VIA Rail

[Curmudgeon]

Originally Posted by roger1818

Not true. According to VIA Rail's Summary 2020-2024 Corporate Plan (pg.23):


But VIA doesn't even have enough equipment to bring back 3 trains a week between Edmonton and Vancouver, let alone daily service (or add new routes).



How do you propose doing that without constraining freight rail services (and thus putting hundreds (if not thousands) of more trucks on the road)? All I hear is "VIA should do X" without any feasible solutions.

The reality is VIA is constrained by the budget they are given from the Federal and Provincial governments (hint, the latter don't give VIA any money). If you want better passenger rail service, lobby the government (or give VIA the money from your own bank account); don't complain on a forum which isn't read by any politicians.

Funny how the trains were faster a century ago, and there were freight trains then too! Even more as Canada had a more east-west economy. The fleet is aging so if it needs replacement and expansion, and naturally it will eventually, spend the money and build new a fleet then. The existing stock is designed for 80 mph. Would create a lot of jobs. Wasn't too much of a problem to spend $1 billion on a G20 summit. Doesn't seem to be too much to blow $1 billion/year on a useless TV network that few watch (Radio is essential though for northern communities). And no more subsidies for professional sport either.

I don't want to pay school taxes for poor results. Maybe that money should go to VIA? Honestly, absurd. And if you don't want to talk about improving rail service in this country, don't read the thread. The thread is ALL things VIA, not just griping how some routes receive subsidy (and they are quite small! and are well worth it) so should be eliminated.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by SIGSEGV

If I may interject as a non-Canadian:

1) For Calgary, the obvious places where intercity rail service make sense are to Red Deer/Edmonton (duh), Lethbridge, and Lake Louise. I've been on the Calgary to Lake Louise bus (attending a conference at Lake Louise) and while it was ok (and crowded/relatively frequent), a train trip would be more comfortable/scenic, even if it wasn't faster than the bus. It could have ski racks, space for hiking gear, etc, and obviously would link up with shuttles. It's unlikely that it would make sense to extend such a train to Kamloops/Vancouver though, even though it's tempting.

2) The next logical place to connect Winnipeg to is not Regina/Calgary, but probably cooperating with Amtrak to get a Winnipeg/Grand Forks/Fargo/Minneapolis/(Chicago?) train running. Amtrak already operates the Empire Builder between Grand Forks and Chicago, so it would be relatively little additional trackage (would probably require restoring some now abandoned track though). Even though it would likely be an 8-hour train ride to MSP, flights between YPG and MSP seem to be ridiculously expensive (though still popular). If the train were significantly cheaper it could probably do well.

Both are great ideas. Your comment about comfort is something way too many on here forget. The best selling vehicle is a truck, not the cheapest car. That is due to comfort, not utilitarian thinking. Planes are used more than buses because they are faster, not more comfortable.

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

The question is why bother with an agency that has so many other priorities and is subject to political pressures forcing them to downplay or underinvest in the Corridor.

Integration also means what GO and Exo could run parallel services on the same track. So a regular all-stop service from Toronto to London. And then an express limited stop higher speed service that runs say once an hour. And they could build it all without having to worry about multiple agencies conflicting for track slots.

You really don't know the history of GO, do you.
For the Barrie Line on September 7, 1982, service only extended to Bradford. On September 17, 1990, the line was extended to Barrie, but was again cut back to Bradford on July 5, 1993.
On the Kitchener line, service was extended beyond Georgetown to Guelph on October 29, 1990, but was again cut back to Georgetown on July 2, 1993

So, tell me how this could happen with Canada's busiest network? Might it have something to do with being subjected to the very same problems that Via can face, and faces more often?

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Except that this is not just about flying. What proportion of travelers to London, Kitchener, Kingston and Peterborough fly to those cities? They would all massively benefit from a more regionally focused rail service, which VIA can't provide.

Hopefully, Queen's Park grows a pair someday and figures out that it can do better cooperating with Quebec.

Where will the money come from for HSR? Ontario is broke. It has been for decades.

Originally Posted by milomilo

GO Transit probably has more of a mandate because it is more useful and thus more valuable to voters, same as how the respective transit agencies in Edmonton, Saskatoon and Winnipeg are more valuable to their residents than VIA is. As you say, those agencies are also more focused.

