The Vancouver Business Thread

[Changing City]

There's been some discussion about losing hotels in the Downtown thread, but as we apparently don't have a hotel thread I thought this was probably the right place to illustrate how difficult things have been, and why many hotel projects across the region are apparently being re-thought.

As they're a publicly traded company, Wall Financial issue statements on their performance, and as their rooms are all in Vancouver the information is instructive about the state of the business locally. Here's an extract from the latest company results.

"The declaration of the COVID-19 virus as a pandemic by the World Health Organization on March 11, 2020, and the subsequent shut downs globally, domestically and locally have had a significant impact on the Company's hotel operations. The Company enacted cost reduction programs at its two hotels, which include the closure of one of the two towers at its downtown hotel, the furlough of all non-essential staff, and the elimination of all but the most necessary expenses in order to preserve cash flow. The situation is dynamic and the ultimate duration and magnitude of the impact on the economy and the Company's business is not known at this time. For the year ended January 31, 2021, the Company's hotel operations have experienced a significant decline in current and future guest bookings and occupancy levels are low, resulting in a decrease of revenues from hotel operations from $91,752,872 for the year ended January 31, 2020 to $15,394,607 for the year ended January 31, 2021."

[Migrant_Coconut]

Well, there's no shortage of luxury hotels (898 and 901 Broadway, for example); I believe the concern was the loss of many budget hotels, which don't come by as often.

[Changing City]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Well, there's no shortage of luxury hotels (898 and 901 Broadway, for example); I believe the concern was the loss of many budget hotels, which don't come by as often.

True, but given the overheads for a budget hotel aren't significantly lower than a luxury hotel in terms of day to day operations, wouldn't they be in even greater financial problems than a Wall level of operation? And independent hotel operators won't have the depth of pocket that Wall has to ride out a dramatic drop in revenue like Wall has seen.

The dropped Avani in Surrey was a Hampton Inn, so not exactly a luxury brand. I'm not sure if any brand was attached to the Janda hotel that didn't happen on 136A in Surrey, but that was probably not going to be a luxury brand either. So it seems like we're seeing some higher end hotels being built, budget hotels closing, and few new budget hotels opening, anywhere in the region, not just in the city.

[officedweller]

From BIV today:

U.S. giant takes aim at Vancouver’s Precision NanoSystems with latest acquisition deal
https://biv.com/article/2021/06/danaher-...sion-nanosystems-latest-acquisition-deal

[jollyburger]

Originally Posted by officedweller

From BIV today:

U.S. giant takes aim at Vancouver’s Precision NanoSystems with latest acquisition deal
https://biv.com/article/2021/06/danaher-...sion-nanosystems-latest-acquisition-deal

I wonder if the Canadian government will block it?

[supercanuck]

https://dailyhive.com/vancouver/us-bill-alaska-cruise-ships-skip-bc-ports-permanently

Potentially devastating blow to BC's cruise ship industry. I feel Vancouver can probably stand on it's own as port that tourists want to go to visit. Not sure about Victoria.

[s211]

Originally Posted by supercanuck

I feel Vancouver can probably stand on it's own as port that tourists want to go to visit. Not sure about Victoria.

C'mon, the moment Victoria opens a world-class cancel culture museum, the world will be beating a track to its front door.

Victoria's got fewer and fewer reasons to visit over the years. Aside for a few Canadians who may find it to be an exotic retirement locale, what's the point of going there these days? Aside from having to kiss a bureaucratic ring or ten, that is.

[scryer]

Originally Posted by s211

C'mon, the moment Victoria opens a world-class cancel culture museum, the world will be beating a track to its front door.

Victoria's got fewer and fewer reasons to visit over the years. Aside for a few Canadians who may find it to be an exotic retirement locale, what's the point of going there these days? Aside from having to kiss a bureaucratic ring or ten, that is.

Butchart Gardens are world class. The Royal BC museum is also pretty great as well if we are going to be doing a laundry list .

But the advantage to visiting Victoria is that it's a decent hub to explore the rest of the island from. For example, if you wanted to head out to Tofino, there are a couple of bus connections that can get you there.

That's just me throwing it a hell of a bone though because Nanaimo pretty much offers the same kind of connections and probably for much less. And besides, anyone who's visiting the island, will be likely to rent a vehicle there anyways .

[Migrant_Coconut]

Cunard, Hapag-Lloyd, Hurtigruten and NYK aren't American; their cruise liners come here anyway. Vancouver should be fine.

But yes, Victoria's screwed - especially if/when Vancouver gets a natural history museum of its own (Beatty Biodiversity and Science World don't count).

[Klazu]

Victoria is nice. I didn't think too much about it before visiting and it took me 7 years of living in here, but I was positively surprised by how much there is to see and how different it feels like. I especially loved visiting it by the fast ferry as that was super convenient.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Nice to live, absolutely, but nice to spend a day at? Even Vancouver's got more tourist stuff.

