Great Lakes Cities

[Crawford]

Yes. White suburban women in the Midwest seem to be converging on a nasaly regional accent. Like "Saaturday."

MI's Governor Whitmer is an exaggerated example.

[pj3000]

Originally Posted by Centropolis

i’m not sure that i can tell the difference between that michigan accent and the st. louis area accent anymore. its just all about the nasal, especially suburban women for some reason? i swear theres just a merged pan-midwest (or pan great lakes plus minneapolis/stl) suburban mom accent now.

I'm not an expert in various midwestern accents by any means, but I think I could discern St. Louis from Michigan... this only based on limited experience. I have a good friend who married a St. Louis girl (western suburbs), and he lives there now. Her and her family's accent is there, but rather subtle. Had a college friend from Florissant who didn't have much of a perceivable accent at all. Have a buddy here in Pittsburgh from St. Louis proper... somewhat noticeable with certain words. But overall, not too strong of an accent to me. And then I hear Michiganders... one of my college roommates from Detroit, a buddy I worked with years ago from Lansing, my cousin's wife's family from Detroit, my mother's friend from Saginaw... I almost can't stand the nasally sounds. That droning nose!

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by The North One

I thought the French deemed Chicago uninhabitable and never colonized it, due to it being unfarmable swamp. Whatever settlement there must have been extremely tiny.

the only thing that i'm aware of the early french explorers "deeming" about the chicago area was noting the presence of Mud Lake and recognizing its importance for allowing portage-less passage between the great lakes and mississippi river watersheds during periods of high water.

but yes, the pre-yankee french settlement here was extremely small. we're talking tiny and tenuous frontier village kinda stuff; certainly nothing like a more established detroit with multiple hundreds of people at the time..

which is why it was so utterly steam-rolled by the yankee invasion in the early 19th century, starting with the establishment of U.S. Fort Dearborn in 1803.



here's a pretty good primer on the 18th century french history of the chicago area:

https://earlychicago.com/essays_3/

so the french were here very early on in the 18th century, but they were WAY too small in numbers to have much impact on chicago's overall cultural arc in the following centuries.



side bar: i grew up in suburban Wilmette, named for French/Metis fur trader Antoine Ouilmette, who was part of that very small early french world in chicago. after the fort dearborn evacuation/massacre in the war of 1812, he was the lone "white" settler in the area for a time (given his assumed Metis background, he was friendly with the indigenous Potawatomi, and thus his life was spared). he himself eventually decided to leave the area with his family as the yankees took over en masse in the 1820s.

[subterranean]

I moved to the Northwest and I can spot a Michigan accent from about 3 miles away. Thayt Thayre is whyyyy.

*Strangely, it's not everyone. I have aunts and uncles who have strongggg Michigan accents, but my parents don't. I can't figure out the rhyme or reason to it. I thought maybe it was socioeconomic, but then you'll occasionally hear even wealthy people with it. Maybe new money.

[edale]

Originally Posted by pj3000

I'm not an expert in various midwestern accents by any means, but I think I could discern St. Louis from Michigan... this only based on limited experience. I have a good friend who married a St. Louis girl (western suburbs), and he lives there now. Her and her family's accent is there, but rather subtle. Had a college friend from Florissant who didn't have much of a perceivable accent at all. Have a buddy here in Pittsburgh from St. Louis proper... somewhat noticeable with certain words. But overall, not too strong of an accent to me. And then I hear Michiganders... one of my college roommates from Detroit, a buddy I worked with years ago from Lansing, my cousin's wife's family from Detroit, my mother's friend from Saginaw... I almost can't stand the nasally sounds. That droning nose!

My freshman year roommate in college was a kid from St. Louis (city), and he would often talk about how St. Louis is the standard American English, and essentially without any accent. The number of times he'd say "Bob Costas is from St. Louis!" to prove that his way of pronouncing things was correct. We had a lot of kids on our dorm floor from Boston, NY/NJ, Philly, couple from Pittsburgh and Cleveland...so lots of accents. The topic came up too much tbh.