It's why I agree with the consensus that HFR is VIA's best shot at long term relevance. If they pull it off, then they will have a core of users that like the service, want more of it and be upset if funding is cut.

If HFR fails, then GO and others could inevitably fill the vacuum and VIA will become irrelevant. I think this would be a failure though and you'd end up with inter provincial squabbles over service and funding. And of course the rest of the country would have no chance, although realistically there is little need for interprovincial rail travel west of Ontario.

The problem is jurisdiction. You cannot just cross provincial lines. In an emergency, such as people being transferred from MB to ON hospitals, yes, but it is not a regular thing. To regularly cross the border, you need the legal framework in place. That would be a deterrent for ON or QC to do it under their commute lines. The only possible way might be through the Ontario Northland. Due to operating a section of a line in QC, they have a subsidiary that legally can cross it; the Nipissing Central Railway. This is a mess of red tape that Via can ignore as they already are a national railway.

Originally Posted by thewave46

GO Transit seems to have a stronger mandate for its services than VIA. Maybe because it's more focused? I wonder if expanding its writ to include from Windsor to Ottawa might actually give service a boost. That, combined with Ontario Northland, provides a comprehensive travel network through the province.

If VIA still wants to run a train across the country, let them run one without all the hassle of trying to be a regional service. Just make life easier for someone coming from London (or wherever) and going to Toronto by way of giving control to the province instead of a distant federal government. It might also improve GO's image as a truly Ontario-based network, instead of a GTA-centric thing.

Eventually cooperate with Quebec and voila! A useful inter-region transport option.

I can see GO being extended to London and Kingston. I can see adding more trips to the weekday rush to those places, much like they have done with Niagara Falls. Longer distances, I don't see. The bilevles were tested on the ONR line to test their viability for long distance use. It did not go well, and were brought back down to the GTA. That would mean that they would have to look for a long distance fleet.... that Via already will have and has good knowledge on those needs. It would be like thinking the TTC could run long distance buses because they operate so many buses. They could, but the learning curve would be steep and full of failures. Unless that i what you want - Failure.

Originally Posted by esquire

Just a couple of notes: it would be tough to get Winnipeggers heading down to Minneapolis out of their cars. It is a long but relatively easy drive and driving gives you the benefit of having a car in MSP which is pretty much a necessity... MSP is not the kind of town where you can easily get around without a car like NYC or even Chicago. It's the same going the other way, I think Minnesotans heading north would be inclined to take their cars with them.

You are correct that DL's fares on YWG-MSP are very high... it's funny, but you can often fly to another DL hub like ATL via MSP for less than just flying to MSP itself. YWG-MSP is basically the domain of business travelers, unless they're connecting to somewhere else.

Tracks between Winnipeg and Fargo are secondary lines which would probably have some impact on operating speed.

Winnipeg-Minneapolis trains haven't operated since the late 60s and trains basically ceased being a mainstream form of transportation in Winnipeg with the 1990 VIA cuts, so it would be really tough to get people into the habit of taking the train again. Perhaps Minnesotans might be a bit more used to the idea?

This isn't to say that it couldn't be done, just that it would be very difficult.

If it were easy, it would already be done. Imagine one day wanting to go to Toronto from Winnipeg and not wanting to go through days of bush..... Take the Amtrak to Chicago, transfer and take the Amtrak to Toronto.

Originally Posted by Curmudgeon

Historically there were three trains up to Winnipeg from the Twin Cities. The track remains from two of the old routes, the old GNR route via Crookston, Minn. and Hallock to Canada and also the Soo Line/CPR route via Thief River Falls, Minn. and following US 59 to Canada. The track has been removed at St. Thomas, N.D. on the old NP route from Grand Forks up through Grafton.

I believe there is demand for a second Empire Builder service from Chicago to the Twin Cities, esp. an overnight service in both directions to supplement the existing daytime service. That train would serve both Saint Paul and Minneapolis early in the morning, attracting business travellers, and continue west via Fargo and Grand Forks as a daytime train after leaving some of the sleepers at Saint Paul. A daytime train would see good patronage from St. Cloud, Fargo and Grand Forks. In the summer months it would even see high ridership to/from Detroit Lakes. Currently the train rolls through Fargo and Grand Forks in both directions in the middle of the night.