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Cunard, Hapag-Lloyd, Hurtigruten and NYK aren't American; their cruise liners come here anyway. Vancouver should be fine.

But yes, Victoria's screwed - especially if/when Vancouver gets a natural history museum of its own (Beatty Biodiversity and Science World don't count).

Cunard is owned by Carnival and is essentially run out of the US.

[zoomer]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Nice to live, absolutely, but nice to spend a day at? Even Vancouver's got more tourist stuff.

It may and probably should considering the population is 7 x that of Victoria and the land area far more massive as well. That being said Victoria has been a top tourist destination for well over a century, has been consistently ranked internationally as a top tourist destination and the cruise ship boom has only been in the past couple of decades. Sure cruise ships bypassing Canada would be bad for BC, but some still will visit Victoria in that event. Over 4 million tourists came to the city pre-pandemic, and there is still the usual sources of visitors plus the popular Seattle to Victoria Clipper catamarans, the Coho ferry to Port Angeles which brings in American tourists.

As Klazu mentioned Victoria is quite distinct and has a different feel from Vancouver. If you haven’t been here in the past decade you’ll likely be surprised at the increased density and vibrancy of downtown. I love Vancouver and pre-pandemic would be over several times a year, but I can honestly say that overall I prefer downtown Victoria in terms of a pedestrian enjoyment experience. Less gaps of interest due to the small building footprint size, so many local/quirky shops, food, stores, pubs, restaurants, bakeries, etc are spread evenly throughout a large area. Historic alleyways, the beauty of the inner harbour, fisherman’s wharf, etc, etc etc. I would say the what Victoria is missing that Vancouver has is beautiful high rise architecture, outdoor swimming pools ironically enough, a wider array of high end shopping, and more/better restaurants (although Victoria is a mid-sized city foodie mecca, with popular Victoria restaurants now opening up locations in Vancouver (Jam, Superbaba, Silk Road Tea).

Even living in Victoria there is no way I could see and do all the things I would want in a full week, never mind a day, but I guess if you don’t know the city and you walk up the one main tourist street you might think there isn’t much else to do. Then you look at Victoria being a base for South Island ventures, add in another week of amazing natural beauty and spectacular sites. This post NOT brought to you by the local tourist association, lol.

Edit - forgot to mention the obvious - Vancouver of course has more big name concerts, sports and nightclubs!

[svlt]

For a tourist I would wager Victoria is equally as interesting as Vancouver which is sad considering it's like 400,000 people vs almost 3 million. As mentioned, the Butchart Gardens, Royal BC museum, Bateman gallery and others are up there with Vancouver's offerings in that department (VAG, MOV, Museum of anthropology, Van Dusen) and then if you can count most of the island as accessible for a tourist in Victoria (in the same vein as, say, going to Whistler is for Vancouver) then you've got a lot going on.

It misses on world class shopping and diversity of dining - but food in Victoria is generally very highly regarded, even against a city many times its size - but there is enough charm old and new I wouldn't for a second think Vancouver is clearly the superior tourist destination.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by zoomer

... Even living in Victoria there is no way I could see and do all the things I would want in a full week, never mind a day, but I guess if you don’t know the city and you walk up the one main tourist street you might think there isn’t much else to do. Then you look at Victoria being a base for South Island ventures, add in another week of amazing natural beauty and spectacular sites. This post NOT brought to you by the local tourist association, lol.

That's pretty much the problem. I have no doubt Victoria has plenty of things to do if you know what to look for... most tourists and out-of-towners will likely not. Vancouver itself is sometimes contested as "dull."

Originally Posted by svlt

For a tourist I would wager Victoria is equally as interesting as Vancouver which is sad considering it's like 400,000 people vs almost 3 million. As mentioned, the Butchart Gardens, Royal BC museum, Bateman gallery and others are up there with Vancouver's offerings in that department (VAG, MOV, Museum of anthropology, Van Dusen) and then if you can count most of the island as accessible for a tourist in Victoria (in the same vein as, say, going to Whistler is for Vancouver) then you've got a lot going on.

It misses on world class shopping and diversity of dining - but food in Victoria is generally very highly regarded, even against a city many times its size - but there is enough charm old and new I wouldn't for a second think Vancouver is clearly the superior tourist destination.

I don't think we have the same kind of tourist in mind; Butchart, Royal BC and the restaurants are great, don't get me wrong, but the (admittedly few) one-day cruisegoers I know are going to make a beeline for the clubs, casinos, shopping, dining or photo ops, and Victoria's really only got the last two.

[madog222]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Cunard, Hapag-Lloyd, Hurtigruten and NYK aren't American; their cruise liners come here anyway. Vancouver should be fine.

But yes, Victoria's screwed - especially if/when Vancouver gets a natural history museum of its own (Beatty Biodiversity and Science World don't count).

It doesn’t matter where the company is run from, only the registration of the ship. Ignoring one in Hawaii which has an exemption there are no US registered cruise ships.

