VIA Rail

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

Honestly, the whole "won't somebody think of Kingston?!?" angle doesn't make any sense - especially considering that Kingston council endorsed the proposal.

swimmer_spe's specialty is telling communities what they need.

The Kingston hub proposal is a whole lot better for Kingston than the current service schedule, which utterly fails to service ex-urban commuters from Kingston. Anybody who has actually spent time in Kingston and taken the train from there knows this. The only reason Kingston has the ridership it does today are the universities and colleges there. Students aren't schedule sensitive.

They are right to trade a few trains for service that actually originates in Kingston and is timed for travelers departing Kingston. I am willing to bet that ridership will be higher, despite fewer trains, with the Kingston hub.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

The interesting thing about the current corridor route through Kingston is that the kind of frequency proposed by HFR would allow a greater mix of local and express trains (which already exist), meaning that many trains would not be stopping at intermediate stations such as Kingston. I would argue that there should be many express trains because it isn't reasonable to inconvenience everyone traveling between the major centres with lots of unnecessary delays. So Kingston wouldn't necessarily get any more trains than they currently do. And even if Kingston's service was improved, Peterborough, a city not all that much smaller, would continue to not get any service. Yet with the HFR plan, Peterborough would be served and Kingston's service would improve due to better scheduling.

Honestly, the whole "won't somebody think of Kingston?!?" angle doesn't make any sense - especially considering that Kingston council endorsed the proposal.

I am thinking that Kingston knew it would be a hard argument to fight for current frequency in their city. So, they are accepting the reduction in service. No other city has more boardings than their population in Canada besides Kingston. I have to think it's the combination of their location between Toronto, Ottawa and Montreal.

It is good to see Peterborough get rail service though.

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

If the line is "tens of billions" as you have asserted (which is more than the last HSR estimate for Toronto-Ottawa-Montreal), I'll stop posting in this thread. If the HFR estimate comes in at under $10B, would you do the same?

4.4 billion Is the most recent number I can find. It is a little over 400km, and 75mph is about 120 km/hr. So, if they cannot get the route down to at least 4 hours on opening day, then they are not achieving anything with that 4.4 billion spent beyond opening another line. I feel at least 10-20 billion will be needed to straighten out that section to get the average speed over 75mph along the entire route. I look forward to being proved wrong.

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

You're well past skeptical.

I have a healthy skepticism with regards to anything the governments will say they will do. In my experience with the RCN, I have come to the conclusion that it can be canceled at any point.

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Who said anything about lower use. I said they would drop in rankings as other stations saw ridership skyrocket. If HFR doubles traffic, that means there will be a hell of a lot of ridership at HFR stations and Kingston goes down the list, rendering another one of your talking points useless.

Belleville, Cobourg, and Oshawa all have high numbers and will be bypassed. Fallowfield station is about the only one that stands to increase, and they are already decently high. Smith Falls is low, but could come up.

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Source where I said that? I have repeatedly suggested that the Canadian should be daily. I have repeatedly suggested the Ocean should be daily. I have argued for terminating the Ocean at Quebec City and investing in that corridor to allow for multiple dailies. And I have strongly advocated for Calgary-Edmonton, arguing that a JPO should be commenced to study it in-depth immediately.

Says a lot that you have to lie about my positions to defend your own.

Weren't you one of the ones saying that Via should be effectively shut down? Give everything to the provinces to run? If not, my mistake.

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Bullshit. Your FUD on HFR gives you away. "I want to improve it all. But I'm just sooooo skeptical." Fuck off with that nonsense. You think we can't see through it?

I am skeptical because Via has cut, cut, cut. Their fleet outside the Corridor is older than most of us on here, yet they have no public plan for replacement much less an expansion of the fleet. Drive it into the ground walk away and say it isn't financially practical to keep it. It has been done before, and it could be done again. The Dayliner has that fate, and unless something is done soon, the line will be too far gone.

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

And Calgary-Edmonton, and Quebec City-Halifax. Etc. I care about providing service where investment delivers return and the most riders can benefit. You're just shy of advocating High Speed Rail between Whitehorse and Yellowknife with a special dining car for Moose.