The most logical existing route using current track would be to cut back from Grand Forks to Crookston and then up to Winnipeg. The idea though for the Midwest Rail Initiative (aka Chicago Hub) is to implement near high-speed service (110 mph) for routes in the region. From Grand Forks Amtrak depot to Winnipeg-Union Station is about 140 miles so may make sense just to construct modern track and signalling on that portion to avoid potential service delays esp. around the St. Vincent (Pembina)/Emerson border crossing. Trains could then run non-stop from Grand Forks to Winnipeg in 90-105 minutes. Both U.S. and Canadian customs would be in Winnipeg as it is for air travel. With near high speed service the run to/from the Twin Cities could be achieved in 5 1/2 to 6 hours.

I like the names Red River Limited or Northern Lights, though I think the latter might be used if rail service is re-established between the Twin Cities and Duluth.

As for airfares between YWG and MSP they have always been extortionate for the under 400 mile route as the crow flies. This is because Delta has a monopoly and Air Canada wants to funnel passengers connecting to international through the nightmare airport that is Toronto. That place can't deal with even a few inches of snow so always delays in the winter. It is usually cheaper to travel to an international destination connecting in MSP than simply to go to the Twin Cities. I once booked a return Cancun ticket via MSP and MEM for considerably less than it would have cost just to go to MSP. The vast majority of people just do the 7 hour drive.

Sounds like it is ripe for expansion. I imagine that if the return of the Montrealer is successful as well as the Toronto - Chicago route is, they may look at this and the Gull as possible returns as well. It is interesting how car centric USA is expanding their rail network. Maybe they are smarter than the naysayers on this forum.

Originally Posted by milomilo

Sounds legit. And this applies to all the prairie cities. Driving is easy, distances are large and having a car at the other end is a massive convenience. Some might long for the days where the train was the best option, but those days are gone forever, just like the days of using ships to travel across oceans are gone forever.

Nothing is gone forever if in the end it was the better way. Streetcars were ripped up for buses. Now the cites are trying to put them back.

Originally Posted by milomilo

Which part is not true?

• Driving in the prairies is easy - true
• Distances are large - true
• Having a car is a massive convenience - true

You might like the train experience, but we're not going to spend big on a few dozen people a day with the same priorities when we could spend that money on places that actually justify the investment. Long distance routes in the prairies are bottom of the pile for investment in passenger rail, and if you believe otherwise you are going to have a lifetime of disappointment.

Drive in Canada and the USA is easy.
Distances are large across both countries.
Having a car is a massive convenience throughout both countries.

So, tell me why Amtrak is being expanded?

Originally Posted by esquire

I'm not trying to be negative, I'm just not convinced that there really is a critical mass of potential train travellers heading in both directions to justify the existence of the service. Toronto-Chicago is an example of two cities a similar distance apart with far greater population than Winnipeg and Minneapolis and even that pair has struggled to sustain any kind of through train service.

A second competing airline on the YWG-MSP route that drives down prices a bit would do more to improve connectivity between the two cities than any train ever could.

That is one of the problems with having nothing in place. We don''t have enough data for it. This is the chicken and egg situation.

Originally Posted by milomilo

You've got it all wrong. Right now we have the taxpayer paying $20 for some people to have a $7 steak and $1000 for a handful of arbitrability selected people to have $1 worth of scrapings off the floor. What would be better is to have limited resources distributed where it gives the most valuable, thus making the country richer and allowing more people to have more.

If the Canadian was so valuable as "the greatest train journey in the world" then it wouldn't be breaking even, at best. It would be able to charge a ticket price high enough such that it could buy new equipment and pay the rail companies enough to let the trains run on time.

I was in the navy for 8 year. All of the food was paid for by taxpayers. Surf and Turf on the first Thursday of a sail, and steak every Thursday of a sail after that. Let me tell you, I ate well. I didn't just get fat from laziness. It took years of delicious food supplied by the taxpayers.

So, tell me about this problem with paying a small subsidy for Via?

Originally Posted by roger1818

That is a big if. Looking at Amtrak's ambitious ConectUs proposal (which is dependant on receiving both state and federal funding), they have no upgrades planed on the line from St. Paul to Fargo and on to Grand Forks. Even if they did, the direct line from Grand Forks to Winnipeg is gone. It is unlikely for this to be replaced for an occasional passenger train and the detour to get to a main line (for faster operation) is not trivial.

