VIA Rail

[Truenorth00]

I really don't get how splitting Ottawa and Montreal traffic will let them keep frequencies up. Nor do I get how a shared corridor with CP freight will work for those frequencies or electrification. We'll see in the RFP I guess.

I wonder if this is something where only a handful of peak time departures use the bypass and the majority of trains stay on the VIA owned corridor.

[Innsertnamehere]

I wouldn’t be surprised if they just build a dedicated track on the CP corridor, there isn’t a lot of bridge work or land needs. Just build a new track that CP doesn’t use.

Probably would only cost a couple hundred million, plus more if it’s electrified.

[Urban_Sky]

Originally Posted by GoTrans

In spite of this, I am still agreement with train service to Banff from Calgary but I think the Calgary Edmonton route is a higher priority.

Unfortunately for you and swimmer_spe, there don't seem to be that many people in Alberta that share (let alone: care about) your priorities...

[technomad]

Originally Posted by Urban_Sky

Unfortunately for you and swimmer_spe, there don't seem to be that many people in Alberta that share your priorities...

probably because most people from alberta posting about this have read the HSR studies and know that the EDM<>CAL link is about replacing air traffic, not personal vehicles.

and now with oil in the —, along with calgary's office market, the YYC runway shortage doesn't seem as dire or near as it once did.

the banff train at least gets the infrastructure started, and puts the idea of rail back into the local hive-mind. it will also go over well with the tourist crowd, many of whom come from rail rich areas like europe and asia.

[Truenorth00]

Amtrak just placed a massive order for Siemens Charger/Venture trainsets. And in there is an order for battery hybrid trainsets.

https://www.railwaygazette.com/traction-...r-city-fleet-renewal-order/59479.article

If VIA can exercise their Siemens options and get these, their rolling stock question is solved for HFR.

[Airboy]

As you are talking about the Ed-Cal corridor, this from Coldrx on the Edmonton forum popped up today.

EllisDon to Lead Prairie Link High-Speed Rail Partners

Edmonton, AB, July 8, 2021—EllisDon, a world-leading construction services and infrastructure development company, announced today that they have formed a partnership to advance the development of high-speed rail connecting Edmonton, Red Deer, and Calgary in Alberta, Canada. EllisDon and its team took the initiative to propose the project within the Government of Alberta’s Unsolicited Proposal Guidelines and Framework.

"The notion of high-speed rail — a proven technology around the world — connecting Edmonton, Red Deer, and Calgary in Alberta is not new, but we believe that its time has come. We have built a team with both the capacity and faith in the future of our province to advance it in a meaningful way for Albertans," said Jeffrey Hansen-Carlson, Director with EllisDon Capital and Project Director for Prairie Link.

Prairie Link has secured a Memorandum of Understanding (MOU) from Alberta Transportation laying the foundation for cooperatively advancing project development. With an estimated capital cost of $9 billion, the project will be among the largest and most defining nation-building transportation projects in Alberta's history.

https://www.ellisdon.com/news/ellisd...rail-partners/

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by Airboy

As you are talking about the Ed-Cal corridor, this from Coldrx on the Edmonton forum popped up today.

EllisDon to Lead Prairie Link High-Speed Rail Partners

Edmonton, AB, July 8, 2021—EllisDon, a world-leading construction services and infrastructure development company, announced today that they have formed a partnership to advance the development of high-speed rail connecting Edmonton, Red Deer, and Calgary in Alberta, Canada. EllisDon and its team took the initiative to propose the project within the Government of Alberta’s Unsolicited Proposal Guidelines and Framework.

"The notion of high-speed rail — a proven technology around the world — connecting Edmonton, Red Deer, and Calgary in Alberta is not new, but we believe that its time has come. We have built a team with both the capacity and faith in the future of our province to advance it in a meaningful way for Albertans," said Jeffrey Hansen-Carlson, Director with EllisDon Capital and Project Director for Prairie Link.

Prairie Link has secured a Memorandum of Understanding (MOU) from Alberta Transportation laying the foundation for cooperatively advancing project development. With an estimated capital cost of $9 billion, the project will be among the largest and most defining nation-building transportation projects in Alberta's history.

https://www.ellisdon.com/news/ellisd...rail-partners/

Very interesting. FYI your link doesn't work but it's below. It also links to a webpage, which doesn't have anything meaningful, but it exists.

https://www.ellisdon.com/news/ellisdon-to-lead-prairie-link-high-speed-rail-partners/
https://www.prairielink.ca/high-speed-rail-in-alberta

[goodgrowth]

haha...wait so this is...happening? It basically sounds like two major private companies have a MOU with the Government of Alberta to build HSR for $9B...

