VIA Rail network developments

[roger1818]

And from Transport Canada's Twitter account. Interesting that it shows an Ottawa HFR bypass.

[lrt's friend]

So, we are anticipating Montreal-Toronto express trains as part of HFR using the Winchester subdivision. This is likely the only way to get travel times down to 4 hours.

[TransitZilla]

Very interesting. Too bad Ottawa won't be a stop for all trains, but it looks like that's the only way to have a significant improvement to the Tor-Mtl travel time.

Also looks like they will be using the line that goes through Vaudreuil-Dorion rather than going through Coteau.

[Richard Eade]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

< snip >

YYZ isn't going to draw for YOW. With or without HFR. YUL on the other hand will be less than 1.5 hrs from Tremblay. With trains running every 30-60 mins. And connecting with a single stop on REM. So 2-2:15 hrs from downtown Ottawa to the check in counter at Dorval with HFR and REM. It becomes really possible to cross-shop flights out of YUL then. Especially for international flights where connections would be required anyway.

With all due respect, I must ask why you think that it would be impossible for there to be some integration between trains and planes for a hub system out of YYZ?

Air France runs buses between the Ottawa Station and YUL; and those bus runs are the first/last leg of a longer journey.

I can buy an air ticket from Ottawa which includes a short hop, by air, from YOW to YYZ, and then a transfer to a larger plane to get to my final destination. (There is usually an hour or more between arriving at YYZ on the small plane and leaving on the bigger plane.)

Now imagine that train and plane travel could be integrated, as the bus and plane are for Air France. If I buy a flight from Ottawa to someplace that 'requires' a transfer at YYZ, why are you so sure that the first leg could never be on a train? Because, if it were somehow possible, YYZ trips could reduce the passenger count from YOW - if that first jump of a trip is by train instead of a short flight. Not EVERY plane destined for somewhere that has no direct flight from YOW will be leaving from YUL.

So, why are you positive that a direct 3h15 train ride from Ottawa to the check-in desk at YYZ could not replace a plane ride from YOW to YYZ?

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Richard Eade

So, why are you positive that a direct 3h15 train ride from Ottawa to the check-in desk at YYZ could not replace a plane ride from YOW to YYZ?

It could if that was the offer. But it's not what is being planned. What is being planned is a ~3h train ride from Tremblay to Union station. And then you need to transfer to the Union Pearson Express for another 25 min ride to Pearson. And the UPE runs every 15 mins. So in reality we're talking about 3.5 - 4 hrs from Tremblay to Pearson. And that's being generous with the transfer times at Union.


On the other hand, with HFR, Tremblay to Dorval will be just under 1.5 hrs. The REM runs 10 mins at peak and 15 mins off-peak and it's only one stop from Dorval. So worst case scenario is less than 2 hrs from Tremblay to a check in desk at Dorval.

I'm curious to see if airlines like Air France and KLM continue with their shuttle buses or simply codeshare with VIA and give a REM ticket or shuttle bus from Dorval station. Heck at 1.2 km, maybe they should just build a long movator.

[originalmuffins]

Originally Posted by roger1818

And from Transport Canada's Twitter account. Interesting that it shows an Ottawa HFR bypass.

It's actually ridiculous Ottawa is being bypassed for an express route. It should be in all routes, express or not lol. It's a metro area of 1.5 million with Gatineau and expected to hit 2 million within the next 20 years. What a joke.

Also, another concern is other network's are running 300km/hr, I know some say well Canada doesn't have the population to support it.... This is true when you count total land area, but not when you compare pockets where the services would run. No one thinks a Vancouver to Halifax line is viable but the Quebec-Windsor corridor has a population close to 20million with a density as much as Europe. This corridor can easily sustain it. Same when you create a direct line between Edmonton and Calgary (the cluster of population for Alberta).

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by Richard Eade

With all due respect, I must ask why you think that it would be impossible for there to be some integration between trains and planes for a hub system out of YYZ?

Air France runs buses between the Ottawa Station and YUL; and those bus runs are the first/last leg of a longer journey.

I can buy an air ticket from Ottawa which includes a short hop, by air, from YOW to YYZ, and then a transfer to a larger plane to get to my final destination. (There is usually an hour or more between arriving at YYZ on the small plane and leaving on the bigger plane.)

