Metro Vancouver Road Infrastructure Discussion

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

And they're charging the same rate as the other networks. I think that's all because as a crown corporation they don't want to be seen as having an unfair advantage over the other companies.

I think they are the cheapest aren't they? 21 cents a min? CoV charges around 27 I believe. Tesla beats them all because the charge rate is to fast. 21 cents at 50kW isn't bad, but 48 cents for 250kw is better. Even if you let it slow down to 150-ish.

They are charging so as to limit usage to those who "really need it". I believe.

That said, their more remote rest stop locations are still free. There's no authorization to start a charge, which makes sense because cell reception and other troubleshooting is more difficult in those spots. My personal fav is Hope Slide. 2 x L3 chargers and 1 L2 backup. Nice spot to chill out and explore for a few minutes while you get some free juice.

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

I think they are the cheapest aren't they? 21 cents a min? CoV charges around 27 I believe. Tesla beats them all because the charge rate is to fast. 21 cents at 50kW isn't

BC Hydro is $0.27/min, same as the other networks if you've got an account with them.

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

My personal fav is Hope Slide. 2 x L3 chargers and 1 L2 backup. Nice spot to chill out and explore for a few minutes while you get some free juice.

I got burned at the Hope Slide a couple of months back - the right hand charger errorred out after giving my less than 10kWh, and I wasn't able to get the left hand one to start at all. I had to go back to Hope to charge at Petro Can because I didn't want to put all my faith in the one charger at Manning Park.

On my most recent trip to Manning Park the BC Hydro charger was busy (and it's only 25kW now), the Petro Can chargers were down, and I couldn't get any of the Electrify Canada chargers to work. I had to take a chance on the Hope Slide - luckily the right hand charger gave me 24kWh before it errorred out. Good thing, because the charger at Manning Park was down too.

The CCS charging infrastructure is going to need to get a lot more reliable if EV adoption is going to get much more widespread.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

On my most recent trip to Manning Park the BC Hydro charger was busy (and it's only 25kW now), the Petro Can chargers were down, and I couldn't get any of the Electrify Canada chargers to work. I had to take a chance on the Hope Slide - luckily the right hand charger gave me 24kWh before it errorred out. Good thing, because the charger at Manning Park was down too.

The CCS charging infrastructure is going to need to get a lot more reliable if EV adoption is going to get much more widespread.

Manning needs more power, not less, it seems to be popular.

That sounds like a lot of hassle, that's too bad. The Superchargers are really Tesla's secret sauce. You can see exactly how busy they are from within the car. So many chargers that 1-2 offline are not a big deal (and always noted).

[shreddog]

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

...On my most recent trip to Manning Park the BC Hydro charger was busy (and it's only 25kW now), the Petro Can chargers were down, and I couldn't get any of the Electrify Canada chargers to work. I had to take a chance on the Hope Slide - luckily the right hand charger gave me 24kWh before it errorred out. Good thing, because the charger at Manning Park was down too...

Stupid/not so stupid question - what happens if you run out of "juice"? If someone runs out of gas, they call BCAA or Bob's Towing and pay through the nose for 40L to get to a station somewhere. I know Telsa recommends calling a flatbed in the worst case scenario to get transported to a charging station, but is that always an option? Has this happened to anyone?

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by shreddog

Stupid/not so stupid question - what happens if you run out of "juice"? If someone runs out of gas, they call BCAA or Bob's Towing and pay through the nose for 40L to get to a station somewhere. I know Telsa recommends calling a flatbed in the worst case scenario to get transported to a charging station, but is that always an option? Has this happened to anyone?

Yeah worst case is a flat tow. The navigation app will tell you where to stop and charge (supercharger) and for how long to get to your destination.

It will also tell you to slow down if it thinks you're getting too close to running out (like go 80 km/h instead of 125).

It hasn't happened to anyone I know. You can charge off of a household outlet in an emergency, but very slowly.

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

Yeah worst case is a flat tow.

