DENVER | Main Development Thread #7

[Ndj]

Denver's Platte river trail has needed widening for a while now. Dedicated biking/walking paths would be awesome.

[bunt_q]

Originally Posted by mojiferous

For someone who has been vocal about making sure neighborhoods don't change and that the "original residents" stay put, I'd have thought you would be fighting for the people who have been living in RiNO the longest: the homeless. They were there long before the apartments, before the restaurants and galleries, before Rhinoceropolis and warehouse parties.

I had relatives who worked at DriveTrain in the early 80s when it was on Brighton and there is no reason to go back. Brighton was dirty and mostly abandoned. Homeless people would burn trash to keep warm like 30s hobos. A good friend worked in Floyd's corporate offices in the old Denargo Market in the late 90s and there is no reason to go back. It was even more abandoned and dirtier and morphed into something closer to the Carter from New Jack City. I know the people who ran (run...) Rhinoceropolis and had seen so many shows there (and played a few) in the 2000s and there is still little reason to go back. It was cheap and artists could thrive, but it wasn't a neighborhood - there were no restaurants or grocery stores, taxis refused to come after 10pm, and anything not locked down was stolen or peed on.

The only thing that was better then was the price of rent. Yes, the apartments are boring and they're too expensive for a lot of people that need housing close to the city. And you probably think they're too high and block the sunlight or your mountain views or something. BUT, it was never "better" on Brighton, and it sure is a lot more vibrant now than it ever was.

And this all comes down to the fact that people want to go back to this mythical time in Denver when it was both cheap AND desirable. But here's the thing: it never was both. People want $200 rents and $30,000 houses in east Denver but don't want to deal with the Rollin 30s (speaking of which, we won't even go into the Park Hill golf course and the Holly shopping center, which they burnt down). They want the old days along 32nd and Zuni and South Santa Fe but don't want to think about the color of their shirt and shoes every time they leave the house. They want Globeville prices from before the Superfund cleanup.


Old Denver was not a great place, but people forget that or don't know because they've been here for less than 20 years. Because they don't know they assume the only change in these neighborhoods has been new construction and higher prices, so they want things to go back to how they were before. To not change. To be cheap and coooool again. But that Denver never was.

Amen.

Or the dead body the police left out laying out on the sidewalk in the hot sun all day... in front of a house that I could barely afford to live in today. But $1200 rent divided between 5 people in a giant house walkable to downtown sure was nice...

[RyanD]

Originally Posted by SirLucasTheGreat

RiNo is heating up. As I mentioned earlier today, Carmel looks to be starting their 12-story project at 3900 Brighton. New RiNo projects under construction/preparing for construction:

3930 Blake - 16 stories
3900 Brighton - 12 stories
Foundry Line - 16 stories
The Current - 12 stories
Novel RiNo - 12 stories
Residences at RiNo - 12 stories

Bless. Looks like I got to get back out there


Anyways, here are some tasty snacks for:

Novel RiNo:



FoundryLine:



The Current:

[SirLucasTheGreat]

Thanks, Ryan! Those shots look incredible. Does anybody know whether Watershed, T3 by Hines, or WTC are moving forward? Two 12-story towers near the RiNo promenade should start at the beginning of 2022 for the Hurley Place project.

[twister244]

Originally Posted by mojiferous

The only thing that was better then was the price of rent. Yes, the apartments are boring and they're too expensive for a lot of people that need housing close to the city. And you probably think they're too high and block the sunlight or your mountain views or something. BUT, it was never "better" on Brighton, and it sure is a lot more vibrant now than it ever was.

And this all comes down to the fact that people want to go back to this mythical time in Denver when it was both cheap AND desirable. But here's the thing: it never was both. People want $200 rents and $30,000 houses in east Denver but don't want to deal with the Rollin 30s (speaking of which, we won't even go into the Park Hill golf course and the Holly shopping center, which they burnt down). They want the old days along 32nd and Zuni and South Santa Fe but don't want to think about the color of their shirt and shoes every time they leave the house. They want Globeville prices from before the Superfund cleanup.


Old Denver was not a great place, but people forget that or don't know because they've been here for less than 20 years. Because they don't know they assume the only change in these neighborhoods has been new construction and higher prices, so they want things to go back to how they were before. To not change. To be cheap and coooool again. But that Denver never was.