[Truenorth00]

It's great if it's actual happening. Curious to see what the business case looks like after they finish definition. At minimum it's good for them to the analysis and business case started. If they can't build HSR, maybe the feds could use that work for an HFR type proposal.

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Urban Sky explained this a while back. On UrbanToronto I think....

In any event, in the US, the FRA allows 125 mph passenger train operation on Class 7 without grade separation, but has to have some substantial barriers and onboard signalling. See the last page of this pdf:

https://www.apta.com/wp-content/uploads/5.4.4_FRA_Hwy-Rail_Crossing_Guidelines.pdf

Transport Canada hasn't really defined track classes beyond Class 5. So the assumption was that TC might not approve above 110 mph without grade separation. I suspect the government is working on changing that.

However, that still doesn't solve the geometry problem. A lot of the Peterborough-Smiths Falls portion just doesn't have the geometry to support higher speeds. There's a good analysis done by this blog here:

https://ontariotrafficman.wordpress.com/2020/08/17/mythbusting-vias-hfr-travel-time-claims/

Now this has been known for a while, and is presumably included in VIA's projections. But upgrading to fully grade separated would over and above all the straightening required (102 of 397 km as per that analysis).

So while 3 hrs from Toronto-Ottawa is impressive, it's actually not indicative of a substantial amount of 200 kph running. It's a shift from an average of 120 kph to 130 kph (previous estimate was 3:15 hrs). As the blog show above, this is achievable with 110 mph/177 kph running just using straightening.

By the way, we're already seeing the first signs of scope creep with this whole Ottawa bypass thing:

First just for clarity - do we even know if that map is official or just made up by someone?

Thanks for that blog post, very interesting. I'm confused though - unless I am misunderstanding, to achieve 3 hours you'd need to upgrade that long section west of Perth?

So what's going on here? If it is impossible to get 3 hour timings without a substantial section of green field railway, is that what VIA are planning? If not, how are they claiming a 3 hour time? It's possible the guy is wrong, but it comes across as accurate.

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by goodgrowth

haha...wait so this is...happening? It basically sounds like two major private companies have a MOU with the Government of Alberta to build HSR for $9B...

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

It's great if it's actual happening. Curious to see what the business case looks like after they finish definition. At minimum it's good for them to the analysis and business case started. If they can't build HSR, maybe the feds could use that work for an HFR type proposal.

We also have a hyperloop plan with the same level of development (none). So don't count the chickens yet.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by goodgrowth

haha...wait so this is...happening? It basically sounds like two major private companies have a MOU with the Government of Alberta to build HSR for $9B...

Well...

Originally Posted by Airboy

Prairie Link has secured a Memorandum of Understanding (MOU) from Alberta Transportation laying the foundation for cooperatively advancing project development.

• Video Link

[Airboy]

Originally Posted by goodgrowth

haha...wait so this is...happening? It basically sounds like two major private companies have a MOU with the Government of Alberta to build HSR for $9B...

with all the other billions the UCP has flushed I can see them going after another loss here.

I do not think the population base is good enough for this. yah the highways are busy but it is mostly logistics companies.

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by milomilo

True, there are a ton of grade crossings and that does put a hard limit on speed.

I (perhaps naively) hope that many, perhaps 2/3, of those can be just closed leaving the rest to cross the railway. I will also make a semi-baseless prediction that as the project progresses, there will be a push to grade separate many of the remaining ones from various parties.

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

This is the kind of politics that VIA was probably hoping to avoid with HFR. Right now, HFR has sort of been pitched as low impact on these rural areas. They lose a bike trail. There's a small bit of expropriation. But that's about it. Closing 2/3rds of crossings would be a substantial escalation in conflict. One that could well be exploited. Rural organizers actually did exactly that against the Wynne government's HSR proposal for Toronto-Kitchener-London. And the provincial conservatives were more than happy to play along. I hope VIA doesn't play into their hands.

