DENVER | Main Development Thread #7

[Robert.hampton]

Originally Posted by TakeFive

My Libertarian Heart



There are many reasons why I admired President Obama. For one thing whenever possible he made a point to be business-friendly. Fast forward to today and it's clear that at the Federal and local levels Dems look to Big Business (and the Uber Rich) to fix all their social concerns. That may not be a bad thing; it may not be a good thing. Ultimately the voters get to decide.

Generally, I have a distinct allergic reaction to "Growing Nannyism" which is promoted from both ends. Arizona has reverted to going anal with wanting to dictate what should NOT be taught in schools - for example. But they also just cut income taxes from 4.5% at the top down to (a flat) 2.5% to be phased in over time.

Liberals love to create Red Tape; lots and lots of rules and regs; it's in their DNA. Sometimes companies piss and moan and then adopt and adapt. But when and where is the tipping point? When does it become easier to just do business in a red state like Idaho, Utah, Arizona or Texas? The cost and convenience of doing business is often the determining factor. It may be a seemingly little thing that might send companies over the edge. Luckily, red states are often their own version of Stupid.

Its pretty clear that talent pool is the primary driving factor for companies right now, not cost of business. If cost of business was a driving factor no one would do business in California. And Austin would be the last place to do business in Texas. And Amazon wouldn't have selected the two most expensive markets in the country for its HQ2.

Agile and forward looking businesses were already disclosing salary ranges and I think anecdotally many felt the practice attracted a stronger talent pool. I'm fairly confident that salary disclosure will become commonplace across the country, if not mandatory, within a few years. These slower moving incumbents will take a while to get on board, but eventually will realize they are missing out by not being on this boat as it departs. Colorado is a forerunner on this and if anything I think it will continue to draw a competitive and educated workforce because of it, while 'business friendly' states mope along with tin-hat wearing factory workers making federal minimum wage. Red states always seem happy to engage in a race to the bottom when it comes to workers rights. Consequently it has also left many of them as the poorest states with high poverty rates, low-skilled work forces, and an exodus of educated workers to more affluent states.

[TakeFive]

Development questions have come up a few time for this site

Site of planned 15-story project near downtown Denver sold to another development firm
Jun 28, 2021 By James Rodriguez – Reporter, Denver Business Journal

The company behind a planned 15-story project that was slated to deliver more than 500 condo and apartment units to a full city block near downtown Denver has sold the proposed site to another multifamily developer.

Denver-based Grand Peaks, a multibillion-dollar real estate investment firm that specializes in apartment properties, appears to be the new owner of a roughly 2.7-acre parcel at the northwest corner of 26th Avenue and Alcott Street, in the Jefferson Park neighborhood. An entity tied to the company purchased the site from Tessler Developments, a New York City-based development firm, for $32.1 million, property records show.

Tessler had invested significant planning $'s for his proposal after he chucked the 1st idea, changed architects and redid the plan. But since he bought the site for $17.75 million in 2015 he came out fine. Best of luck with your NYC condo towers.

Also interesting is that this site is directly north of the recently discussed Diamond Hill site. Zoning is:

The vacant property — formerly the home of La Loma restaurant — is zoned R-MU-30, which allows for high-density residential development along with supporting commercial uses for "a truly mixed-use environment," according to the city.

[SirLucasTheGreat]

On the walkability issue in RiNo, that is a major issue in my opinion. I think the marketing world has made the boundaries of RiNo overly inclusive because every other developer wants to add the "RiNo" or "at RiNo" suffix to their project, rather than "at Denargo Market" or "at Curtis Park". Much like how Iraq should probably be three separate nation-states, RiNo should probably be subdivided into disparate, self-contained neighborhoods. I wish there was a little more emphasis on the Platte River because that would really help add some desirable amenities to the area (ala Riverfront, River Mile, etc...). I think there will be more Platte River inclusion going forward with Denargo Market


and then the RiNo promenade


but that should have been the focal point of the entire area, much like it will be for River Mile.