[casper]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

That's pretty much the problem. I have no doubt Victoria has plenty of things to do if you know what to look for... most tourists and out-of-towners will likely not. Vancouver itself is sometimes contested as "dull."



I don't think we have the same kind of tourist in mind; Butchart, Royal BC and the restaurants are great, don't get me wrong, but the (admittedly few) one-day cruisegoers I know are going to make a beeline for the clubs, casinos, shopping, dining or photo ops, and Victoria's really only got the last two.

If you talk to some of the downtown merchants in Victoria they are somewhat indifferent to cruise ship traffic. Unless you selling low cost trinkets there just is not a big money maker. A good number of passengers have pre-purchased tour packages where they are bused out on a tour that comes back to the ship in time for departure. Some will go for a walk and may spend a few bucks downtown. The real values comes in seeing the city and deciding to come back.

The key difference for the cruise ship industry between Vancouver and Victoria is Vancouver is a home port and Victoria is a stop. The home port is were passengers start or end their cruise.

Most cruise ships who stop in Victoria are using Seattle as the home port. They use Victoria as the last stop on a cruise before it ends in Seattle early the next day early in the morning.

Vancouver being a home port means people fly in and start there trip in Vancouver. Many are worried about flight connections etc. so they come in the day before or perhaps a day or two before.

Many of the Alaska cruises from Seattle are 7 day round trip cruises. Many of the trips from Vancouver are 7 day one-way to/from Alaska that can be booked as 14 day round trips.

Someone in the industry several years ago told me the Vancouver based cruises tend to have more European guests and Americans that are typically also looking for a longer cruise. The Seattle cruses tend to more American families who need to fit things into a family vacation period.

[zoomer]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

That's pretty much the problem. I have no doubt Victoria has plenty of things to do if you know what to look for... most tourists and out-of-towners will likely not. Vancouver itself is sometimes contested as "dull."

I don't think we have the same kind of tourist in mind; Butchart, Royal BC and the restaurants are great, don't get me wrong, but the (admittedly few) one-day cruisegoers I know are going to make a beeline for the clubs, casinos, shopping, dining or photo ops, and Victoria's really only got the last two.

As Casper said above Victoria is a day stop, so most passengers are not going out to nightclubs and casinos - and with most cruise ship passengers being seniors or families I think nightclub outings are uncommon. I believe there is a shuttle bus to the casino in Langford, but why would passengers do that when they have limited time and casinos and nightclubs on board as well. Victoria has convenient shopping for tourists, so that’s a draw, trinkets, Canadiana, higher end art, jewellery, clothing, etc. It’s the pubs and restaurants/cafes that benefit the most in the downtown core, besides the gardens, castles, etc. Also bike rentals, moped rentals, the cruise ships are their bread and butter. But a lot of locals wouldn’t be terribly upset to see a reduction in ships. When three ships are in at once it’s knee deep in gawking tourists blocking sidewalks while oblivious to the fact that they’re in a city and not a theme park.

Still reduced traffic will have an impact and result in some job losses, but it’s hardly a death blow. Tourism has always been and will always be a major industry in Victoria.

[teriyaki]

I hadn't been to Victoria despite living in Vancouver all my life and just went basically for the first time last year because of the death of international travel. I always thought of it as a dull place where government worked. Was pleasantly surprised at how nice a place it was to spend a day or two. Its immensely walkable, that Vancouver just can't match. I wouldn't say its a fair comparison to compare the two as the two cities are really much too far apart in the type of "destination" they are.

Before this, I'd always meet people that had visited Vancouver from overseas all over and so many times I've heard that the most memorable part of their trip was going to Victoria. I finally get it.

Kind of like, Osaka is a huge bustling city with basically everything you could hope for on-tap but its a huge place and you have to seek those places and experiences out. Most visitors make their memories in nearby Kyoto, because that's where you get heavy hit after hit of what people envision "Japan" is. I think Victoria just manages to evoke the type of "Canadian" feel to travellers in a way that is kind of indescribable.

[zoomer]

Very interesting teriyaki, makes a lot of sense. I’d say that in the last twenty years Victoria has really matured from the stereotypical government and tourist town and found it’s own identity. Gone are a lot of tacky tourist attractions and for the most part selling the “A Little Bit of Olde England” angle. Homelessness and drug addiction has become a major issue; however, but I guess that’s quite widespread now. Interesting Japan analogy, I guess I had the same going to Ireland - Dublin is a fun/interesting city, but it’s the countryside and smaller towns that really stick in your mind.

I think a lot of people have an image of Victoria set in their mind, and if you’re from Vancouver, you’d be like ‘why visit?’ I have all I need in a bigger city, so I’d rather go to a larger city outside the province, or to the interior for some hot weather and lake fun. It seems like there is a split with half the Vancouver folks having strong ties to the island and often Victoria, and the other half who are totally disconnected and never come over, in part because of the time required and ferry costs.