I actually don't see a reason for HSR outside of between Toronto-Ottawa-Montreal. Anything more than that for HSR, even C-E is not even a piep dream.

I have pushed for:
Daily on all existing service.
Restoring the CP Canadian route. Jog it over to SSM.
Regular service on C-E
Regular service between Regina and Saskatoon.
Daily service on the old Gull.

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

swimmer_spe's specialty is telling communities what they need.

The Kingston hub proposal is a whole lot better for Kingston than the current service schedule, which utterly fails to service ex-urban commuters from Kingston. Anybody who has actually spent time in Kingston and taken the train from there knows this. The only reason Kingston has the ridership it does today are the universities and colleges there. Students aren't schedule sensitive.

They are right to trade a few trains for service that actually originates in Kingston and is timed for travelers departing Kingston. I am willing to bet that ridership will be higher, despite fewer trains, with the Kingston hub.

If I am that good, maybe I should become a politician. I am never going to be a fan of reduction in service. EVER!

I do like how you look down on students. It fits the profile I have of you even more. Next you'll be screaming at them to get off your lawn.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

4.4 billion Is the most recent number I can find. ...I look forward to being proved wrong.

And yet you said "tens of billions" earlier.

I'll make the offer again. If you're wrong, will you quit this thread? I'm ready to commit to this. Why aren't you?

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Belleville, Cobourg, and Oshawa all have high numbers and will be bypassed.

They should be bypassed by HFR. You seem to have a difficult time comprehending that a service meant to connect the major metros shouldn't be stopping at town of 20k.

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Weren't you one of the ones saying that Via should be effectively shut down? Give everything to the provinces to run? If not, my mistake.

Giving the province to run them doesn't equal cuts. More of your comprehension issues.

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

I actually don't see a reason for HSR outside of between Toronto-Ottawa-Montreal. Anything more than that for HSR, even C-E is not even a piep dream.

No HSR to the largest airport in the country and the largest city in Southwestern Ontario or the one across from an American metro of millions? Yet we need to fight for two trains across the Prairies daily?

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

If I am that good, maybe I should become a politician. I am never going to be a fan of reduction in service. EVER!

Indeed. We'd probably get hallway healthcare and have troops begging for food while trains run empty. Don't worry. Nobody doubts your rail fandom and commitment to rail service to empty towns at all cost.

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

I do like how you look down on students. It fits the profile I have of you even more. Next you'll be screaming at them to get off your lawn.

Yeah. Saying students are not schedule sensitive is a real gotchya.

What next? You're gonna say I hate rich people because I think they can afford business class?

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

And yet you said "tens of billions" earlier.

I'll make the offer again. If you're wrong, will you quit this thread? I'm ready to commit to this. Why aren't you?

I will apologize, like I do when proven wrong. I did not ask, nor do I expect you to leave if you are wrong. That is not how intelligent conversations with adults work. Itt is how little children and right wing nut jobs act when they are proven wrong. It i also known as a tantrum.

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

They should be bypassed by HFR. You seem to have a difficult time comprehending that a service meant to connect the major metros shouldn't be stopping at town of 20k.

You are referring to Cobourg.
What is the population of Oshawa?
What is the population of Belleville?

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Giving the province to run them doesn't equal cuts. More of your comprehension issues.

Given that the province you want to give them does have a track record of cutting service to their 2 other rail networks to save money, I don't see how I lack comprehension.

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

No HSR to the largest airport in the country and the largest city in Southwestern Ontario or the one across from an American metro of millions? Yet we need to fight for two trains across the Prairies daily?

When saying Toronto, I do not mean downtown and that's it. I figure there would be one or 2 in the outskirts. A stop at YYZ is realistic.

I think you mean London. If we assume that the train would do the entire length, I just don't see the need for the frequency there.

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Indeed. We'd probably get hallway healthcare and have troops begging for food while trains run empty. Don't worry. Nobody doubts that rail fandom and commitment to rail service to empty towns at all cost.

So funny you say that. Pre pandemic, the local hospital was doing hallway medicine. It was interesting that someone had to ask a museum for a part they have o that we can fix something to get home. Any other comparisons you want to make that will be surprisingly true?

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Yeah. Saying students are not schedule sensitive is real gotchya.