When it comes to rent, I don't think Denver has gotten that out of hand. There was a big spike in the mid 2010s, but things cooled off over the last couple of years. House prices though.... That's another story. I don't expect Denver to be affordable in the sense that you find houses for under $200k, but what's happened to Denver is just not sustainable. When I put a price cap of $350k in Denver on Redfin, there's only 187 properties listed. Do the same exercise for Chicago and you find almost 6,000 properties.

Yes, there is a national upwards trend in the housing market, but Denver is way out there in terms of being too expensive. Unfortunately, I don't see an easy fix for this in the future. Lakewood implementing their housing cap was not just bad for them, it was bad for Denver because now Denver will have to try to accommodate that growth that Lakewood have otherwise have swallowed up.

[The Dirt]

Originally Posted by mojiferous

All the words

Nostalgia is a hell of a drug. As long as the past was this mythical, beautiful place where bad things didn't happen, you get free license to hate everything new. It's like boomer hipsterism.

[RyanD]

Originally Posted by twister244

When it comes to rent, I don't think Denver has gotten that out of hand. There was a big spike in the mid 2010s, but things cooled off over the last couple of years. House prices though.... That's another story. I don't expect Denver to be affordable in the sense that you find houses for under $200k, but what's happened to Denver is just not sustainable. When I put a price cap of $350k in Denver on Redfin, there's only 187 properties listed. Do the same exercise for Chicago and you find almost 6,000 properties.

Yes, there is a national upwards trend in the housing market, but Denver is way out there in terms of being too expensive. Unfortunately, I don't see an easy fix for this in the future. Lakewood implementing their housing cap was not just bad for them, it was bad for Denver because now Denver will have to try to accommodate that growth that Lakewood have otherwise have swallowed up.

I think a lot of it is supply, no? We needed like 10 Spire's U/C yesterday. Chicago is so affordable because they have a crap ton of supply.

[EngiNerd]

Originally Posted by RyanD

I think a lot of it is supply, no? We needed like 10 Spire's U/C yesterday. Chicago is so affordable because they have a crap ton of supply.

....and negative population growth. That's a surefire way to increase affordability is to have a glut because more people are leaving or dying in your city than are entering or being born.

[Robert.hampton]

Originally Posted by RyanD

Chicago is so affordable because they have a crap ton of supply.

Also it isn't THAT affordable. Your payment on a $300k property in Chicago is roughly the same as a $400k property in Denver thx to property taxes.

[TakeFive]

Source

Originally Posted by RyanD

Novel RiNo:

What was the last new project that covered this much dirt?
(And thanks Ryan for sharing)

Originally Posted by bulldurhamer

...in addition to the homeless campers, making walking completely undesirable.

So you're saying that 'campers' were among the early pioneers and have "squatting rights?"

BTW, your post about 3930 Blake Street was well done. I wasn't familiar with Jon Ratner - interesting backstory.

-----------------------

Source

It's not often you find a post this thought provoking. Other than adding a dot or two I'm inclined to agree and brevity is its own quality after all.

Originally Posted by coolmandan03

..

[mr1138]

Originally Posted by EngiNerd

....and negative population growth. That's a surefire way to increase affordability is to have a glut because more people are leaving or dying in your city than are entering or being born.

Sometimes I am really left wondering if this is most of what there is to it. Not to say all the very valid supply and demand arguments against anti-growth policies aren't also true. But a growing city may simply experience growing pains. It wouldn't be in the best interest of the real estate market to flood the market with so much supply that prices actually go down (even if this is what buyers/renters may want). It may be more realistic to let inflation and cost of living changes to catch up to current real estate prices over time - which could realistically take generations. Chicago could be an excellent example of this - a mature city that is no longer experiencing massive growth pressure can offer an urban lifestyle with a cheaper cost of living. Plus it already has pretty good mass transit, world class cultural facilities, and interesting neighborhoods that aren't constantly under construction.

It's too bad for just about anyone alive in Denver today if this is true. But perhaps it makes an argument to strike while the iron is hot and build the kind of dense, hopefully transit-supportive neighborhoods that can live on for the generations that come along later. And if one would rather live in a well established city and don't find the development process fun or interesting to live through, then move to a place like Chicago? Just sucks about the weather and lack of mountains though...

