a fare increase notice from 1988 above the door. That fishbowl bus was gone from service by maybe 2007, and those mid-80s buses were mostly gone by 2009.

When I was at Western there were a few ex-Quebec City buses still in service as well, also dating from the 80s.

While not a municipal diesel bus, there are SkyTrain cars on the Expo Line that date from 1985, and some even still have the white BC Transit colour scheme, though updated with the TransLink logo.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by manny_santos

At one point London, ON had buses that were 20 years old or more. When I started at Western in 2005, they still had at least one GM "fishbowl" in the fleet that dated from about 1976, even had the old-school leather seats. They also had a number of buses from the mid-80s still in service. Some even still had sticker with a fare increase notice from 1988 above the door. That fishbowl bus was gone from service by maybe 2007, and those mid-80s buses were mostly gone by 2009.

When I was at Western there were a few ex-Quebec City buses still in service as well, also dating from the 80s.

While not a municipal diesel bus, there are SkyTrain cars on the Expo Line that date from 1985, and some even still have the white BC Transit colour scheme, though updated with the TransLink logo.

Ottawa had quite a few fishbowls, and other 80s buses, when I started college in 2006 as well. I think a few survived up until 2011 when our fleet went fully accessible. I believe the STO kept theirs going until 2016 or maybe beyond. Awesome, comfortable, spacious, reliable buses. Easy to re-pair and re-build. Just not accessible.