Great Lakes Cities

[Docere]

Originally Posted by Doady

Toronto is young and suburban even by North American standards, even compared to other Great Lakes cities. People often compare Toronto to Chicago, but look at those population numbers from 1930, Toronto is actually more on the level of Cleveland and Milwaukee. Most of Toronto's growth happened in the post-war era, but it seems older and bigger and more urban than it actually is because of continued investment in public transit, especially in its suburbs.

Less suburbanites driving downtown, less demand for parking space downtown, that not only allowed Toronto to preserve what little inner city and downtown it had, but also allowed it to continue to develop and build upon that. TTC had over 1 billion unlinked trips in 2019, GO 79 million, MiWay 57 million, York Region Transit 22 million. Compare that to 27 million for Milwaukee CTS and 33 million for Cleveland RTA. Suburbanization is only a problem for the outskirts of cities, it is a problem for centres of cities as well. If a city has the ridership level of a suburb, it is hard to think about urbanization and building a downtown.

How are you defining "suburban"? Built after 1945? Percentage of metropolitan area living in the suburbs? Do a higher percentage of people in the Toronto area live in "suburban" environments than people in Detroit or Minneapolis?

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by Docere

Big Irish immigration in the mid-19th century. Pretty much fully melted into the mainstream today.... they don't really stand out anymore.

i mean, yeah, "irish" is pretty damn mainstream generic in most US cities as well these days too.

but does toronto not have those legions of "irish" people with their irish flag or shamrock tattoo on their shoulders, wearing their nortre dame baseball caps, who never miss an opportunity to mention how irish they are?

[Docere]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

how about the irish in toronto?

they're typically the #2 or #3 euro-ancestry in most great lakes cities i believe.

Irish is #2 among European ancestry groups (behind English, being Canada and all).

Toronto CMA

English 732,555
Irish 544,380
Scottish 543,760
Italian 484,365
German 271,815
French 248,150
Polish 237,245
Portuguese 210,425

[Docere]

I'd say the most visible white ethnic groups in Toronto are Italians, Jews and Portuguese.

[MonkeyRonin]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

how about the irish in toronto?

they're typically the #2 or #3 euro-ancestry in most great lakes cities i believe.

Toronto was basically a small town until the potato famine, when tens of thousands of Irish flooded into the city. The population was like >90% Irish by the mid-1800s, with a mix of Protestants and Catholics; who in turn brought over their sectarian conflicts so much so that the city was known as the "Belfast of Canada".

As mentioned above, Irish is still the second most common European ancestry today.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by MonkeyRonin

a mix of Protestants and Catholics; who in turn brought over their sectarian conflicts so much so that the city was known as the "Belfast of Canada".

that's interesting.

i'm sure chicago probably received some protestant irish immigrants as well, but man do you never hear anything about them.

in chicago (and i'm pretty sure in the other US great lakes cities too), "irish" is very strongly associated with "catholic", and by extenesion, "notre dame".

[Razor]

Just a little fact that I read somewhere..Montreal also received a lot of Irish Immigrants during that famine, and in a lot of cases orphaned children were adopted by Quebec people in general, and to keep their lineage going the adoptive French speaking parents. much to their credit, kept their Irish surnames names which I thought was pretty cool.
Now speaking of Montreal, is it Great Lakes city, Eastern seaboard, or is it in a grey zone and can be either?

[jd3189]

^^^ Those from MTL can correct me, but I got the vibe that it’s more of an Eastern Seaboard city. The St. Lawrence River gives it direct access to the Atlantic and it has a lot of similarities in built form to NYC, Boston, and Philly. However, it’s technically just central Canada.

[Centropolis]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

that's interesting.

i'm sure chicago probably received some protestant irish immigrants as well, but man do you never hear anything about them.

in chicago (and i'm pretty sure in the other US great lakes cities too), "irish" is very strongly associated with "catholic", and by extenesion, "notre dame".

the wave of protestants from ireland and germany is much earlier in the united states. i mean these are the people that fought the revolutionary war and pushed through the midland. they didnt get off the train in chicago coming from ireland they got off the train coming from kentucky.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by Centropolis

they didnt get off the train in chicago coming from ireland they got off the train coming from kentucky.

right, but they never seemed to really wear the "irish" mantle in chicago (which had an absurd amount of late 19th century irish catholic immigration).

early 20th century folks from kentucky (and there abouts) all got lumped together as "appalachians" or, less favorably, "hillbillies".

[Centropolis]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

right, but they never seemed to really wear the "irish" mantle in chicago (which had an absurd amount of late 19th century irish catholic immigration).

folks from kentucky (and there abouts) all got lumped together as "appalachians" or, less favorably, "hill billies".

right, they’d already been melted down in the american crucible

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by Razor

Now speaking of Montreal, is it Great Lakes city, Eastern seaboard, or is it in a grey zone and can be either?

from my outsider perspective, montreal is "Quebec", which is its own french entity distinct from "eastern seaboard" or "great lakes" or anything else.

but if you have to shoe-horn it into one of these more US-centric groupings, it fits better with "eastern seaboard", as it's not only a bonafide seaport, but it's closest relationship with a major US city is with boston.

[Docere]

Irish ethnic identity is Catholic, I think. But obviously there are a lot of people of Protestant heritage who list "Irish" as one of their ancestries. A majority of Americans of Irish ancestry are Protestant (though obviously a regional variation).

https://www.irishcentral.com/news/irish-...jor,at%20the%20University%20of%20Chicago.

And given the large number of Irish in Ontario, a lot made their way into the US as well. But the Protestant ones didn't become "Irish Americans."

[Docere]

The "Rush Limbaugh" of the 1930s, Father Coughlin, was a Canadian-born Irish Catholic. Born in Hamilton and attended university in Toronto. Then moved to Detroit. He might actually be the most famous native of Hamilton.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Coughlin

[Docere]

Walt Disney was born in Chicago to a Canadian father of Irish Protestant heritage and grew up in Missouri. I don't think people see him as an "Irish American."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walt_Disney

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by Docere

Irish ethnic identity is Catholic, I think. But obviously there are a lot of people of Protestant heritage who list "Irish" as one of their ancestries. A majority of Americans of Irish ancestry are Protestant (though obviously a regional variation).

https://www.irishcentral.com/news/irish-...jor,at%20the%20University%20of%20Chicago.

that's kinda wild and eye-opening.

and so completely out of step with my perceptions growing up and living in chicago, and having significant irish catholic chicago ancestry.

"irish protestants" are invisible around here by comparison.

[Docere]

Henry Ford was of Irish Protestant and Belgian heritage. Don't think Irish Americans claim him.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Ford

He could have been the Donald Trump of his day if he had run for office. Thankfully he never did.

[Centropolis]

Originally Posted by Docere

The "Rush Limbaugh" of the 1930s, Father Coughlin, was a Canadian-born Irish Catholic. Born in Hamilton and attended university in Toronto. Then moved to Detroit. He might actually be the most famous native of Hamilton.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Coughlin

speaking of rush limbaugh…midland protestant german family straight down the ohio river chute to the end.

[Docere]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

that's kinda wild and eye-opening.

and so completely out of step with my perceptions growing up and living in chicago, and having significant irish catholic chicago ancestry.

"irish protestants" are invisible around here by comparison.

There's obviously a regional variation. I remember reading somewhere that about half of Irish Catholics lived in the Northeast, while half of Irish Protestants lived in the South.

[Docere]

Barack Obama is like 1/16 Irish or something...and his Irish immigrant ancestor was Protestant.

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/why-o...lp-shatter-irish-american-myths-1.913550