Now imagine that train and plane travel could be integrated, as the bus and plane are for Air France. If I buy a flight from Ottawa to someplace that 'requires' a transfer at YYZ, why are you so sure that the first leg could never be on a train? Because, if it were somehow possible, YYZ trips could reduce the passenger count from YOW - if that first jump of a trip is by train instead of a short flight. Not EVERY plane destined for somewhere that has no direct flight from YOW will be leaving from YUL.

So, why are you positive that a direct 3h15 train ride from Ottawa to the check-in desk at YYZ could not replace a plane ride from YOW to YYZ?

It won’t be 3:15 to the check in desk, the train will have to stop at Union (or summerhill) and the intermodal hub will not be at the checkin desk.

I can’t imagine any scenario where that makes sense. You have to go through airport security and checkin anyway, and the lines are shorter in Ottawa. The travel time is still two hours shorter. The boarding time is shorter on the train, so maybe that saves 20 minutes, but you’re still losing an hour and a half and increasing the inconvenience. Plus airlines usually throw in the YOW-YYZ leg for very little if you’re buying an international ticket, so the cost would be higher as well.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by originalmuffins

It's actually ridiculous Ottawa is being bypassed for an express route. It should be in all routes, express or not lol. It's a metro area of 1.5 million with Gatineau and expected to hit 2 million within the next 20 years. What a joke.

Also, another concern is other network's are running 300km/hr, I know some say well Canada doesn't have the population to support it.... This is true when you count total land area, but not when you compare pockets where the services would run. No one thinks a Vancouver to Halifax line is viable but the Quebec-Windsor corridor has a population close to 20million with a density as much as Europe. This corridor can easily sustain it. Same when you create a direct line between Edmonton and Calgary (the cluster of population for Alberta).

The chances of all of that getting built are very low. Building entirely new low speed rails lines bypassing Ottawa to shave maybe 20 minutes off a trip doesn't make sense. Yes without it the most important route only gets a 20 minute saving so they need to show it now. There is an election soon. Trois Riviere, Peterbourough just happen to be important ridings. Pure coincidence.

[waterloowarrior]

CP has been upgrading the signalling in the Winchester Sub recently (Smith's Falls to Dorion)https://www.trains.com/trn/news-reviews/...-track-add-ctc-to-main-line-to-montreal/

[TransitZilla]

Originally Posted by waterloowarrior

CP has been upgrading the signalling in the Winchester Sub recently (Smith's Falls to Dorion)https://www.trains.com/trn/news-reviews/...-track-add-ctc-to-main-line-to-montreal/

Also says they were planning to remove some track to go down to single track. Did they start doing that? Is VIA planning to add it back? Potentially dedicated tracks for VIA within the same corridor?

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by bradnixon

Also says they were planning to remove some track to go down to single track. Did they start doing that?

Back in post #1958 I mentioned that the tracks had already been removed in September. The article waterloowarrior posted was from last July.

Originally Posted by bradnixon

Is VIA planning to add it back? Potentially dedicated tracks for VIA within the same corridor?

It is certainly possible.

[c_speed3108]

I think it is important to remember some of this is a negotiation position for getting trains in and out of Montreal. They are showing each side they have options.

It's unlike that bypass would come to be, but a small section coming out of Montreal is possible.

[Innsertnamehere]

Originally Posted by bradnixon

Also says they were planning to remove some track to go down to single track. Did they start doing that? Is VIA planning to add it back? Potentially dedicated tracks for VIA within the same corridor?

VIA replacing it with their own track would make for some very affordable bypass track as all the structures and even ballast and grading is already in place. Makes sense VIA is considering it.

I can totally see the bypass happening if it's affordable, which it very well may be. If you can build it affordably, it would probably be fairly good value for money if the time savings for it are indeed in the 30-45 minute range over going through Ottawa so that they can run some express Toronto-Montreal trains with some really good travel times.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by originalmuffins

It's actually ridiculous Ottawa is being bypassed for an express route. It should be in all routes, express or not lol. It's a metro area of 1.5 million with Gatineau and expected to hit 2 million within the next 20 years. What a joke.

I don't get the outrage that some of the Montreal-Toronto Trains will bypass Ottawa. I suspect that it will only be a few trains a day, at times when there is enough demand to support separate Montreal-Toronto and Ottawa-Montreal trains. They will likely also charge a premium for the express trains and those on a budget will travel through Ottawa. As long as Ottawa has frequent service to both Toronto and Montreal, what does it matter if not all trains stop in Ottawa? That sounds pretty entitled to me.