I have a Chevy Bolt, which you can just tow normally by the front wheels. The only caution is that the car is always "awake" (it has a 12V battery that runs the electronics even when the main battery is empty) and it will lock up the rear brakes if it thinks it's rolling downhill. So I carry a 10mm wrench to use to disconnect the 12V battery if I ever find myself in a situation where I need a tow. In over 40 years of driving I've only ever had to be towed once after my VW Rabbit unceremoniously died on me at Broadway and Cambie many years ago.

I carry a portable AC charger with me and I can charge, albeit slowly, from any 120V, 240V/30A, or 240V/50A outlet in a pinch.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Hopefully the next gen switches to sodium-ion or lithium-sulfur and won't have to worry as much about range.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Hopefully the next gen switches to sodium-ion or lithium-sulfur and won't have to worry as much about range.

We're a long ways from switching battery technology. Range on current generation EVs is fine.

You're far more likely to be sidelined by another problem like a tire blowout.

[Klazu]

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

I got burned at the Hope Slide a couple of months back - the right hand charger errorred out after giving my less than 10kWh, and I wasn't able to get the left hand one to start at all. I had to go back to Hope to charge at Petro Can because I didn't want to put all my faith in the one charger at Manning Park.

On my most recent trip to Manning Park the BC Hydro charger was busy (and it's only 25kW now), the Petro Can chargers were down, and I couldn't get any of the Electrify Canada chargers to work. I had to take a chance on the Hope Slide - luckily the right hand charger gave me 24kWh before it errorred out. Good thing, because the charger at Manning Park was down too.

Jeez, that sounds awfully stressful and very time-consuming. What's with so many stories of charging stations not working regardless of country or provider. It shouldn't take space-age technology to charge a battery.

[DKaz]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

per kW is actually not legal in Canada except when the utilities do it.

Funny even BC Hydro is charging per minute for their chargers.

Oh interesting.

— though because say with a 30 minute charge for $9.90, an F150 with a 150kW charger can get 75 kW of power (13.2 cents per kW) while a Chevrolet Bolt with a 55 kW charger will only get 27.5 kW of power (36 cents per kW). Something for future EV owners to consider. The bigger the Level 3 charging capability, the cheaper the road trips.

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by DKaz

Oh interesting.
— though because say with a 30 minute charge for $9.90, an F150 with a 150kW charger can get 75 kW of power (13.2 cents per kW) while a Chevrolet Bolt with a 55 kW charger will only get 27.5 kW of power (36 cents per kW). Something for future EV owners to consider. The bigger the Level 3 charging capability, the cheaper the road trips.

Rates vary depending on power level. For example Electrify Canada charges $0.27/min for 0-90kW and $0.57/min above that. You get the best deal if your car charges at around 85kW...

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by Klazu

Jeez, that sounds awfully stressful and very time-consuming. What's with so many stories of charging stations not working regardless of country or provider. It shouldn't take space-age technology to charge a battery.

Yeah, it's a drag. I think one of the big problems is that these stations are not attended and not owned by individuals who are motivated to get them fixed ASAP the way a gas franchise owner would be.

[Tvisforme]

Originally Posted by Klazu

Jeez, that sounds awfully stressful and very time-consuming. What's with so many stories of charging stations not working regardless of country or provider. It shouldn't take space-age technology to charge a battery.

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

Yeah, it's a drag. I think one of the big problems is that these stations are not attended and not owned by individuals who are motivated to get them fixed ASAP the way a gas franchise owner would be.

To be honest, it is to be expected (IMHO) given that we are at the start of the rollout of a brand-new technology. It's not just "charging a battery", it is delivering enough power at high enough rates to charge devices that use more power than anything else consumers have ever typically charged at a rate as close as possible to what they currently experience at a gas pump. Think back to when PCs began to enter homes (slow, crash-prone, expensive) or cellular phones first came out (heavy, poor reception, really expensive). Today's consumer would never accept those early devices, but at the time we did power through the bumps because it was so new.

