Highways in Canada

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

Also apparently AADT on I-95 north of Bangor is only 3K...

I would compare that to I-29 in North Dakota, in particular the stretch between Grand Forks and the border. It feels very empty, I have never seen anything resembling "traffic" as we tend to think of it. It's overbuilt relative to the use it gets... I can only imagine what it must have been like when it opened in the 70s.

The situation near Bangor sounds even more pronounced.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by JHikka

Perhaps in highway design but ON highways lack animal fencing in a lot of areas, no?

5 years ago, much of the northern parts of the 400 did, but they have progesed well with it.

Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere

I believe Canal Road is supposed to be closed this summer when the north canal bridge replacement work begins and never re-open.

Ontario has freeway design standards that exceed most interstates, and increasingly has fewer and fewer old legacy interchanges. Even some of the municipal freeways like the Gardiner are getting upgrades to remove substandard interchange designs in the next decade. By the time 2030 rolls around there will be very few substandard interchanges left in the province. The only ones without real plans for replacement I can think of are on the DVP.


Eastern Canada generally builds a relatively consistant freeway network in a generally similar scale to the US, even if it is to differing standards in each province. In a few years you will be able to drive from Windsor to Halifax on high quality freeways though which is not different than the US. Quebec's design standards aren't exactly excellent but there are lots of US states like that as well.

It's the western provinces which have generally lower standards (although much higher speed limits!). Far more at grade intersections, etc. BC and Manitoba are probably the worst culprits, but even in Alberta the QE still has several at grade intersections, and Highway 1 running out of Calgary eastbound is full of stoplights and intersections.

Gardnier runs out into Lakeshore Blvd.
Highway 69 turns into Regent St, and no plans of that ever changing.
Traffic lights end the divided highway section of 17 in SSM.
Highbury Ave has their freeway section end at lghts and then city streets.
Allen Rd north ends and becomes a city street.
A20 does some fun stuff in Montreal....

Those are just the ones off the top of my head.

As someone who has driven in most provinces (Sorry NL), ON has the safest design, but the lowest speed limit. NS isn't horrible, but in Halifax, it really is annoying to use them. NB seems like they follow ON, but why does a railroad crossing still exist? I like that QC has rest areas open year round. AB, SK and MB, I like that they have divided highways. I am not calling them freeways. BC really needs to up it's standard. Those one are bad.

Originally Posted by sonysnob

Animal fencing is becoming pretty common in Ontario. Most of the 407 extension is fenced, as are many northern sections of Highway 11 and 69.

The problem is that most of northern ON highways aren't fenced off. All of 11 and 17 should be fenced off, as their speed limits are 90 km/hr.

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

I don’t know if we can really consider A85 to be of high quality with a 7% downhill slope on what was possibly a new build. The SB approach to the new bridge over Rivière Verte, which should be completed soon, seems pretty steep too.

https://goo.gl/maps/YND7H81B6JNfkKb39

https://www.transports.gouv.qc.ca/fr/pro...ute-85/Pages/carrousel-autoroute-85.aspx

In the document for A85, MTQ caps the ascending grade at 5% (which is what I use for my amateur highway proposals if keeping it at 3% means too deep of a rock cut) and descending grades at 7(!)%.
(I downloaded the document 3 years ago so I wouldn’t know if it’s still online.)

I notice the same thing in the states too. Wild West indeed.

So who?

You should contact BC then.... Oh, and what about the very steep hill on highway 11 south of Powassan?

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

I would agree with that. The highway is truly stunning in it's quality, fully divided and grade separated with wide medians, long sweeping curves and no significant grades, but it's terminus is a sleepy border town of about 8,000 people (Saint Stephen).

It is Irving's "road to prosperity", designed to enhance traffic flow between Saint John and New England. Unfortunately, it terminates just across the border at a traffic circle on US-1, just north of Calais ME, and the only way to get to the interstate system is a 90 mile drive along the undulating and heavily forested "airline route" leading to Bangor ME. The Airline Route (Maine 9) is one of the most unpopulated and remote roads in the eastern US.

NB-1 from Saint John to Saint Stephen was a colossal waste of money, but is a wonderful road to drive on.

I would say that it is a good thing to do to move people better. However, maybe to fix the issue, dividing highway 7 would be a prudent thing to do next.

Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere

I just don't think it's as necessary in most of Ontario compared to NB. Deer populations are pretty low in most of Southern Ontario, which is the main safety issue, especially compared to NB, where it seems like they are absolutely friggen everywhere.