I hate to say it but I think the grade crossings are an inevitable source of conflict either way. If they remain open, as soon as there's a major accident with loss of life there will be calls for speed reduction and grade separation. I can foresee emotions runnign high after such an event and the authorities giving into calls for a speed limit of say 100 km/h though any crossings. There are mitigation measures, however, such as barriers that physically stop outside intrusion but they're a lot more expensive. I think it would be worth it though.

[goodgrowth]

Originally Posted by Airboy

with all the other billions the UCP has flushed I can see them going after another loss here.

I do not think the population base is good enough for this. yah the highways are busy but it is mostly logistics companies.

The fact that it seems like it is being spearheaded by two major construction companies gives it a bit of "realness". I wonder if it was as simple as they seen the MOU will Transpod Hyperloop and seen an opportunity to deliver a realistic proposal. At the end of the day Government will ultimately be giving the go ahead.

I think the main problem with inter-city rail in Alberta is the car culture. Neither Edmonton or Calgary has the number of public transit users/commuters to make this needed.

Though if it is true HSR and 10 years from now Calgary and Edmonton's intra-city transit is improved it might actually work out...who knows.

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

I hate to say it but I think the grade crossings are an inevitable source of conflict either way. If they remain open, as soon as there's a major accident with loss of life there will be calls for speed reduction and grade separation. I can foresee emotions runnign high after such an event and the authorities giving into calls for a speed limit of say 100 km/h though any crossings. There are mitigation measures, however, such as barriers that physically stop outside intrusion but they're a lot more expensive. I think it would be worth it though.

Definitely. I was going to mention something about that. The first time TV images of a mangled brand new VIA train are shown after destroying an SUV with a family in it, questions will be asked why we built a fast railway with grade crossings. It's all but guaranteed this will happen eventually, and I bet it's being taken into consideration.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

I hate to say it but I think the grade crossings are an inevitable source of conflict either way. If they remain open, as soon as there's a major accident with loss of life there will be calls for speed reduction and grade separation. I can foresee emotions runnign high after such an event and the authorities giving into calls for a speed limit of say 100 km/h though any crossings. There are mitigation measures, however, such as barriers that physically stop outside intrusion but they're a lot more expensive. I think it would be worth it though.

Typically grade separation becomes a higher priority when there is a rail collision at a grade crossing. At the present time, one of the grade crossing in Barrhaven (Ottawa) is now being separated. When LRT comes to that part of the city, other grade crossings will be separated. One of those crossings was the site of the serious bus collision.

[lrt's friend]

There is a primary difference in why VIA is still relevant in Ontario while it is not in Alberta. Highway 401 congestion. It is really not cost efficient to widen Highway 401 for its entire length, nor does selective widening really reduce congestion for very long. This is why alternatives (HFR) are necessary. Rail service provides a real alternative to highway congestion.

This is also why a Banff rail service is being considered. National park congestion is not sustainable and is not tourist friendly.

Calgary-Edmonton rail service will be seriously considered as Highway 2 congestion becomes unpleasant for enough drivers OR as the public embraces HFR in Ontario and Quebec. I think that we don't need to wait for Highway 2 widening to 6 or 8 lanes as this will also be a very expensive project. After all, large sections of Highway 401 remain 4 lanes yet pressure for better rail service increases.

The interest in expanding LRT in both Calgary and Edmonton bodes well for an intercity rail link in the long-term. In the meantime, the best bang for the political buck in Alberta is to invest in LRT expansion.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

From La Presse :



Kinda disappointed in Montreal-Quebec. But 3 hrs to Ottawa and 4 hrs to Montreal, from Toronto is substantial. Especially if the frequencies are high and the fares are reasonable.

Ottawa-Montreal is bit disappointing as well. Though as I said a few days ago, the days of an Ottawa-Montreal drive in 2 hours flat are gone due to traffic volumes. For most people its 2h15 or 2h30 these days.

[GoTrans]

Originally Posted by Urban_Sky

Unfortunately for you and swimmer_spe, there don't seem to be that many people in Alberta that share (let alone: care about) your priorities...

And what are you basing your numbers on? I would prefer to at least have the results of an origin/destination survey. The problem is there is no real true data concerning rail ridership because there is no ridership. That alone does not mean there is no demand but the lack of accurate demand data is why I believe in starting limited service. Nothing ventured, nothing gained. I am not talking HSR or even HFR to begin with.