[bunt_q]

Well Chicago was a booming growing metropolis once. And managed to do it while remaining affordable to the working masses at the time. They did it by building tenement-ish multifamily housing by the gazillions of units. (The sort of housing that can still make people money, and never really was realistically going to undermine the value of my northside palace.) Alas, not really an approach we really welcome these days.

[mr1138]

Originally Posted by bunt_q

Well Chicago was a booming growing metropolis once. And managed to do it while remaining affordable to the working masses at the time. They did it by building tenement-ish multifamily housing by the gazillions of units. (The sort of housing that can still make people money, and never really was realistically going to undermine the value of my northside palace.) Alas, not really an approach we really welcome these days.

Definitely true - but wasn't most of that also before the housing reforms of the Progressive Era? It seems there must be some sort of middle ground between single-family zoning and worker housing where multiple families are forced to share a bathroom because it makes the robber barons richer.

Granted, Chicago's housing stock is much more of the detached-townhome variety as opposed to the kinds of places that Jacob Riis photographed, but perhaps this is what you mean by tenement-ish. I admittedly have not explored every neighborhood there.

[twister244]

Yeah, supply plays a major role. There are just so so so many neighborhoods here that development can spill over into. What's so interesting is if you just look at population growth numbers, you would think Chicago is in dire straights. But the reality is that the exodus in really bad neighborhoods just happens to still be outpacing growth in the nicer neighborhoods.

With Denver, there just aren't many places untouched anymore, so in order to accommodate the growth, there needs to be MASSIVE upzoning and construction to keep up.

[Agent Orange]

Originally Posted by bunt_q

Well Chicago was a booming growing metropolis once. And managed to do it while remaining affordable to the working masses at the time. They did it by building tenement-ish multifamily housing by the gazillions of units. (The sort of housing that can still make people money, and never really was realistically going to undermine the value of my northside palace.) Alas, not really an approach we really welcome these days.

It's not, but allowing 5-over-1 construction sans parking all over the city might be the modern day equivalent. My understanding is that's the cheapest per-unit style of construction. I'm all for fourplexes too which are relatively cheap given the wood frame construction and lack of elevator shaft, especially if the city preapproved certain designs so we can stamp them all over the place with no red tape. But we need to do more than that - those fourplexes are best suited for outer neighborhoods like East Colfax, Virginia Vale, Valverde. The more transit served, walkable, inner city neighborhoods should probably be targeted for 6 story multifamily all over the place. It'd be ugly for sure, but there are some things more important than aesthetics.

On the other hand, some of the residential buildings built under the "small lot exemption" (RIP, mostly) actually turned out pretty nice. We should be making it easier to build those. But nah, this is Denver.

[TakeFive]

Nope, not gonna apologize for my nostalgia

Originally Posted by mojiferous

Old Denver was not a great place, but people forget that or don't know because they've been here for less than 20 years. Because they don't know they assume the only change in these neighborhoods has been new construction and higher prices, so they want things to go back to how they were before. To not change. To be cheap and coooool again. But that Denver never was.

Well, I'd trade all my tomorrows for one single yesterday

Freedom's just another word for nothin' left to lose
Well, feelin' good was easy, Lord, when he sang the blues
And feelin' good was good enough for me
Good enough for me and my Bobby McGee, yeah
Kris Kristofferson

It's not a Zero Sum game. It's not like one period has to be bad for another period to be good. It's not as though one period was all warts and today it's all candy canes and kisses.

Yes, the old days had more grit and grime
Yes, they've pushed the grit and grime out of the city
It's called gentrification. For better and worse it is what it is.

There were good times in the Old Days; a lot of good memories.

Originally Posted by bunt_q

Well Chicago was a booming growing metropolis once. And managed to do it while remaining affordable to the working masses at the time. They did it by building tenement-ish multifamily housing by the gazillions of units. (The sort of housing that can still make people money, and never really was realistically going to undermine the value of my northside palace.) Alas, not really an approach we really welcome these days.

Not exactly parallel but Denver tore down it's tenement-ish stuff. They called it Urban Renewal.

• Video Link

Chicago's not the best comparison for many reasons. For one its population is 8.5 million. It's always been one of the original Big Cities.