Northern Ontario has a higher density population of large mammals so it makes sense to have fencing. There just aren't a lot of wild animals trying to cross the freeways in Niagara or London.

I mean don't get me wrong fencing is useful everywhere, but it's definitely a greater need in NB than it is in Ontario.

I drove NB 1 south from Saint John once over the christmas break in the early morning (5-6amish). I passed a single vehicle on the hour long drive to Saint Stephen. In both directions. The thing is ridiculously overbuilt, it's almost hilarious.

It is very much needed in Northern ON, not because of deer, but because of moose. If I look t ths side of the highways, like the 401, 402, 403, QEW, etc in southern ON, they are all nicely fenced off. The cannot be said of our northern highways. It is only recently that parts south of Parry Sound have been fenced in.

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

Also apparently AADT on I-95 north of Bangor is only 3K...
I agree that an interstate freeway towards Calais would have been more logical though from an economic standpoint.
Ps: I just checked the map. Lol Loring A.F.B.’s actually closer to N.B.-2 if anything.
Ps: Is N.B.-2 the only Canadian freeway that runs along the border for a substantial distance? (No, the undivided-4-lane portion of Crowsnest Highway in B.C. doesn’t count as a freeway lol.)

How close is along the border? QEW does.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

I would say that it is a good thing to do to move people better. However, maybe to fix the issue, dividing highway 7 would be a prudent thing to do next.

Despite being a very popular discussion piece on the Atlantic subforum, Highway 7 lacks the AADT for full twinning. This didn't stop Route 1 twinning to Saint Stephen, of course.

With both Fredericton and Saint John growing logic would dictate that eventually a full twin of 7 would be warranted, but as of today and likely for the next ten years it isn't needed, and there doesn't appear to be as much traffic between the two as many would think. The new divided section in Welsford helped alleviate a lot of the previous issues with the route.

Originally Posted by innsertnamehere

I drove NB 1 south from Saint John once over the christmas break in the early morning (5-6amish). I passed a single vehicle on the hour long drive to Saint Stephen. In both directions. The thing is ridiculously overbuilt, it's almost hilarious.

Yes.

[esquire]

I took a closer look at NB 1 and damn, there are more interchanges on that stretch from Saint John to the border than there are in all of Manitoba outside of Winnipeg (including the Perimeter). Not saying much obviously, but still a fun fact.

[thewave46]

Originally Posted by esquire

I took a closer look at NB 1 and damn, there are more interchanges on that stretch from Saint John to the border than there are in all of Manitoba outside of Winnipeg (including the Perimeter). Not saying much obviously, but still a fun fact.

I guess the spectrum of overbuilt to underbuilt (er, value-engineered) in Canada, we can use NB to Manitoba as the endpoints.

Maybe if Manitoba had one shadowy family empire running the government like a puppeteer, the highways might be better?

[Dengler Avenue]

Originally Posted by thewave46

I guess the spectrum of overbuilt to underbuilt (er, value-engineered) in Canada, we can use NB to Manitoba as the endpoints.

Maybe if Manitoba had one shadowy family empire running the government like a puppeteer, the highways might be better?

Manitoba being the other end point? Not B.C.?
I guess B.C. has an excuse at least because building in the Cordillera isn’t for the faint-hearted.
The geology in Manitoba may not be great despite the flat terrain, however.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by manny_santos

Freeway standards in BC are terrible. Ontario's are much closer to the US Interstates.

Aside from the North Shore examples already posted, one of the most dangerous interchanges I've ever seen is on Highway 1 at Highway 13 near Aldergrove.

https://www.google.com/maps/@49.0992952,...pwsElFFpKc8d1cRHlJggA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

The first time I drove here, I almost hit a transport truck that was coming onto the freeway. Being from Ontario, I did not anticipate coming across an onramp with absolutely no acceleration lane. The only other place I've driven with freeway onramps like this was in Mexico.
.

There are a number of very short on and off ramps on Montreal island autoroutes. Most are on stretches with 70 kmh speed limits though not all of them. And of course in Montreal on 70 kmh autoroute stretches most people drive around 100 anyway.

They are slowly being replaced or improved when possible but of course in many locations there isn't much room to work with.

[sonysnob]

I very much dislike the 70km/h speed limit of many Montreal Autoroutes. I find the speed differential on the urban freeways of Montreal to be so much more significant that in any other region of Canada.

