Great Lakes Cities

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by Handro

ketchup on hot dogs?

But that's a crime against nature.

Originally Posted by Handro

Willis Tower vs Sears Tower?

Have you ever heard anyone call it Willis?

[Centropolis]

Originally Posted by pj3000

It was always weird as a kid growing up there, and visiting family in Buffalo and hearing that hard A sound. And then visiting Cleveland and hearing something a bit nasally, with a different way of saying the O sounds that's not like what you hear in upstate and western NY. And then visiting family in Pittsburgh and hearing something that seemed like it was from another planet. So, I guess Erie and surroundings is just a blend of all of that and linguists don't really know how to label it on these maps. There's really no discernible accent there... sometimes you can hear southern PA, sometimes NYS and NYC (strong Italian-American influence), sometimes OH/midwest (strong Polish-American influence).

i used to be amused by the contrast from the plains to st louis as the nasal would seem prominent in local furniture store ads or whatever. id spend many months away from st louis when i lived in kc and wandered the front range and that nasal would seem comically intense back in st louis.

[benp]

Originally Posted by pj3000

Even though Philly is obviously way smaller than NYC, western PA is still dominated by eastern PA politics, anchored by the Philadelphia area, in much the same way.



But it completely skips NW Pennsylvania, which is bizarre. If you hear it there, the person is very likely originally from New York state.



Good summation.





It never ceases to amaze and confuse me how the "northern vowel shift", aka nasally accent, skips over NW Pennsylvania and then touches down again in Ohio to spread to the midwest. My guess is that it is somehow drowned out by the influence of the accent mode one hears in both the Philadelphia area and Pittsburgh area (they are different, but share many commonalities, and are quite similar in many ways).

It was always weird as a kid growing up there, and visiting family in Buffalo and hearing that hard A sound. And then visiting Cleveland and hearing something a bit nasally, with a different way of saying the O sounds that's not like what you hear in upstate and western NY. And then visiting family in Pittsburgh and hearing something that seemed like it was from another planet. So, I guess Erie and surroundings is just a blend of all of that and linguists don't really know how to label it on these maps. There's really no discernible accent there... sometimes you can hear southern PA, sometimes NYS and NYC (strong Italian-American influence), sometimes OH/midwest (strong Polish-American influence).

I suspect that much of the pronunciation within the Great Lakes accent is also derived from the influence of French Canadian. Years ago I knew some people who had grown up on the St. Regis Mohawk Reservation which straddles the US-Canada border between NY-Ontario-Quebec and I recall that their accent to me sounded quite a lot to what I associated as the Buffalo East Side Polish accent. The more I think about and listen to the Great Lakes accent, I begin to hear where the French influence contributes a lot (dees, dem, and dose instead of these, them, and those). After all, the French were the first European settlers in the Great Lakes.

Back when I was growing up in Buffalo in the 60s and 70s, it was sometimes easy to differentiate which neighborhood people grew up in by their different accents. West Siders had a particular "tough guy" sounding accent, probably because of the predominant Italian and NYC influenced residents at the time. East Siders had more of a sing-song accent, probably because of the predominant Polish residents at the time. I also recall that a lot of people had what I call a "Deputy Dog" accent - can still hear it in the Lockport Outdoor Store commercial, but I am not sure where this originates from. You still can hear a variation in accents and pronunciation today, but it seems less localized to particular areas as people move around all over.

[pj3000]

Originally Posted by benp

I suspect that much of the pronunciation within the Great Lakes accent is also derived from the influence of French Canadian. Years ago I knew some people who had grown up on the St. Regis Mohawk Reservation which straddles the US-Canada border between NY-Ontario-Quebec and I recall that their accent to me sounded quite a lot to what I associated as the Buffalo East Side Polish accent. The more I think about and listen to the Great Lakes accent, I begin to hear where the French influence contributes a lot (dees, dem, and dose instead of these, them, and those). After all, the French were the first European settlers in the Great Lakes.

That's very interesting... I've never thought of the French influence. I've always noticed the similarities with "the Canadian accent" and the northern/Great Lakes accent, but never thought of the French Canadian part.

I hear the dees, dem, dose and associate it with Polish-Americans in the region, never thinking of the likely French background.

[eschaton]

Originally Posted by pj3000

It never ceases to amaze and confuse me how the "northern vowel shift", aka nasally accent, skips over NW Pennsylvania and then touches down again in Ohio to spread to the midwest. My guess is that it is somehow drowned out by the influence of the accent mode one hears in both the Philadelphia area and Pittsburgh area (they are different, but share many commonalities, and are quite similar in many ways).

This is exactly what happened. Erie had a "northern" accent a century ago, but influence from Pittsburgh media shifted it to the "midland" dialect zone. Sort of the inverse of what happened to the corridor of small cities running from Chicago to St. Louis.

IIRC, Erie is the only place in the country where there was a dialect shift to midland. A shift to northern is far more common.

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by benp

For whatever reason downstate people really have a stick up their a** regarding "pop" vs "soda." On a different thread someone even said hearing the word "pop" made them feel violent. That's why I will continue to call it "pop" for the rest of my life.