[TakeFive]

Before we drive off a cliff, let's look over the hill and around the corner


Source

Couple of anecdotes:

https://www.bizjournals.com/phoenix/news...-post-pandemic-rules-on-remote-work.html

USAA has announced how its 36,000-plus employees in across the country will — or will not — return to the office.

USAA... has a major Arizona presence. The company has about 4,500 Valley employees... “We made the decision to sublease the Norterra West building in Phoenix to better reflect our workspace needs," Bradley Russell, spokesman for USAA said. USAA owns two buildings in Phoenix at 1 North Norterra Drive, totaling 991,054 square feet, according to CoStar data.

‘There is no going back to the status quo’: what the return to the office will look like this fall
Published Sat, Jun 26 By Abigail Johnson Hess - CNBC

High-profile companies like Microsoft, Apple and Google say they will be using a hybrid work model, where workers spend time working both from the office and from home, going forward. And business leaders don’t seem to think that shift is temporary. In the LaSalle survey, 77% of respondents said they believe their workforce will use a hybrid model through next year.

It's interesting how 'we' bemoan the high cost of single family homes and then immediately pivot to adding density. One has little to do with the other. Even more interesting is that a hybrid work model may be even more reason to live outside the city center.

Could Denver be sitting in the Catbird Seat?

Denver's CBD is not too small; it's not too big; it's just about right. Then the density quickly drops off to 4/5-stories to 17/18-stories for the most part. This may just be an ideal density going forward. Also, consider the amount of office space that has been built outside the CBD.

Speaking of nostalgia

There's a lot to be said for preserving historical structures and neighborhood character where it makes good sense. It's what makes Denver so cool and comfortable. You would lose more than you'd gain by destroying the best part of intercity neighborhoods.

The Most Beautiful Historic Neighborhoods in America
3/17/2016 By Jay Gentile - Thrillist

Nah, Denver isn't represented but Denver has plenty of history to be proud of and worth preserving.

[laniroj]

Originally Posted by TakeFive

Now that we know that buildings can and do collapse following the tragedy in Surfside, Florida (near Miami) how many more Humpty Dumpty buildings are out their would you guess?

Specific to Denver
any thoughts on what might be a 'collapsible' building? Any favorite picks for buildings you'd like to see imploded before they fall down?

I looked at a building 6 or 7 years ago, cast in place concrete from the 60's - massive structure with huge slab thickness. The slab between each 4-square of columns had literally sagged 2-3 inches. Took a quick and polite pass on that one. These structures exist, but most everything is pretty well built in this country. China on the other hand...at least what makes it to the news, deals with this regularly.

[laniroj]

Originally Posted by mojiferous

Old Denver was not a great place, but people forget that or don't know because they've been here for less than 20 years. Because they don't know they assume the only change in these neighborhoods has been new construction and higher prices, so they want things to go back to how they were before. To not change. To be cheap and coooool again. But that Denver never was.

A statesman in the making. I really wish all the newcomers would come to this realization that change didn't start happening at the moment they arrived...well said Moji

[laniroj]

Originally Posted by Agent Orange

It's not, but allowing 5-over-1 construction sans parking all over the city might be the modern day equivalent. My understanding is that's the cheapest per-unit style of construction. I'm all for fourplexes too which are relatively cheap given the wood frame construction and lack of elevator shaft, especially if the city preapproved certain designs so we can stamp them all over the place with no red tape. But we need to do more than that - those fourplexes are best suited for outer neighborhoods like East Colfax, Virginia Vale, Valverde. The more transit served, walkable, inner city neighborhoods should probably be targeted for 6 story multifamily all over the place. It'd be ugly for sure, but there are some things more important than aesthetics.

On the other hand, some of the residential buildings built under the "small lot exemption" (RIP, mostly) actually turned out pretty nice. We should be making it easier to build those. But nah, this is Denver.

Lots of agreement here except on the inner city hoods. Those could easily accomodate 3-3.5 story dense infill if parking minimums and onerous setbacks were relaxed/removed. That kind of infill is all over inner Chi-town and no reason Denver couldn't significantly solve it's housing issue with this type of density that only 1 story taller than your average mcmansion nowadays. The fire department could also consider relaxing it's ever growing safety standards and equipment accommodations, which would come at a de minimis life-safety cost, but I think the risk is worth it to help people find housing and live better lives.