Originally Posted by YOWetal

The chances of all of that getting built are very low. Building entirely new low speed rails lines bypassing Ottawa to shave maybe 20 minutes off a trip doesn't make sense. Yes without it the most important route only gets a 20 minute saving so they need to show it now. There is an election soon. Trois Riviere, Peterbourough just happen to be important ridings. Pure coincidence.

While I agree that they may not build everything (they certainly won't build it all at once), but by my estimation the bypass would reduce the Montreal-Toronto travel time by more like 35 minutes. If you consider:

• 5 extra minutes to slow to a stop in Ottawa,
• 5 minute dwell time in Ottawa for the hundreds of passengers to get on and off,
• 20 minutes to travel to Fallowfield (it is to close for it to get up to speed).
• 5 extra minutes to accelerate back up to speed.

Originally Posted by originalmuffins

Also, another concern is other network's are running 300km/hr, I know some say well Canada doesn't have the population to support it.... This is true when you count total land area, but not when you compare pockets where the services would run. No one thinks a Vancouver to Halifax line is viable but the Quebec-Windsor corridor has a population close to 20million with a density as much as Europe. This corridor can easily sustain it. Same when you create a direct line between Edmonton and Calgary (the cluster of population for Alberta).

HSR would be significantly more expensive as it would require a straighter route, meaning both expropriation costs and dealing with the obstacles that caused the route to not be straight in the first place. It also requires a fully fenced off, grade separated corridor. There just isn't the political will to spend that amount of money. While half the population is inside the Corridor, that means half of the voting public are outside the Corridor, and are apathetic to rail service in the corridor. In democracies with HSR, the vast majority of the population has easy access to the trains (either directly or indirectly).

On top of that, counties with HSR also started with, and continue to have, strong intercity (not high speed) rail service that is more heavily used than the high speed trains that get all the glory.

HFR is a significant improvement over the status quo. Building it will demonstrate to Canadians that trains can be frequent, reliable and most of all, well used (things they aren't today). Once they see what can be done, there will be more appetite for HSR.

[TransitZilla]

Originally Posted by roger1818

HFR is a significant improvement over the status quo. Building it will demonstrate to Canadians that trains can be frequent, reliable and most of all, well used (things they aren't today). Once they see what can be done, there will be more appetite for HSR.

Agree. This is an important stepping stone to future improvements, not the end-all and be-all.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere

VIA replacing it with their own track would make for some very affordable bypass track as all the structures and even ballast and grading is already in place. Makes sense VIA is considering it.

I can totally see the bypass happening if it's affordable, which it very well may be. If you can build it affordably, it would probably be fairly good value for money if the time savings for it are indeed in the 30-45 minute range over going through Ottawa so that they can run some express Toronto-Montreal trains with some really good travel times.

That is my thinking. Speeding up travel along the Havelock Sub will be very expensive. This bypass might be viewed as a more affordable way of getting Montreal-Toronto travel times down to a scheduled time that is competitive with what they have seen on the Lakeshore in the past, without the delays due to freight interference.

Don't forget that the 3h59 trains ran only once or twice a day each way. The other trains at the time were slower (often much slower) and were never very frequent either. If VIA can have a couple express trains a day that match that time (charging a premium to ride them) and then have the remainder of the trains take longer (but still faster than the other trains were back in the day), that would silence a lot of the vocal critics.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by roger1818

I don't get the outrage that some of the Montreal-Toronto Trains will bypass Ottawa. I suspect that it will only be a few trains a day, at times when there is enough demand to support separate Montreal-Toronto and Ottawa-Montreal trains. They will likely also charge a premium for the express trains and those on a budget will travel through Ottawa. As long as Ottawa has frequent service to both Toronto and Montreal, what does it matter if not all trains stop in Ottawa? That sounds pretty entitled to me.

I think it’s a legitimate concern. I am wondering too, about how they sustain “high frequency” by splitting the service. We will have this strange situation where the highest frequency portion of service is Toronto-Peterborough-Smiths Falls. And both the multi-million resident eastern metros have half the frequency of that stretch.

It also seems a bit cost-inefficient to me. They could easily spend the money they are spending on the bypass on VIA’s own corridor to speed it up and/or allow station skipping (double or triple track portions). I get that doing this might be more expensive than just building the bypass. But surely with the expanded budget, there’s room for exactly this kind of investment?