[mhays]

I know the feeling on these missing connections. Going over a railroad or freeway can cost tens of millions just for pedestrians, particularly since elevators or long ramps are often required. It's rare in my area too despite some obvious longtime needs.

[TakeFive]

Right in My Wheelhouse

Colorado Convention Center ranked 13th best overall in U.S
Jun 28, 2021 by: Kevin Torres - KDVR/Fox 31 Denver

Really the key takeaway here is this:

Not only is it considered the 13th best overall, but the Colorado Convention Center was also named the 3rd most popular convention center in the United States based on visitor reviews, as well as the 3rd greenest convention center in the country and the 10th most walkable.

“I think the one that really jumps out for us is the one that’s 3rd most popular, because that is the customers providing that feedback. And I think that’s something we’re really proud of,” said Rachel Benedick, with Visit Denver.

For those curious about the ratings source just click:
The Best of the Best: America’s Top Convention Centers in 2021

[twister244]

Originally Posted by TakeFive

Also interesting is that this site is directly north of the recently discussed Diamond Hill site. Zoning is:

That is the same site actually. This property is the site of the former La Lola. It's a great location that I'm sure someone will build something eventually on. Just a question of what exactly.....

[TakeFive]

The whole 'idear' here is to keep out all the Riff-Raff

Originally Posted by mhays

I'm impressed by RiNo's growth but not by how it's located.

Originally Posted by mhays

I know the feeling on these missing connections. Going over a railroad or freeway can cost tens of millions just for pedestrians, particularly since elevators or long ramps are often required. It's rare in my area too despite some obvious longtime needs.

Early on the catalyst for the area along Brighton Blvd was "industrial-chic" and being artsy affordable. But once the various disparate parcels were assembled for what became Denargo Market then it became a developers dream. Most of the land in this part of RiNo were larger parcels and easy to buy and develop.

Yes, it's attached to downtown but distinct from it. The area closest to the Platte River will be the sexiest part ultimately. For some the isolation may be a nice amenity.

The other part of RiNo which is an extension of downtown is in some ways the more bohemian area. But (originally) it has also been easier and less costly to acquire development sites.

[bulldurhamer]

Brighton is just a wall of apartments and not much else right now below the new park. :gross.

as far as the river goes, it's a deathtrap if you're walking. bicyclists have completely taken over the path along the river, in addition to the homeless campers, making walking completely undesirable.

but yay biking!

Originally Posted by TakeFive

The whole 'idear' here is to keep out all the Riff-Raff



Early on the catalyst for the area along Brighton Blvd was "industrial-chic" and being artsy affordable. But once the various disparate parcels were assembled for what became Denargo Market then it became a developers dream. Most of the land in this part of RiNo were larger parcels and easy to buy and develop.

Yes, it's attached to downtown but distinct from it. The area closest to the Platte River will be the sexiest part ultimately. For some the isolation may be a nice amenity.

The other part of RiNo which is an extension of downtown is in some ways the more bohemian area. But (originally) it has also been easier and less costly to acquire development sites.

[SirLucasTheGreat]

I'm all about biking but I think it would be great if the Platte River had a well designated pedestrian side and then bike/scooter/Roman Chariot side, like the city has on the Cherry Creek trail north of Colfax. The homeless issue is a separate issue that requires a much more nuanced and astute strategy.

[The Dirt]

Originally Posted by twister244

That is the same site actually. This property is the site of the former La Lola. It's a great location that I'm sure someone will build something eventually on. Just a question of what exactly.....

Are you sure? Looking at Google Maps, the La Loma site is between 26th & 27th Aves, where you can see a disassembled green tower crane. The Diamond Hill site is between 26th and Byron.

[TakeFive]

I'm happy to agree with some this

Originally Posted by Robert.hampton

Its pretty clear that talent pool is the primary driving factor for companies right now, not cost of business. If cost of business was a driving factor no one would do business in California. And Austin would be the last place to do business in Texas. And Amazon wouldn't have selected the two most expensive markets in the country for its HQ2.

Talent pool is always important. To Denver's advantage where the 'talent pool' wants to live is also important.