In my experience, it's not at all rare to find someone doing 75km/h in the left lane of the freeway being undertaken by someone doing 110km/h in the centre lane, with another vehicle doing 90km/h in the right lane. I actually really enjoy driving around Montreal, but that is definitely my least favourite attribute of Montreal's freeway network.

That and the expansion joints.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

I don’t know if we can really consider A85 to be of high quality with a 7% downhill slope on what was possibly a new build. The SB approach to the new bridge over Rivière Verte, which should be completed soon, seems pretty steep too.

https://goo.gl/maps/YND7H81B6JNfkKb39

https://www.transports.gouv.qc.ca/fr/pro...ute-85/Pages/carrousel-autoroute-85.aspx

In the document for A85, MTQ caps the ascending grade at 5% (which is what I use for my amateur highway proposals if keeping it at 3% means too deep of a rock cut) and descending grades at 7(!)%.
(I downloaded the document 3 years ago so I wouldn’t know if it’s still online.)

I find the new sections of A85 to be a handsome highway and pleasant to drive. In many areas it's pretty cool how it's woven in tightly to the landscape and townscape, and sometimes almost feels like expressways one sees in Europe.

Though I'd agree with Loco101 that in terms of design (curves, approaches, sightlines, grades, width, and just general airiness) it's a step below new highways in Ontario.

A new expressway in Ontario is just about the easiest, safest, most stress-free place to drive that you will find.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I find the new sections of A85 to be a handsome highway and pleasant to drive. In many areas it's pretty cool how it's woven in tightly to the landscape and townscape, and sometimes almost feels like expressways one sees in Europe.

I would agree. The new section of A85 is a real treat to drive on, and is visually interesting too. The section around Lac Temiscouata is a particular joy.

[Dengler Avenue]

I find the new sections of A85 to be a handsome highway and pleasant to drive. In many areas it's pretty cool how it's woven in tightly to the landscape and townscape, and sometimes almost feels like expressways one sees in Europe.

I agree, and in some strange sense, this is highly unusual for Quebec. I mean, A85 has a very different feel than, say, A40 (through MTL) or A50 (all of it).
I guess I find it unusual because A85 doesn’t skip/bypass any of the town that 185 used to go through.
Ps: Funny enough, there isn’t much going on between Rivière Verte and Vauban, otherwise.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

I agree, and in some strange sense, this is highly unusual for Quebec. I mean, A85 has a very different feel than, say, A40 (through MTL) or A50 (all of it).
I guess I find it unusual because A85 doesn’t skip/bypass any of the town that 185 used to go through.
Ps: Funny enough, there isn’t much going on between Rivière Verte and Vauban, otherwise.

Quebec autoroutes, unless there is no other choice, tend to be very "expansive". This is true of almost all of the A-20. Except as I said, for the stretches where there is no other choice.

On the A-85, there are a few stretches through the towns that are in a kind of "ditch", with short access ramps right into the town, and tight urban-style overhead signage.

For a second it feels like you're almost in a city of 50-100,000 people, but these places only have about 3,000 people.

[Dengler Avenue]

On the A-85, there are a few stretches through the towns that are in a kind of "ditch", with short access ramps right into the town, and tight urban-style overhead signage

Yea I was gonna say, the interchanges from Saint Louis du Ha!Ha! to Dégelis are pretty nonstandard, enough to drive engineers in MTO (not MTQ!) crazy.
It always gives me the impression that MTQ just wanna be cheap with A85. (Then again, the same can probably be said about A50 <in the long term> and 175.)
I think the new stretches will have something like that for Saint Honoré too.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

Yea I was gonna say, the interchanges from Saint Louis du Ha!Ha! to Dégelis are pretty nonstandard, enough to drive engineers in MTO (not MTQ!) crazy.
It always gives me the impression that MTQ just wanna be cheap with A85.
I think the new stretches will have something like that for Saint Honoré too.

I actually think they look pretty cool for a highway in a very rural part of Canada, but in terms of overall ''driver comfort'' they wouldn't get an optimal rating from Ontario that's for sure.

[Dengler Avenue]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I actually think they look pretty cool for a highway in a very rural part of Canada, but in terms of overall ''driver comfort'' they wouldn't get an optimal rating from Ontario that's for sure.

Don’t get me wrong, I enjoy A85 too. But just like what @le_calmar said, once you examine the details, things may be down by a notch.
At least I’ve never heard news of trucks getting stuck at the bottom of 5% climbs or losing their brakes on a 7% downhill, so that’s good.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

Don’t get me wrong, I enjoy A85 too. But just like what @le_calmar said, once you examine the details, things may be down by a notch.
At least I’ve never heard news of trucks getting stuck at the bottom of 5% climbs or losing their brakes on a 7% downhill, so that’s good.