So I'm surprised to hear of this St. Louis extension of the Great Lakes accent. Michigan and Cleveland (especially east side of Cle) have the same accent to me. My immediate family likes to imitate one of my aunts in metro Detroit because of her thick accent. We were with her once going to my uncle's house, and she warned us that he had a lot of cats-- "Ohh those keeeey-yaaaats. Soh many keeey-yaaatsss..."

[Razor]

I personally can't differentiate between a Michigan or Western NY accent..I've interacted with people from both areas sure, but not enough to tell the difference.You can almost throw in Western Penn in there too. Certain nuances like regional accents are harder to pick up if you aren't from there. iI's like the Ottawa valley rural accent, or the Northern ON accent..It's there, but you have to be from Ontario I suppose..The Newfoundland bayman accent is just as apparent as The New England or NYC accent though. the few Californians that I interacted with all sounded neutral to me..Ditto for the one person I talke to who was from Seattle..Maybe both were anomalies, so who knows. Maybe it was a coincidence, but I found that the few anglo Montrealers who I spoke with had really good English, and were very well spoken ,and their accent also sounded neutral to me.

[IrishIllini]

A late add, but if Canada were a part of the US, the concept of the Midwest would probably be completely different, if it existed at all. The Great Lakes region is already a recognized part of the country, but in a merged US-CA, I doubt Nebraska or Kansas would be considered to exist in the same region as Illinois, Michigan, etc.

Maybe the Midsouth would be a more defined region and include parts of IL and IN.

[pj3000]

Originally Posted by Razor

I personally can't differentiate between a Michigan or Western NY accent..I've interacted with people from both areas sure, but not enough to tell the difference.You can almost throw in Western Penn in there too.

Wait, what? I thought we've already been through this, and that it's pretty well established. Even the northern accent maps posted display it.

Western PA accents are really NOTHING like those of western/central NY, and certainly not like those in Michigan. It is very, very easy to discern the difference.

[Crawford]

I'd add that there are at least two MI accents.

Western/Northern MI have an Upper Midwest accent, with shades of Minnesota and Wisconsin. Metro Detroit sounds like Cleveland.

Governor Whitmer has the Western/Northern MI accent; the Fargo Lite, not the Metro Detroit accent.

And why are Midwest accents more pronounced with women? I don't get this. Like 90% of the native-born white Michigan women I know have discernable nasaly accents, while the share with men is much lower.

[JManc]

Originally Posted by Crawford

I'd add that there are at least two MI accents.

Western/Northern MI have an Upper Midwest accent, with shades of Minnesota and Wisconsin. Metro Detroit sounds like Cleveland.

Governor Whitmer has the Western/Northern MI accent; the Fargo Lite, not the Metro Detroit accent.

And why are Midwest accents more pronounced with women? I don't get this. Like 90% of the native-born white Michigan women I know have discernable nasaly accents, while the share with men is much lower.

Ditto for CNY. My aunt, stepmother and sisters in law are very nasally while the guys in my family sound more like they're from downstate.

[wg_flamip]

Originally Posted by Crawford

And why are Midwest accents more pronounced with women? I don't get this. Like 90% of the native-born white Michigan women I know have discernable nasaly accents, while the share with men is much lower.

There's actually a really interesting phenomenon at work here called the Gender Paradox, which isn't very well understood yet. Essentially, linguists working mostly in Europe and North America have observed that women are more likely to adopt and enforce prescribed/prestige language while simultaneously being much more flexible when it comes to innovation (so long as it's not otherwise proscribed).

From the linked article:

The third principle is as follows: "In linguistic change from below, women use higher frequencies of innovative forms than men do."

These changes, which generally occur below the level of social consciousness, are "the primary form of linguistic change that operates within the system." In these cases, women are the initiators and leaders of changes in progress.