What next? You're gonna say I hate rich people because I think they can afford business class?

Wait, you can't afford business class? Ok, so, you are no longer the cranky old man I thought you were. Does your mom give you a curfew to be on the "magic box"?

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

I will apologize, like I do when proven wrong. I did not ask, nor do I expect you to leave if you are wrong. That is not how intelligent conversations with adults work. Itt is how little children and right wing nut jobs act when they are proven wrong.

Nah. The kind of evasive behaviour you're putting on here is what I see from my kids when they're called out.

You want to throw out all kinds of nonsense and bombast. But then evade any responsibility for your assertions because like a child you don't want to be held responsible. Says it all about you.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Nah. The kind of evasive behaviour you're putting on here is what I see from my kids when they're called out.

You want to throw out all kinds of nonsense and bombast. But then evade any responsibility for your assertions because like a child you don't want to be held responsible. Says it all about you.

Fine, fine fine. You can leave if I am wrong.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Fine, fine fine. You can leave if I am wrong.

I'd prefer if you man up and leave so that we can discuss grown up things around here instead of your choo choo fantasies.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

I'd prefer if you man up and leave so that we can discuss grown up things around here instead of your choo choo fantasies.

There seems to be more people like me who want better service, not just for the Corridor.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

There seems to be more people like me who want better service, not just for the Corridor.

Why lie about wanting improvements for the Corridor? Really you want shit service for the big cities that won't even be competitive with driving and gold plated service for towns like Coburg and Belleville. Because choo choo is more important than actually getting the most passengers to their destination quickly.

As for wanting improvements for the rest of Canada? Yes. There's a few others who are willing to bankrupt government running trains to Flin Flon. Don't assume nobody challenging the lot of you trolling here somehow constitutes agreement. The rest are just tired of your shit.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Why lie about wanting improvements for the Corridor? Really you want shit service for the big cities that won't even be competitive with driving and gold plated service for towns like Coburg and Belleville. Because choo choo is more important than actually getting the most passengers to their destination quickly.

As for wanting improvements for the rest of Canada? Yes. There's a few others who are willing to bankrupt government running trains to Flin Flon. Don't assume nobody challenging the lot of you trolling here somehow constitutes agreement. The rest are just tired of your shit.

When will you be tired? I got all the time in the world.

I don't care much about the Corridor because it has lots of service and is only going to keep getting more and better service. I don't feel advocating for more service there is worth my effort. Getting a train that currently goes near me to be daily is worth my effort. Getting service that was shut down to save money, even though it was the one getting less of a subsidy is worth my effort. Standing with those that want other services that make sense is worth my effort. Governments provide services that usually don't pay for themselves, but are worth it to the citizens it represents. My taxes do not cover the full cost of them plowing my road, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't plow it. My taxes pay for the police to patrol and ticket people, but the ticketing doesn't cover the cost of the police being out there. That doesn't mean they shouldn't be out there.

Empty trains is a symptom, not a problem. It means that the train has too many cars, or too high of price, or a horrible schedule. Pick one and fix it.

[Urban_Sky]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Getting service that was shut down to save money, even though it was the one getting less of a subsidy is worth my effort.

Some other participants in this thread have already pointed out that Micheal Artindale is completely economically illiterate, but just in case someone wants to remind him that repeating a falsehood a hundred times doesn't make it less of a lie:


Montreal/Toronto-Vancouver ("The Canadian")
Passenger count in 1988: 545,010
Subsidy per passenger in 1988: $199.10
Subsidy need in 1988: 545,010 * $199.10 = $108,511,491

Winnipeg-Edmonton-Vancouver ("Super-Continental")
Passenger count in 1988: 176,418
Subsidy per passenger in 1988: $283.80
Subsidy need in 1988: 176,418 * $283.80 = $50,067,428

The source for above figures is here:

https://urbantoronto.ca/forum/threads/on...ransportation.18652/page-66#post-1658522 (the link to the source is dead, but the table is there)

It is of course not entirely fair to compare the Canadian and the Super-Continental directly, but even after adding WNPG-CAPR to the CN services and SUDB-WHTR to the CP services, the subsidy for the CP services is still almost 50% higher:


Also, if anyone wants to compare the subsidy figures with those in the 2019 VIA Rail Annual Report, the conversion factor is 1.9263...