BIG TECH prints money; they can do whatever they want wherever they want. For Amazon, NoVa is a strategically valuable area for both business and political reasons. OTOH, Nashville is not expensive.

While Big Tech may forever want their HQ in the Bay Area, their biggest expansion has been in business-friendly states like No Carolina or Texas as well as Utah, Idaho Tennessee etc.

Originally Posted by Robert.hampton

Agile and forward looking businesses were already disclosing salary ranges and I think anecdotally many felt the practice attracted a stronger talent pool.

That's fine; companies making their own decisions as apposed to being dictated to and having to fill out a bunch of silly-ass paperwork is quite another. With Indeed, etc etc it really isn't all that hard to find numbers.

There's only so many Big Tech companies. Newer, even rapidly growing tech companies are not guaranteed to become Unicorns.

Originally Posted by Robert.hampton

Colorado.. will continue to draw a competitive and educated workforce because of it...

I agree; Colorado likely can afford to be a bit cavalier. How smart that is, is a different question.

Originally Posted by Robert.hampton

... while 'business friendly' states mope along with tin-hat wearing factory workers making federal minimum wage.

Hoo Boy... today's fabrication facilities are not your Grandpa's factories.

The largest independent microprocessor manufacturer in the World, Taiwan Semiconductor recently bought a large parcel of land in suburban north Phoenix to build a 1st phase $12 billion Fab. Even more recently a Big area of land was sold to accommodate all the new suppliers for their new Fab. Intel recently announced an over $20 billion expansion of microchips at their Chandler facility (over time). The next prize will be Samsung's $17 billion microprocessor facility. Austin is the frontrunner while Phoenix is making their play. These new Fabs will produce ~5nm chipsets. Perhaps you're not familiar with today's factories?

Originally Posted by Robert.hampton

Red states always seem happy to engage in a race to the bottom when it comes to workers rights. Consequently it has also left many of them as the poorest states with high poverty rates, low-skilled work forces, and an exodus of educated workers to more affluent states.

It's fair to say that many red states are more affordable. But having most of the new auto manufacturing facilities (for example) that offer nice jobs is not such a bad thing.

BTW, if you check out the university system in Texas it's one of the best. Surprisingly Alabama's is not too shabby and they have been growing their aerospace industry footprint. Add North Carolina for its exceptional quality reputation of universities.

[mojiferous]

Originally Posted by bulldurhamer

Brighton is just a wall of apartments and not much else right now below the new park. :gross.

as far as the river goes, it's a deathtrap if you're walking. bicyclists have completely taken over the path along the river, in addition to the homeless campers, making walking completely undesirable.

but yay biking!

For someone who has been vocal about making sure neighborhoods don't change and that the "original residents" stay put, I'd have thought you would be fighting for the people who have been living in RiNO the longest: the homeless. They were there long before the apartments, before the restaurants and galleries, before Rhinoceropolis and warehouse parties.

I had relatives who worked at DriveTrain in the early 80s when it was on Brighton and there is no reason to go back. Brighton was dirty and mostly abandoned. Homeless people would burn trash to keep warm like 30s hobos. A good friend worked in Floyd's corporate offices in the old Denargo Market in the late 90s and there is no reason to go back. It was even more abandoned and dirtier and morphed into something closer to the Carter from New Jack City. I know the people who ran (run...) Rhinoceropolis and had seen so many shows there (and played a few) in the 2000s and there is still little reason to go back. It was cheap and artists could thrive, but it wasn't a neighborhood - there were no restaurants or grocery stores, taxis refused to come after 10pm, and anything not locked down was stolen or peed on.

The only thing that was better then was the price of rent. Yes, the apartments are boring and they're too expensive for a lot of people that need housing close to the city. And you probably think they're too high and block the sunlight or your mountain views or something. BUT, it was never "better" on Brighton, and it sure is a lot more vibrant now than it ever was.