The Northern Cities Shift (NCS) offers a clear example of women leading change from below. For instance, the Atlas of North American English provides data on the regression analysis of 56 speakers in the Inland North, in which the most significant factor regarding sound change advancement is gender, making women the leading innovators.

[craigs]

More than once I've noticed, on my trips back to New England, that it's the women who have the stronger regional accents.

[Razor]

Originally Posted by pj3000

Wait, what? I thought we've already been through this, and that it's pretty well established. Even the northern accent maps posted display it.

Western PA accents are really NOTHING like those of western/central NY, and certainly not like those in Michigan. It is very, very easy to discern the difference.

" From my perspective".I just sounds Northern U.S to me..It's like you trying to pick out some of our regional accents. Probably just all sounds hoser Canuck to you ..granted, if I spent a few days in upstate NY- then Michigan, and focused on the dialect, then maybe I would notice it more. On the spot, I can't tell Ohio from Michigan apart either..If you personally were travelling, and I happened onto you and we made small talk, I would just be able to tell that you were American and not from Fargo, the South, New jersey, or New England. I'm sure Australians also have their own regional dialects that ONLY they would be able to tell apart as well.

[Docere]

Arguably the most famous person from the Pittsburgh area:

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/watch-fred-rogers-heart-warming-final-message-grownup-fans

Doesn't sound like he's from Buffalo or Detroit.

[Razor]

Originally Posted by Docere

Arguably the most famous person from the Pittsburgh area:

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/watch-fred-rogers-heart-warming-final-message-grownup-fans

Doesn't sound like he's from Buffalo or Detroit.

Okay, I can hear an accent there, but it's really subtle and more neutral to me than not. I do hear a bit of a slant leaning to Southern U.S though. Just to my ears. Not much, but it is there. Like a transition almost.

[pj3000]

Originally Posted by Razor

I just sounds Northern U.S to me..It's like you trying to pick out some of our regional accents. Probably just all sounds hoser Canuck to you ..granted, if I spent a few days in upstate NY- then Michigan, and focused on the dialect, then maybe I would notice it more. On the spot, I can't tell Ohio from Michigan apart either..If you personally were travelling, and I happened onto you and we made small talk, I would just be able to tell that you were American and not from the South, New jersey, or New England

Yeah, I can fully understand not being able to accurately discern a central/western NY accent from one in northern Ohio or Michigan.

But western PA (and PA in general) is an entirely different sound family. It's closer to what you hear in Philly/eastern PA/Maryland with some Appalachian thrown in. The northern half of PA generally sounds rather flat, with the strong, distinctive southern half from Philly and Pittsburgh counteracting any upstate NY tone.

[pj3000]

Originally Posted by Razor

Okay, I can hear an accent there, but it's really subtle and more neutral to me than not. I do hear a bit of a slant leaning to Southern U.S though. Just to my ears. Not much, but it is there. Like a transition almost.

The Philly accent is good. The Pitts burgh one is only so-so.

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[edale]

Most of the older members of my dad's side of the family have super thick Pittsburgh accents. Downtown = dawn-tawn. Giant Eagle (supermarket chain) = Jahnt Eggle. Steelers = Stillers. I feel like PGH also has its own jargon in a way that few other places do. Yinz instead of yall or you guys is the obvious one, but I noticed lots of little Pittsburghisms in my time there. My uncle famously referred to priests as 'collars'...but not sure if that was just a him thing or a regional thing lol.

[JvcNYC]

On a much more macro scale, most non native English speakers can't discern such accent subtleties. I'm a native Western New Yorker, but on a trip a few years ago to Morocco we met some local vendors who were less than fond of the U.S. President and then administration. Understanding 100% where they were coming from and hoping to still get a good deal, we told them we were Canadian. Few who are not from North America could tell the difference between an American or Canadian based on an accent.

[Crawford]

But a Western NYer wouldn't sound much different from a stereotypical Canadian. Buffalo doesn't sound much different from Hamilton.

If you were from Rhode Island, or Staten Island, or Alabama, or West Virginia, I bet many could tell.