Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[someone123]

My impression is that from Quebec's perspective, influence over federal institutions and "compatibility" with French and Quebec culture is more important than bilingualism per se. Bilingualism was the "Trudeaupian" pan-Canadian compromise and perhaps an operational method to get federal institutions to work better, not an inherent major goal in Quebec, and a lot of people in Quebec are unilingual French speakers, not bilingual.

One aspect I don't have a good handle on is how Quebec has changed during the recent period when so many English-speaking Canadians have been drawn even more strongly into the American media bubble, and promote "Made in the USA" politics that don't make allowances for a Francophone minority because the US happens not to have that group in similar proportion. Canadians don't seem to be adopting the spirit of the politics and mapping on the more enlightened recent American view toward other languages and cultures like Spanish speakers from Latin America. I wonder if we are moving toward an absurd state where many Canadians will cheer on 8 different languages in public communications but not French.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by someone123

My impression is that from Quebec's perspective, influence over federal institutions and "compatibility" with French and Quebec culture is more important than bilingualism per se. Bilingualism was the "Trudeaupian" pan-Canadian compromise and perhaps an operational method to get federal institutions to work better, not an inherent major goal in Quebec, and a lot of people in Quebec are unilingual French speakers, not bilingual.
.

Correct. Trudeau thought (or may be wanted to impose the idea) that Quebecers would feel more at home in Canada if all of Canada were more bilingual from coast to coast.

But Quebecers don't care if signs at post offices in Vancouver say POST OFFICE - BUREAU DE POSTE.

What matters to them is for Quebec to remain francophone, and ideally that it become even moreso.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Acajack

What matters to them is for Quebec to remain francophone, and ideally that it become even moreso.

It is a sad situation because there are minority groups in a vulnerable position, and it seems like a lot of Canadians have hardened views toward them because of Quebec. Yet Quebec does not advocate for them, nor do I think that would make much sense, since Quebec is a province with a defined territory, not a pan-Canadian French lobbying entity.

Another perspective I run into is the view that French is a kind of tradition being used instead of English only due to aesthetics or stubbornness (a descendant of the "speak English, dammit!" view?). This is the case for some languages like say Gaelic being re-learned in some towns where everybody speaks English (not necessarily anything wrong with that). It's not true of French throughout Canada. There are millions of people who were born in Canada and do not speak English.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by someone123

One aspect I don't have a good handle on is how Quebec has changed during the recent period when so many English-speaking Canadians have been drawn even more strongly into the American media bubble, and promote "Made in the USA" politics that don't make allowances for a Francophone minority because the US happens not to have that group in similar proportion. Canadians don't seem to be adopting the spirit of the politics and mapping on the more enlightened recent American view toward other languages and cultures like Spanish speakers from Latin America. I wonder if we are moving toward an absurd state where many Canadians will cheer on 8 different languages in public communications but not French.

Yes, there are some signs of an emerging mindset of "extreme openness to all languages and cultures, except Quebec/French".

Not sure how widespread it will ultimately become, but certainly there is a feeling among many ROCers that they've already done more than enough on this front, and that it's time to share the "love" (sic) with others.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by someone123

It is a sad situation because there are minority groups in a vulnerable position, and it seems like a lot of Canadians have hardened views toward them because of Quebec. Yet Quebec does not advocate for them, nor do I think that would make much sense, since Quebec is a province with a defined territory, not a pan-Canadian French lobbying entity.

Another perspective I run into is the view that French is a kind of tradition being used instead of English only due to aesthetics or stubbornness (a descendant of the "speak English, dammit!" view?). This is the case for some languages like say Gaelic being re-learned in some towns where everybody speaks English (not necessarily anything wrong with that). It's not true of French throughout Canada. There are millions of people who were born in Canada and do not speak English.

There is a huge practical aspect to language that the anti-bilinguals often overlook.

How can federal agencies manage environmental assessments if they don't have the institutional ability to read documents in French from municipalities (there are 3,000 of them in Quebec) or the second-biggest province in the country?

How can federal agencies manage the financial sector without the ability to deal with stuff in French from Desjardins or Banque Nationale, two of the biggest institutions in the country?

How can the feds process my tax return without knowledge of French when all of my statements, receipts and other materials are in French?

Of course, countries like Switzerland get around these challenges by devolving most of this stuff to sub-national entities that only operate in one language. But Canadians, so it seems, have never wanted that.

[p_xavier]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

Something just occurred to me.
If you order a MacChicken at the McD in Edmundston in French, do you say “MacPoulet” or “MacChicken”?

Edit: Oh wait, KFC’s still PFK in Edmundston, so I guess it’s MacPoulet chez McDonald?
https://goo.gl/maps/ET9GH8QrSuMDc4XN9

Yes it's MacPoulet. As someone who's from there, Edmundston is mostly an extension of Québec branding (also because it's the end of the distribution chains from Québec too). It's still one of the most French speaking town in Canada. Shoppers Drug Mart was not translated but Sobey's was rebranded to IGA a decade ago. It was one of the few places to have a Vidéotron store instead of a Rogers store.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by Acajack

While technically true, administrative bilingualism is reliant on an appreciable level of personal bilingualism. Without which it cannot function.