And this all comes down to the fact that people want to go back to this mythical time in Denver when it was both cheap AND desirable. But here's the thing: it never was both. People want $200 rents and $30,000 houses in east Denver but don't want to deal with the Rollin 30s (speaking of which, we won't even go into the Park Hill golf course and the Holly shopping center, which they burnt down). They want the old days along 32nd and Zuni and South Santa Fe but don't want to think about the color of their shirt and shoes every time they leave the house. They want Globeville prices from before the Superfund cleanup.


Old Denver was not a great place, but people forget that or don't know because they've been here for less than 20 years. Because they don't know they assume the only change in these neighborhoods has been new construction and higher prices, so they want things to go back to how they were before. To not change. To be cheap and coooool again. But that Denver never was.

[TakeFive]

Props to Historic Renovation - I love it.

All photos courtesy Capitol Hill United Neighborhoods via CBS4 Denver

..........

Renovation Of Denver’s Historic Tears-McFarlane Mansion To Include Community Café & Meeting Space
June 28, 2021 By Audra Streetman - CBS4 Denver

DENVER (CBS4) – A historic mansion in Denver’s Capitol Hill neighborhood is about to get a makeover. A renovation project is planned for the Tears-McFarlane property, located on the northern edge of Cheesman Park.

Capitol Hill United Neighborhoods, City Street Investors and Semple Brown Design have teamed up to construct a freestanding café next to the historic mansion, which will replace an annex built in the 1980s. Designers say the café will feature a conservatory design and garden terrace where residents can meet for coffee and casual meals.

What about the Mansion itself?

“The Tears McFarlane Mansion will be transformed into a space that captures the spirit of Cheesman Park, the people who live in the surrounding neighborhoods and visitors who want to enjoy part of Denver’s history,” said Travis Leiker, President and Executive Director of Capitol Hill United Neighborhoods.

The renovation project will also add meeting rooms on the main and lower levels of the home where people can work and hold meetings. Officials plan to release more details about this phase of the project this summer with work planned later this year.

Can't wait; I want to bring my date.

[Ndj]

Denver's Platte river trail has needed widening for a while now. Dedicated biking/walking paths would be awesome.

[bunt_q]

Originally Posted by mojiferous

For someone who has been vocal about making sure neighborhoods don't change and that the "original residents" stay put, I'd have thought you would be fighting for the people who have been living in RiNO the longest: the homeless. They were there long before the apartments, before the restaurants and galleries, before Rhinoceropolis and warehouse parties.

I had relatives who worked at DriveTrain in the early 80s when it was on Brighton and there is no reason to go back. Brighton was dirty and mostly abandoned. Homeless people would burn trash to keep warm like 30s hobos. A good friend worked in Floyd's corporate offices in the old Denargo Market in the late 90s and there is no reason to go back. It was even more abandoned and dirtier and morphed into something closer to the Carter from New Jack City. I know the people who ran (run...) Rhinoceropolis and had seen so many shows there (and played a few) in the 2000s and there is still little reason to go back. It was cheap and artists could thrive, but it wasn't a neighborhood - there were no restaurants or grocery stores, taxis refused to come after 10pm, and anything not locked down was stolen or peed on.

The only thing that was better then was the price of rent. Yes, the apartments are boring and they're too expensive for a lot of people that need housing close to the city. And you probably think they're too high and block the sunlight or your mountain views or something. BUT, it was never "better" on Brighton, and it sure is a lot more vibrant now than it ever was.

And this all comes down to the fact that people want to go back to this mythical time in Denver when it was both cheap AND desirable. But here's the thing: it never was both. People want $200 rents and $30,000 houses in east Denver but don't want to deal with the Rollin 30s (speaking of which, we won't even go into the Park Hill golf course and the Holly shopping center, which they burnt down). They want the old days along 32nd and Zuni and South Santa Fe but don't want to think about the color of their shirt and shoes every time they leave the house. They want Globeville prices from before the Superfund cleanup.


Old Denver was not a great place, but people forget that or don't know because they've been here for less than 20 years. Because they don't know they assume the only change in these neighborhoods has been new construction and higher prices, so they want things to go back to how they were before. To not change. To be cheap and coooool again. But that Denver never was.