[Curmudgeon]

A comparison between two transcontinental routes:

Amtrak Empire Builder

Chicago to Seattle (or Portland), we'll use the Seattle leg as that is more patronised.

2,206 miles, 46 hours, rail average speed (RAS) 48 mph.

Chicago - Saint Paul 417 mi., , 7h48m, RAS 53 mph
Saint Paul - Shelby, Mont., 1054 mi., 19h57m, RAS 53 mph
Shelby - Seattle, 735 mi., 17h03m, RAS 43 mph

VIA Canadian

Toronto to Vancouver

2,775 miles, 97h15m, RAS 28 mph

Toronto - Capreol 276 mi., , 7h37m, RAS 36 mph
Capreol - Winnipeg, 931 mi., 26h38m, RAS 35 mph
Winnipeg - Edmonton, 794 mi., 24h20m, RAS 33 mph
Edmonton -Vancouver, 774 mi., 33h00m, RAS 23 mph

So whether the Canadian should run daily, or six days per week, or two days per week, or not at all, the question that everyone should ask is why the service on the Canadian is so inferior to the a similar train in the United States? Is the answer that we are a second-rate country that should just forget about passenger rail? I don't know, but if that's what it is, that's what it is, and move on with it. But I don't believe it for a minute.

If RAS were roughly similar, Toronto-Capreol would be 5 1/2 hours, Capreol-Winnipeg would be 19 hours, Winnipeg-Edmonton would be 15 hours, and Edmonton-Vancouver 18 hours. so including stops, the entire journey would come in at just over 60 hours, a 36 hour reduction.

And let's cut the crap here. No one has ever suggested that we "bankrupt government" by running trains to Flin Flon, which doesn't even have passenger rail service, and no one has suggested that there be a daily Winnipeg-Regina run, if there were daily westbound departures from Toronto and Montreal, combining at Sudbury Jct., Regina would be served only on alternate days, perhaps three days per week.

As for subsidies, I'll say it again. Many, many things are subsidized. Torontonians only seem to understand local Toronto issues, so clueless about the rest of the country, so let's put it this way, many TTC routes in Scarborough or Etobicoke, or the Sheppard Line, are subsidized by the two heavily used subway lines and most of the streetcar lines. That 's the way things work. So if Corridor services, esp. Toronto-Montreal were upgraded to HSR, and honestly, what the duck is the use of HFR if the trains are still painfully slow and not competitive with road and air travel? The fastest runs on that route needs to come in at 3 1/2 hours, not a minute more, and even quicker if the upgrade went beyond a 125 mph capability, and even a "railfan" like me is not calling for that. A couple of early morning and late afternoon departures (St. Lawrence Limited?) would be the flagship trains of VIA's network and might run non-stop, in which case they would almost certainly be a bit quicker than 3h30m. Railway travel would dominate the passenger market between those cities. For premium first services, the fares would be comparable to airline fares in business class, which are currently $450+ one way, and why shouldn't they be? The train will be faster, more comfortable and more convenient than flying.

Wait a minute the Can't Dos will say, it's only a 1h15m flight! Yep, but if I'm attending a meeting on Bay Street and going back to Montreal afterwards, I've got to get to Pearson, arrive an hour before the flight, then take the flight, then deplane, and then get to downtown Montreal. Add that up and you're at least at 3 1/2 hours and have had a FAR more stressful trip that someone who has sat comfortably on a train. And trains have a better on-time performance, at least they do elsewhere. And it would be nearly twice as fast as driving, and more than twice as fast as by bus, which notwithstanding the length of journey, is simply awful, and would never attract business travellers.

It's called investing in infrastructure. That's what real countries do.

[Curmudgeon]

Originally Posted by Urban_Sky

Probably, if you can be bothered to specify which study or proposal you are referring to...

Simply to a post above, which suggests a Calgary-Edmonton run would take 3 hours, which is the same as driving. That's conventional rail speeds. Don't even bother building it then.

[Urban_Sky]

Originally Posted by Curmudgeon

It's called investing in infrastructure. That's what real countries do.