I guess we’ll see what their plans are in the Fall with the RFP. But on the face of it, I think those of us in Ottawa are right to be a little bit concerned.

Originally Posted by roger1818

HSR would be significantly more expensive as it would require a straighter route, meaning both expropriation costs and dealing with the obstacles that caused the route to not be straight in the first place. It also requires a fully fenced off, grade separated corridor. There just isn't the political will to spend that amount of money. While half the population is inside the Corridor, that means half of the voting public are outside the Corridor, and are apathetic to rail service in the corridor. In democracies with HSR, the vast majority of the population has easy access to the trains (either directly or indirectly).

I don’t think all those complaining about HSR really understand how much it would cost. The Ecotrain study was $21B in 2009 for 300 kph electrified HSR for the full Quebec-Windsor corridor. That would be something like $26 billion today. And probably $30-35 billion in current year dollars by the time it was built in 15-20 years. More than that, the $15B it would take just to build 300 kph electric HSR between Toronto, Ottawa and Montreal would get it killed at the earliest available opportunity by a conservative government pushing austerity. And though they are complaining about the price tag of HFR, it just might have more of a chance than full HSR.

Originally Posted by roger1818

On top of that, countries with HSR also started with, and continue to have, strong intercity (not high speed) rail service that is more heavily used than the high speed trains that get all the glory.

Higher speed rail (HrSR) also known as High Performance Rail (HPR) is term you are looking for. Services that run at or just below 200 kph and are frequent (hourly or better). Europe and Asia have tons of these kinds of services. And they actually comprise the majority of services and carry the majority of passengers. But Canadians who go on vacations and only travel between major cities don’t often realize this.

Originally Posted by roger1818

HFR is a significant improvement over the status quo. Building it will demonstrate to Canadians that trains can be frequent, reliable and most of all, well used (things they aren't today). Once they see what can be done, there will be more appetite for HSR.

Yep. It will change they way people look at trains. And maybe even car dependency at the periphery. You won’t need a car anymore to travel between the largest cities of the Corridor at least.

Looking at how HSR evolved elsewhere, I think once this thing actually starts running the demand for extensions and upgrades will be substantial. Just look how much HSR Spain built that was economically inefficient, almost entirely driven by politics after the first few lines were built.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

I think it’s a legitimate concern. I am wondering too, about how they sustain “high frequency” by splitting the service. We will have this strange situation where the highest frequency portion of service is Toronto-Peterborough-Smiths Falls. And both the multi-million resident eastern metros have half the frequency of that stretch.

It also seems a bit cost-inefficient to me. They could easily spend the money they are spending on the bypass on VIA’s own corridor to speed it up and/or allow station skipping (double or triple track portions). I get that doing this might be more expensive than just building the bypass. But surely with the expanded budget, there’s room for exactly this kind of investment?

As discussed, I think this option came up because CP has recently removed 60 miles of double track between Smiths Falls and Dorian, so the ROW is there, the ballast is there, there are few crossings (relatively speaking), and it is as straight as an arrow. As a result, the cost/benefit ratio is likely very favorable.

While I agree upgrades west of Smiths Falls would be more beneficial overall, I have to wonder how much time savings can be achieved for a similar cost. I don't know, but I suspect that straightening one curve (which might save a couple minutes) could cost the same as the entire bypass.

The bypass may not end up happening, but it is wise to investigate the option.

[Hybrid247]

So would CP sell its trackage between Havelock and the rail yard in Agincourt to VIA or is it assumed that that section of trackage would remain under CP ownership?

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Hybrid247

So would CP sell its trackage between Havelock and the rail yard in Agincourt to VIA or is it assumed that that section of trackage would remain under CP ownership?

Either that or they would lease it to VIA. Either way, CP would retain the right to run trains overnight when VIA isn't using the track.

As I said over on UT: CP only runs 3 trains a week each way on the Havelock Sub. and are only maintaining it to Class 1 standards, so it takes 12 hours to get from the Toronto Yard to Havelock. By letting VIA buy/lease the ROW and improve the track, CP can do the same trip in a couple hours, allowing them to do the return trip in one night (while VIA isn't using the track), which will save a lot of money in labour and equipment utilization, so it is a win/win.