Amen.

Or the dead body the police left out laying out on the sidewalk in the hot sun all day... in front of a house that I could barely afford to live in today. But $1200 rent divided between 5 people in a giant house walkable to downtown sure was nice...

[RyanD]

Originally Posted by SirLucasTheGreat

RiNo is heating up. As I mentioned earlier today, Carmel looks to be starting their 12-story project at 3900 Brighton. New RiNo projects under construction/preparing for construction:

3930 Blake - 16 stories
3900 Brighton - 12 stories
Foundry Line - 16 stories
The Current - 12 stories
Novel RiNo - 12 stories
Residences at RiNo - 12 stories

Bless. Looks like I got to get back out there


Anyways, here are some tasty snacks for:

Novel RiNo:



FoundryLine:



The Current:

[SirLucasTheGreat]

Thanks, Ryan! Those shots look incredible. Does anybody know whether Watershed, T3 by Hines, or WTC are moving forward? Two 12-story towers near the RiNo promenade should start at the beginning of 2022 for the Hurley Place project.

[twister244]

Originally Posted by mojiferous

The only thing that was better then was the price of rent. Yes, the apartments are boring and they're too expensive for a lot of people that need housing close to the city. And you probably think they're too high and block the sunlight or your mountain views or something. BUT, it was never "better" on Brighton, and it sure is a lot more vibrant now than it ever was.

And this all comes down to the fact that people want to go back to this mythical time in Denver when it was both cheap AND desirable. But here's the thing: it never was both. People want $200 rents and $30,000 houses in east Denver but don't want to deal with the Rollin 30s (speaking of which, we won't even go into the Park Hill golf course and the Holly shopping center, which they burnt down). They want the old days along 32nd and Zuni and South Santa Fe but don't want to think about the color of their shirt and shoes every time they leave the house. They want Globeville prices from before the Superfund cleanup.


Old Denver was not a great place, but people forget that or don't know because they've been here for less than 20 years. Because they don't know they assume the only change in these neighborhoods has been new construction and higher prices, so they want things to go back to how they were before. To not change. To be cheap and coooool again. But that Denver never was.

When it comes to rent, I don't think Denver has gotten that out of hand. There was a big spike in the mid 2010s, but things cooled off over the last couple of years. House prices though.... That's another story. I don't expect Denver to be affordable in the sense that you find houses for under $200k, but what's happened to Denver is just not sustainable. When I put a price cap of $350k in Denver on Redfin, there's only 187 properties listed. Do the same exercise for Chicago and you find almost 6,000 properties.

Yes, there is a national upwards trend in the housing market, but Denver is way out there in terms of being too expensive. Unfortunately, I don't see an easy fix for this in the future. Lakewood implementing their housing cap was not just bad for them, it was bad for Denver because now Denver will have to try to accommodate that growth that Lakewood have otherwise have swallowed up.

[The Dirt]

Originally Posted by mojiferous

All the words

Nostalgia is a hell of a drug. As long as the past was this mythical, beautiful place where bad things didn't happen, you get free license to hate everything new. It's like boomer hipsterism.

[RyanD]

Originally Posted by twister244

When it comes to rent, I don't think Denver has gotten that out of hand. There was a big spike in the mid 2010s, but things cooled off over the last couple of years. House prices though.... That's another story. I don't expect Denver to be affordable in the sense that you find houses for under $200k, but what's happened to Denver is just not sustainable. When I put a price cap of $350k in Denver on Redfin, there's only 187 properties listed. Do the same exercise for Chicago and you find almost 6,000 properties.

Yes, there is a national upwards trend in the housing market, but Denver is way out there in terms of being too expensive. Unfortunately, I don't see an easy fix for this in the future. Lakewood implementing their housing cap was not just bad for them, it was bad for Denver because now Denver will have to try to accommodate that growth that Lakewood have otherwise have swallowed up.

I think a lot of it is supply, no? We needed like 10 Spire's U/C yesterday. Chicago is so affordable because they have a crap ton of supply.