Canada's 'housing bubble' deemed close to bursting

[Wigs]

Originally Posted by milomilo

It really isn't that important, we're part of a global supply chain and growing berries in Ontario is not going to make or break Canada in any scenario. It's just a nice to have, and if people in Ontario like having that farmland fine - but the population needs to also be comfortable with densifying their cities.

This comment is extremely ignorant. Ontario produces some 200 food and farm products, employs 820,000 people in the agricultural sector and contributes $40B to Ontario's GDP.

In Niagara the soil is so fertile (not unlike Okanagan region) we can grow almost anything from corn to grapes, peaches, nectarines, apples, cherries, blueberries, practically any vegetable one can imagine.

You want the almost 15 Million Ontarians (almost 4x the population of Alberta) to import all of our food? Bonkers.

After Québec, Ontario is number 2 in number of dairy farms.

Do you want your milk to come from the United States where they allow bovine growth hormones? (banned in Canada). I sure AF do not.

[goodgrowth]

Originally Posted by Wigs

Do you want your milk to come from the United States where they allow bovine growth hormones? (banned in Canada). I sure AF do not.

Ah yes Canadian milk...the other supply managed product like housing that is overpriced.

[Wigs]

Originally Posted by goodgrowth

Ah yes Canadian milk...the other supply managed product like housing that is overpriced.

Unlike the US, Canadian dairy farmers actually make a living wage and we don't overproduce.

In the US millions of gallons of (bovine growth hormone) milk ~3.7 Million gallons/day is dumped down the drains.
What a colossal waste of resources.

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by Wigs

This comment is extremely ignorant. Ontario produces some 200 food and farm products, employs 820,000 people in the agricultural sector and contributes $40B to Ontario's GDP.

In Niagara the soil is so fertile (not unlike Okanagan region) we can grow almost anything from corn to grapes, peaches, nectarines, apples, cherries, blueberries, practically any vegetable one can imagine.

You want the almost 15 Million Ontarians (almost 4x the population of Alberta) to import all of our food? Bonkers.

After Québec, Ontario is number 2 in number of dairy farms.

Do you want your milk to come from the United States where they allow bovine growth hormones? (banned in Canada). I sure AF do not.

[WarrenC12]

Cow's milk is for baby cows. Do adults here actually drink milk?

[jonny24]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

Cow's milk is for baby cows. Do adults here actually drink milk?

I don't drink much liquid milk, but I eat a — load of cheese and yogurt.

[jonny24]

Originally Posted by milomilo

It really isn't that important, we're part of a global supply chain and growing berries in Ontario is not going to make or break Canada in any scenario. It's just a nice to have, and if people in Ontario like having that farmland fine - but the population needs to also be comfortable with densifying their cities.

How well did that go with PPE and vaccines?

[lio45]

A friend shared this landlord joke with me, made me think of this thread

[esquire]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

Cow's milk is for baby cows. Do adults here actually drink milk?

Every morning on my cereal, broskie

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by esquire

Every morning on my cereal, broskie

I'll refrain from further judgement.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by esquire

Every morning on my cereal, broskie

We were made to get along.

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by jonny24

How well did that go with PPE and vaccines?

Incredibly well, do you actually think this is a good example? Do you think you'd be vaccinated now if it wasn't for the global economy?

[Wigs]

Originally Posted by milomilo

Incredibly well, do you actually think this is a good example? Do you think you'd be vaccinated now if it wasn't for the global economy?

My friends (<40y.o.) in Buffalo have been fully vaccinated (aka both doses) for months. My one friend since March.

In Ontario, I was only able to get my first vaccine at the end of May and my next one scheduled for September

Canadians would be fully vaccinated too if we actually had the capacity to make vaccines in-house

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by Wigs

This comment is extremely ignorant. Ontario produces some 200 food and farm products, employs 820,000 people in the agricultural sector and contributes $40B to Ontario's GDP.

In Niagara the soil is so fertile (not unlike Okanagan region) we can grow almost anything from corn to grapes, peaches, nectarines, apples, cherries, blueberries, practically any vegetable one can imagine.

You want the almost 15 Million Ontarians (almost 4x the population of Alberta) to import all of our food? Bonkers.

After Québec, Ontario is number 2 in number of dairy farms.

Do you want your milk to come from the United States where they allow bovine growth hormones? (banned in Canada). I sure AF do not.

It's not ignorant, it's logical and based on actual data, not the emotional arguments that your strawman - riddled post exemplifies. I'll ignore the strawmen and dismantle the rest.

$40B you say? Wow! Such a big number! Funny though, the Ontario economy is larger still and that amounts to less than 1% of it. And your 820,000 people employed number - made up. The real number is about 60,000 - 70,000.

So, as I have said, the importance of this agricultural lands is overstated. There is no food security issue, Canada is a trading nation like everyone else, and like all the other countries imports a lot of food at the same time it exports. The best thing we can do for Canadians to give them food security is to allow them to be as rich as possible, and high housing cost gets in the way of that.