[Klazu]

I am just happy some people have the time and patience to beta test this technology on everyone else's behalf. Interesting to hear the days of free charging having also come to and end so quickly. The price of electricity and associated taxes is only going to go up to compensate for decline in gas taxes.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Whatever new charging tax Victoria comes up with, it'll be chump change against $1.90 a litre (possibly $2.25 by the end of August).

[Alex Mackinnon]

Originally Posted by DKaz

Oh interesting.

— though because say with a 30 minute charge for $9.90, an F150 with a 150kW charger can get 75 kW of power (13.2 cents per kW) while a Chevrolet Bolt with a 55 kW charger will only get 27.5 kW of power (36 cents per kW). Something for future EV owners to consider. The bigger the Level 3 charging capability, the cheaper the road trips.

Or something for today's politicians to sort out before adoption gets too widespread. By the kW is the only way most public chargers should be billing in my opinion.

For my Volt, it only accepts 3.3 kW and doesn't do L3 at all (because small battery with gas motor backup). The rate the city charges for a L2 charger is currently more expensive than gas (even at $1.70/L).

EVs also have some varying charge rates. The 150 kW rate on that F150 is the peak. As the battery fills up, it has to slow down the charge rate. This accommodates the heat which builds up in the battery, and the fact that as the battery fills up, there's less available places to put the electrons.

That 150 kW would therefore be the peak rate. The average charge rate would probably be a fair bit less because of the taper. Most people using L3 chargers generally only charge up to about 80% to limit the effect of the taper and the wear on the battery.

[Alex Mackinnon]

Originally Posted by Klazu

I am just happy some people have the time and patience to beta test this technology on everyone else's behalf. Interesting to hear the days of free charging having also come to and end so quickly. The price of electricity and associated taxes is only going to go up to compensate for decline in gas taxes.

Its been 10 years since the first Tesla was commerically available.

[jollyburger]

Originally Posted by Klazu

I am just happy some people have the time and patience to beta test this technology on everyone else's behalf. Interesting to hear the days of free charging having also come to and end so quickly. The price of electricity and associated taxes is only going to go up to compensate for decline in gas taxes.

I think there's this common BS notion that EV or central energy is somehow free. At best you get huge incentive rebates but on cost it's not even necessarily cheaper (central energy).

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by jollyburger

I think there's this common BS notion that EV or central energy is somehow free. At best you get huge incentive rebates but on cost it's not even necessarily cheaper (central energy).

Over the past several years it has literally been free at the BC Hydro fast charging stations. You pull up, plug in, and the power flows. The big problem with this is that's a huge motivator for people to charge there rather than in their own garages where they have to pay for the juice, and as a result the free chargers were always in use.

Personally I'm glad that BC Hydro is now requiring payment for EV charging because it means that the chargers are much more likely to be available.

Central energy generation has the advantage of the economics of scale. This same advantage usually means that fossil fuel generation of electricity can be done more efficiently, cleanly and with less CO2 emission than local generation using fossil fuels.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by DKaz

Oh interesting.

— though because say with a 30 minute charge for $9.90, an F150 with a 150kW charger can get 75 kW of power (13.2 cents per kW) while a Chevrolet Bolt with a 55 kW charger will only get 27.5 kW of power (36 cents per kW). Something for future EV owners to consider. The bigger the Level 3 charging capability, the cheaper the road trips.

Yes, it makes the math complex, because the rate of charge will also vary based on the level of charge in the battery, and sometimes temperature.

Under ideal conditions, I can plug in my Tesla at say 2% battery, and hit 250kW until about 25%, then it will taper down to around 180kW by 50%.

I can get 50% charge (37.5 kWh) in say 12 mins = $5.76 = 15.4c/kWh. Safe to say that Tesla is paying BC Hydro a lot more than that.

Fast charging is always going to cost more. The argument against kWh billing is that people will hog the chargers to get their cars up to 90-100% charge. Batteries charge slowly at the very end.