Its "pop and a hot dog" not "soda and frankfurter" where I'm from.

I've pretty much erased "pop" out of my vocabulary because people made such a big deal about it in NYC every time I said it. I got tired of it derailing the conversation.

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by JManc

I'm from Upstate NY, there's nothing Midwest about it.

Upstate NY west of Albany is basically eastern Michigan. I think most people would be hard pressed to describe what's different about them.

[Docere]

Italians

[deja vu]

Originally Posted by Docere

Italians

I'm assuming you mean more Italians in NY, but you'd be surprised taking a walk around metro Detroit. It's not the same concentration, for sure, but there is plenty of Italian influence left in the southeastern part of MI, including this beauty, and these markets, and these. Troy Michigan has an especially noticeable percentage of Italian names, flags, and food.

[Docere]

Wouldn't it be more accurate to say that eastern Michigan is "basically Western NY"?

[pj3000]

Originally Posted by eschaton

This is exactly what happened. Erie had a "northern" accent a century ago, but influence from Pittsburgh media shifted it to the "midland" dialect zone. Sort of the inverse of what happened to the corridor of small cities running from Chicago to St. Louis.

IIRC, Erie is the only place in the country where there was a dialect shift to midland. A shift to northern is far more common.

Good info. You can definitely still hear remnants of it among older generations every so often... particularly in the case of "old-school" Polish and Italians.

I guess it's mainly because Pittsburgh is in the same state because Erie is certainly much more similar to western NY than SW PA; including media, consumer, etc. markets.

Originally Posted by iheartthed

I've pretty much erased "pop" out of my vocabulary because people made such a big deal about it in NYC every time I said it. I got tired of it derailing the conversation.

Originally Posted by iheartthed

Upstate NY west of Albany is basically eastern Michigan. I think most people would be hard pressed to describe what's different about them.

I'm not well-traveled in eastern MI, but in my limited travels there, I definitely got an upstate NY vibe (excluding the Southern Tier, given topography). Accent is different in MI though -- more nasally than in upstate NY.

[JManc]

Originally Posted by iheartthed

Upstate NY west of Albany is basically eastern Michigan. I think most people would be hard pressed to describe what's different about them.

Not really. There's a lot more similarities with New England. Utica, where I'm from has a lot in common with Vermont and western Mass.

[Docere]

Originally Posted by deja vu

I'm assuming you mean more Italians in NY, but you'd be surprised taking a walk around metro Detroit. It's not the same concentration, for sure, but there is plenty of Italian influence left in the southeastern part of MI, including this beauty, and these markets, and these. Troy Michigan has an especially noticeable percentage of Italian names, flags, and food.

Right. Without even looking up the numbers, I'm pretty confident much larger Detroit has more people of Italian ancestry than Buffalo or Rochester do and Macomb County has a good-sized Italian population. But it's interesting to see the shift in Italian ancestry share from NYS to the Midwest.

Italian American

Rochester 16.4%
Buffalo 16.6%
Cleveland 9.9%
Detroit 6.3%
Chicago 6.9%
Milwaukee 4.4%

[Docere]

Originally Posted by JManc

Not really. There's a lot more similarities with New England. Utica, where I'm from has a lot in common with Vermont and western Mass.

And in Syracuse, Irish is the largest ancestry group.

[JManc]

Originally Posted by Docere

And in Syracuse, Irish is the largest ancestry group.

Kinda suprised with that. I assumed Italians were the most prevalent in SYR like Utica.

[pj3000]

Originally Posted by JManc

Not really. There's a lot more similarities with New England. Utica, where I'm from has a lot in common with Vermont and western Mass.

I definitely notice a more "New England" connection in Utica given the proximity, but I also feel that it has that common-throughout-upstate NY-vibe through and through that basically stretches from the Adirondacks / Catskills west to the Ohio line.

[benp]

When I first moved to Texas it seemed as if everyone I bonded with was from either NY, Ohio, Michigan, or Illinois. There certainly is a shared attitude and experience among Great Lakes people.

But I could always pick out the Buffalo accent in a crowd. I never realized how strong it was, even in comparison with other Great Lakes cities, until I lived in Texas.

Happened more than once, I had several "they gotta be from Buffalo" encounters that held true. Even places as close as Rochester or the Southern Tier don't have enough of that hard-A sound to stand out like a native Buffalonian.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by JManc

Kinda suprised with that. I assumed Italians were the most prevalent in SYR like Utica.

I always got the impression that Syracuse had a healthy mix of both Irish and Italian as the predominant groups there.

[pj3000]

Originally Posted by benp

Even places as close as Rochester or the Southern Tier don't have enough of that hard-A sound to stand out like a native Buffalonian.

I think it's just urban concentration. Happens similarly in Pittsburgh... you can often hear that harder core Pittsburghese, in comparison to surrounding areas.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by benp

I also recall that a lot of people had what I call a "Deputy Dog" accent - can still hear it in the Lockport Outdoor Store commercial, but I am not sure where this originates from. You still can hear a variation in accents and pronunciation today, but it seems less localized to particular areas as people move around all over.

He could be from Ontario except for just a few words:

impact

Timberland

brand

Transit