And as has been stated, this debate is based on a false premise anyway. The amount of farmland actually being consumed by urban sprawl is small in the grand scheme of things. And it's a distraction - the focus of attention should not be the redevelopment of farmland for more economically valuable purposes, it should be on allowing density to be built in our cities such that the economic push to build on those fields is lessened.

[Wigs]

My data was from the OFA, Ontario Federation of Agriculture.
The GDP of the agri-food sector is actually over $47B now in 2021

Maybe in Calgary you have no reason to care about Ontario growing crops and raising animals to feed itself, but a high percentage of Ontarians actually do.
Sacrificing prime arable land for more sprawl consisting of shoddy built homes is foolish.

Adding density to existing towns and cities is the way to move forward.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by milomilo

It's not ignorant, it's logical and based on actual data, not the emotional arguments that your strawman - riddled post exemplifies. I'll ignore the strawmen and dismantle the rest.

$40B you say? Wow! Such a big number! Funny though, the Ontario economy is larger still and that amounts to less than 1% of it. And your 820,000 people employed number - made up. The real number is about 60,000 - 70,000.

So, as I have said, the importance of this agricultural lands is overstated. There is no food security issue, Canada is a trading nation like everyone else, and like all the other countries imports a lot of food at the same time it exports. The best thing we can do for Canadians to give them food security is to allow them to be as rich as possible, and high housing cost gets in the way of that.

And as has been stated, this debate is based on a false premise anyway. The amount of farmland actually being consumed by urban sprawl is small in the grand scheme of things. And it's a distraction - the focus of attention should not be the redevelopment of farmland for more economically valuable purposes, it should be on allowing density to be built in our cities such that the economic push to build on those fields is lessened.

Mostly agree except on one thing: even though it wouldn't be the end of the world if we did continue to pave over our best soils for strip malls and cheap McMansions, it's stupid to do that; let's densify our urban areas instead.

[casper]

Originally Posted by milomilo

Incredibly well, do you actually think this is a good example? Do you think you'd be vaccinated now if it wasn't for the global economy?

Actually due to the assistance of China and Europe.

The US limited 3M from exporting masks into Canada and meeting the needs of one of their long time customers. We were able to made due with China helping out and maintaining an open boarder.

As for the vaccine why did Pfizer supply the Canadian market out of Belgium when we were so close to their US plant? The US trade embargo on the export of COVID vaccines. The Europeans were willing to keep the supply to Canada open as long as our rate of supply did not dramatically increase above the EU rate.

We need to identify those items that are strategic to national security and ensure those are produced domestically. In a global emergency the US has demonstrated that NAFTA (or whatever it is called) is not worth the paper it is printed on.

On the food front, we don't have to ensure all food is grown locally but that sufficient supply is domestically produced that our population is not starving. If we do that by keeping a few key staples, (e.g. milk and eggs) under production control so be it.

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by lio45

Mostly agree except on one thing: even though it wouldn't be the end of the world if we did continue to pave over our best soils for strip malls and cheap McMansions, it's stupid to do that; let's densify our urban areas instead.

There's obviously a middle ground (which isn't necessarily the status quo), if we took the "building on farmland is bad" thing to the logical extreme then the only acceptable built form would be an infinitely small, infinitely dense plot of land. And why is the status quo farmland assumed to be optimal? It's absurd to think it's the absolute pinnacle of efficient land use, I bet if necessary you could grow more food on less land.

Regardless, I agree we should densify where possible. The problem is aside from us nerds, the people in the real world don't care and are generally incapable of identifying the correct solutions to problems, and don't make the connection that their desire for some perceived bucolic farmland on the edge of town is at odds with their other desire of banning any construction near their house.

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by Wigs

My data was from the OFA, Ontario Federation of Agriculture.
The GDP of the agri-food sector is actually over $47B now in 2021

Maybe in Calgary you have no reason to care about Ontario growing crops and raising animals to feed itself, but a high percentage of Ontarians actually do.
Sacrificing prime arable land for more sprawl consisting of shoddy built homes is foolish.

Adding density to existing towns and cities is the way to move forward.

They may care, but it is for emotional reasons with little basic in anything logical. And yet again, you are using bad faith arguments here.

The Ontario economy is something like $700B and the actual farm component of the figure you quote is somewhat less than stated, so the real economic impact of any particular field is infinitesimal. We have a well known way of determining if something is valuable, it's called "price". If it is valuable to Ontarians to turn a field into housing, then the price will be paid.

[casper]

Originally Posted by milomilo

They may care, but it is for emotional reasons with little basic in anything logical. And yet again, you are using bad faith arguments here.

The Ontario economy is something like $700B and the actual farm component of the figure you quote is somewhat less than stated, so the real economic impact of any particular field is infinitesimal. We have a well known way of determining if something is valuable, it's called "price". If it is valuable to Ontarians to turn a field into housing, then the price will be paid.

If your going to look at numbers you need to have a complete picture. In Canada food processing is considered "manufacturing". You need to look at both the producers and processors since the two are symbiotic.

Food processors in Ontario account for $32 B per year. Primary production accounts for $47B that gets you to $79 B. Around 11 % of the Ontario economy. That is about the same size as the auto sector in Ontario.