It's called research and gaining the relevant facts expertise required to understand a problem and identify potentially workable solutions. That's what real experts do rather than vomiting uninformed opinions as supposedly viable proposals into a random internet forum...

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by Curmudgeon

Wait a minute the Can't Dos will say, it's only a 1h15m flight! Yep, but if I'm attending a meeting on Bay Street and going back to Montreal afterwards, I've got to get to Pearson, arrive an hour before the flight, then take the flight, then deplane, and then get to downtown Montreal. Add that up and you're at least at 3 1/2 hours and have had a FAR more stressful trip that someone who has sat comfortably on a train. And trains have a better on-time performance, at least they do elsewhere. And it would be nearly twice as fast as driving, and more than twice as fast as by bus, which notwithstanding the length of journey, is simply awful, and would never attract business travellers.

It's called investing in infrastructure. That's what real countries do.

The Island airport is 20 minutes by streetcar from Union Station. You can usually arrive about 40 minutes before the flight if you aren’t checking bags. Montreal to downtown is a challenge but the REM should get it down to 20 minutes.

[Curmudgeon]

Originally Posted by Urban_Sky

It's called research and gaining the relevant facts expertise required to understand a problem and identify potentially workable solutions. That's what real experts do rather than vomiting uninformed opinions as supposedly viable proposals into a random internet forum...

Where are your relevant facts? Beyond saying can't do this, can't do that. I've seen none. I've seen no argument, no refutation, nothing. As for expertise, I'm wondering if you've ever been on an intercity train. I suppose you didn't know either that the Toronto-Montreal route had faster service in the 1970s. You offer no knowledge of railway travel or systems in other countries. You offer no proposals, no ideas, to improve VIA's service. If you don't like random internet forums about passenger rail travel in Canada, then go elsewhere. You offer nothing anyways but vapid, scripted and negative commentary.

[Urban_Sky]

Originally Posted by Curmudgeon

Simply to a post above, which suggests a Calgary-Edmonton run would take 3 hours, which is the same as driving. That's conventional rail speeds. Don't even bother building it then.

Depending on how much funding potential investors are willing (and able) to provide, any travel time between five and (with Maglev technology) one hour is feasible. Therefore, I can't answer you any specific questions unless they refer to a specific proposal for which an approximate route and cost estimates exist...

[Urban_Sky]

Originally Posted by Curmudgeon

Where are your relevant facts? Beyond saying can't do this, can't do that. I've seen none. I've seen no argument, no refutation, nothing. As for expertise, I'm wondering if you've ever been on an intercity train. I suppose you didn't know either that the Toronto-Montreal route had faster service in the 1970s. You offer no knowledge of railway travel or systems in other countries. You offer no proposals, no ideas, to improve VIA's service. If you don't like random internet forums about passenger rail travel in Canada, then go elsewhere. You offer nothing anyways but vapid, scripted and negative commentary.

Even if reading up just a few pages in this thread prior to your sudden arrival apparently already exceeds the amount of research effort you are willing to invest, you are still literally three mouse clicks away from my professional credentials...

[Curmudgeon]

Originally Posted by acottawa

The Island airport is 20 minutes by streetcar from Union Station. You can usually arrive about 40 minutes before the flight if you aren’t checking bags. Montreal to downtown is a challenge but the REM should get it down to 20 minutes.

I still say a 3 1/2 rail journey is the more attractive option even if in your example the A to B journey comes in at 3 hours, or just a bit quicker.

It's marginally quicker to go from Central London to Edinburgh by air in comparison the fastest Flying Scotsman, but the railway completely dominates that market. The idea is to dramatically increase the market share. Railways have a marked advantage on trips at or below about 4 hours.

[Curmudgeon]

Originally Posted by Urban_Sky

Even if reading up just a few pages in this thread prior to your sudden arrival apparently already exceeds the amount of research effort you are willing to invest, you are still literally three mouse clicks away from my professional credentials...

Whatever these credentials are, and if there are any at all, have no relation to passenger rail travel or systems. Your main issue appears to be that I arrived on this thread after you, an extreme example of pettiness. You don't have to read my posts and I would ask that you do not reply to them again. You're too negative for me and offer nothing interesting.