I find that MTO and FHWA (Interstate) standards and practices are largely topography-blind and setting indifferent. As a matter of principle, they ignore the landscape and even flatten it out and harmonize it to fit the design standard when possible.

[Dengler Avenue]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I find that MTO and FHWA (Interstate) standards and practices are largely topography-blind and setting indifferent. As a matter of principle, they ignore the landscape and even flatten it out and harmonize it to fit the design standard when possible.

I’m sure @wave46 wonders the same thing too.
I suspect that it’s because, so far, in Ontario, we haven’t yet encountered anything crazy like 175 immediately north of l’Étape (where making space for the SB lanes required a 60-m cut). That said, we’re still at the stage where blasting a bit more to adhere to the standard doesn’t incur significant additional cost. Of course, once we need to make a 30-m deep cut in Canadian Shield to even cap the slope at 5%, then we’re talking.

I’m really curious what @sonysnob thinks since he may be the only road engineer in this section.

[thewave46]

Originally Posted by sonysnob

I very much dislike the 70km/h speed limit of many Montreal Autoroutes. I find the speed differential on the urban freeways of Montreal to be so much more significant that in any other region of Canada.

In my experience, it's not at all rare to find someone doing 75km/h in the left lane of the freeway being undertaken by someone doing 110km/h in the centre lane, with another vehicle doing 90km/h in the right lane. I actually really enjoy driving around Montreal, but that is definitely my least favourite attribute of Montreal's freeway network.

That and the expansion joints.

I'm trying to think of places in Montreal that have 70km/h limits. The Decarie? The 720? I don't think those were engineered for much more than 90 km/h, so I can see the purpose of the low limits. As an Ontario driver, I generally don't speed much in Quebec, for uh, reasons. North American lane discipline is lacking too. Let the locals push the limit of police attention.

I've seen this sort of thing on the US Interstate network too - 45 mph limits on I-81 through Syracuse or a bunch of NYC Interstates. There's just old sections of highways in major cities that were real tight squeezes before 100 km/h+ was the expected design speed.

I wonder what would have happened if Montreal's freeway network had bloomed later than in the '50s and '60s. Would it have done an Ontario and mostly focused on greenfield superfreeways? Toronto was saved from a horrible freeway network by being a late bloomer.

[Dengler Avenue]

Originally Posted by thewave46

I'm trying to think of places in Montreal that have 70km/h limits. The Decarie? The 720? I don't think those were engineered for much more than 90 km/h, so I can see the purpose of the low limits. As an Ontario driver, I generally don't speed much in Quebec, for uh, reasons. North American lane discipline is lacking too. Let the locals push the limit of police attention.

I've seen this sort of thing on the US Interstate network too - 45 mph limits on I-81 through Syracuse or a bunch of NYC Interstates. There's just old sections of highways in major cities that were real tight squeezes before 100 km/h+ was the expected design speed.

I wonder what would have happened if Montreal's freeway network had bloomed later than in the '50s and '60s. Would it have done an Ontario and mostly focused on greenfield superfreeways? Toronto was saved from a horrible freeway network by being a late bloomer.

A5 through Gatineau and A973 through Quebec has a speed limit of 70 kph as well.
Oh yea, when I went 84 kph on the left lane on Metropolitan Freeway, I got tailed too.

[thewave46]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I find the new sections of A85 to be a handsome highway and pleasant to drive. In many areas it's pretty cool how it's woven in tightly to the landscape and townscape, and sometimes almost feels like expressways one sees in Europe.

Though I'd agree with Loco101 that in terms of design (curves, approaches, sightlines, grades, width, and just general airiness) it's a step below new highways in Ontario.

A new expressway in Ontario is just about the easiest, safest, most stress-free place to drive that you will find.

I'd argue that Ontario overdoes new rural freeway design. It's one thing to overbuild near major cities or on flat terrain, but certain highways (thinking of the new Highway 69 sections near Sudbury) are just hugely overdone. Big, fancy interchanges for podunk sideroads. Massive wide rock cuts for expansions that'll never happen. Grades of less than 3% (I think?) for super-low traffic volumes.

I think there was a middle ground somewhere in there with that particular route but as mentioned, modern standards tend to 'best design' with cost/terrain being a secondary concern.