And perhaps axiomatically, if more Canadian anglophones had better personal knowledge of French, official administrative bilingualism wouldn't be as much of an issue.

The reality, however, is that the vast majority do not have such knowledge and, in all likelihood, never will.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

The reality, however, is that the vast majority do not have such knowledge and, in all likelihood, never will.

Devolve more stuff to Quebec and then all of those unilingual ROCers (or who are bilingual in English-Inuktitut, English-Punjabi or English-Cantonese, or trilingual in English-Russian-Polish or quadrilingual in English-Dutch-German-Swedish) all become instantly eligible for cushy federal government jobs.

Are you up for it?

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Devolve more stuff to Quebec and then all of those unilingual ROCers (or who are bilingual in English-Inuktitut, English-Punjabi or English-Cantonese, or trilingual in English-Russian-Polish or quadrilingual in English-Dutch-German-Swedish) all become instantly eligible for cushy federal government jobs.

Are you up for it?

Not sure. They have asymmetric quasi-federalism in the UK with Scotland getting a lot of devolved powers, and they still want to separate.

And NB will still be stuck with rigid, dogmatic and stultifying pan-provincial bilingualism.

[lio45]

I'm committing to giving the Federal Liberals my vote if/when they appoint a GG who is an unilingual francophone. (Not kidding, I'll do it.)

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by lio45

I'm committing to giving the Federal Liberals my vote if/when they appoint a GG who is an unilingual francophone. (Not kidding, I'll do it.)

So we'll talk again in five years?

[Marshsparrow]

Our last two GGs now being from QC - up until this last appointment, I thought there was a tradition of alternating between anglophone and francophone GGs...?

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Marshsparrow

Our last two GGs now being from QC - up until this last appointment, I thought there was a tradition of alternating between anglophone and francophone GGs...?

Now that visible minorities and aboriginal Canadians are in the mix, almost anything goes (unless you are a visible minority female who once worked for the CBC, then you are an absolute shoe-in for the position. This includes the current GG designate).

[lio45]

Originally Posted by Marshsparrow

Our last two GGs now being from QC

There's a difference between "being from Quebec" and being a Québécois (the latter is what matters for political appointments).

If you appoint someone like Mary Simon or Stubbornly Unilingual WASP John Bull from Westmount, you aren't checking the same box as if you were actually appointing "someone from Quebec" to a given position.

[thewave46]

Originally Posted by lio45

I'm committing to giving the Federal Liberals my vote if/when they appoint a GG who is an unilingual francophone. (Not kidding, I'll do it.)

Actually, I'm weirdly down for this idea. I'd imagine the list of candidates would be tiny for those who want to be GG and who are unilingual francophones though. Obviously I've no idea who to fill this position, but you might know people.

Le plante en pot honorable, indeed.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by lio45

I'm committing to giving the Federal Liberals my vote if/when they appoint a GG who is an unilingual francophone. (Not kidding, I'll do it.)

The modal perspective in Canada might be something like this:

- (It is unthinkingly assumed that the GG will be able to communicate in English, in the same we assume any government official can talk.)
- French language ability is a "nice to have" or "box to tick" of no practical use. It is either an educational credential or an extra thing you are born with.
- "Being French" is an identity category.
- Why do people in Quebec have to make such a huge deal out of these extra snowflake things that they want or demand that appointees always be from their identity group?

I don't think the scenario of a GG giving a dedication speech exclusively in French in Weyburn SK is thought about. Or the scenario where the GG has zero English familiarity but tries to read an English speech and is unintelligible.

[thewave46]

Originally Posted by Marshsparrow

Our last two GGs now being from QC - up until this last appointment, I thought there was a tradition of alternating between anglophone and francophone GGs...?

They've generally been able to communicate in both languages, even if their mother tongue was English/French.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by lio45

There's a difference between "being from Quebec" and being a Québécois (the latter is what matters for political appointments).

If you appoint someone like Mary Simon or Stubbornly Unilingual WASP John Bull from Westmount, you aren't checking the same box as if you were actually appointing "someone from Quebec" to a given position.

Or at an absolute minimum, Marshsparrow's assumption that "someone from Quebec" = "a francophone" is totally off-base.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by someone123

The modal perspective in Canada might be something like this:

- (It is unthinkingly assumed that the GG will be able to communicate in English, in the same we assume any government official can talk.)
- French language ability is a "nice to have" or "box to tick" of no practical use. It is either an educational credential or an extra thing you are born with.
- "Being French" is an identity category.
- Why do people in Quebec have to make such a huge deal out of these extra snowflake things that they want or demand that appointees always be from their identity group?

I don't think the scenario of a GG giving a dedication speech exclusively in French in Weyburn SK is thought about. Or the scenario where the GG has zero English familiarity but tries to read an English speech and is unintelligible.

Similarly, when people complain about bilingualism requirements shutting unilingual Canadians out from government jobs, it's not Jean-Guy in Rivière-du-Loup or Dieudonné in Montréal-Nord they are concerned about.

[Marshsparrow]

Is the GG tradition anglophone / francophone rotation or ROC / Quebec rotation?