You know, there is a line that was abandoned in Ontario. There is talks about laying down new tracks just to run some trains on it....

Point is, it could be done if/when the need is there. It may not be today, but it still could happen.

Originally Posted by Curmudgeon

Probably because the service was so piss-poor. Demolition by neglect.

The most truest statement ever posted on this forum.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by milomilo

What a tremendous waste of money that would be. Yes, subsidy is OK, but why should we prioritise subsidising a tiny number of foreigners when there are many times more Canadians that could benefit from that spending on improved transit?

You don't understand how giving money to tourist traps, like the Canadian is a good investment, as those tourists spend more than the subsidy in Canada at non subsidized things, like hotels, restaurants, etc.

Originally Posted by Curmudgeon

I proposed above in this thread that perhaps non-residents of Canada should pay a higher fare or Canadian residents get a discount from full fare, either/or. Many Canadians use the services, I have a number of times. It is amazing. The subsidies are trifling.

What a tremendous waste of money schools are, esp. when a significant number of high school grads are functionally illiterate. Do you believe that we should close them?

As Joe Biden says, "Come on Man".

Some people want to see the government not fund anything. I call those types of people "right wing nut jobs". Sadly, they come into a place whee good conversation should happen with 🞵🞵🞵🞵 a blazing to shut it down.

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Stronger mandate and better funding. VIA's plans for the Corridor and particularly those for connecting the larger centres seem to be getting held hostage to the kinds of whining we see on here. "Why are they building more in the Corridor when they haven't even connected Winnipeg and Regina yet?"

This is what happens with chronic underfunding.

Originally Posted by manny_santos

Not VIA Rail, but related to passenger rail nonetheless:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/sudbury/ontario-northland-passenger-rail-2025-1.6039373

The aim is for the Northlander to return in 2025, with service from Toronto to North Bay and Timmins/Cochrane.

Just in time for an election.... I could go on about this, but it is good to see something moving forward.

Originally Posted by Curmudgeon

Funny how the trains were faster a century ago, and there were freight trains then too! Even more as Canada had a more east-west economy. The fleet is aging so if it needs replacement and expansion, and naturally it will eventually, spend the money and build new a fleet then. The existing stock is designed for 80 mph. Would create a lot of jobs. Wasn't too much of a problem to spend $1 billion on a G20 summit. Doesn't seem to be too much to blow $1 billion/year on a useless TV network that few watch (Radio is essential though for northern communities). And no more subsidies for professional sport either.

I don't want to pay school taxes for poor results. Maybe that money should go to VIA? Honestly, absurd. And if you don't want to talk about improving rail service in this country, don't read the thread. The thread is ALL things VIA, not just griping how some routes receive subsidy (and they are quite small! and are well worth it) so should be eliminated.

It is because they used to be steam. Everyone knows that the fastest way to get around is by a seam locomotive!

[Curmudgeon]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

The conversations in this thread are starting to convince me that it should be GO and Exo that build HFR and that VIA needs to moved on from the Corridor. It's ridiculous to have the interests of a region with half the country's population and economy held hostage by the needs of Medicine Hat and Riviere du Loup.

If VIA can't deliver actual improvements in the next few years, it'll be time for Ontario and Quebec to move past VIA.

It's not Medicine Hat's fault that the Corridor doesn't have HSR. There was a plan 50 years ago which was never implemented. By the way, The Hat has no passenger rail service at all, neither does Calgary. And again, the annual subsidy to the Canadian is around $55 million. That will not go a long ways to upgrading Corridor services. And what about the interests of the West, with a third of the population and more than a third of the economy? B.C. and Alberta together have an economy close 50% to larger than Quebec, yet Calgary has not one effin' passenger train? And are all the Corridor routes profitable? I doubt Sarnia is for instance. And be careful what you wish for because a lot of people in the West are already paraphrasing your last statement. If Canada can't deliver actual improvements in the next few years, it'll be time for the West to move past Ontario and Quebec, whose interests are not similar in any event. You act like the two provinces are some sort of brothers-in-arms. Simply not true.

[thewave46]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

I can see GO being extended to London and Kingston. I can see adding more trips to the weekday rush to those places, much like they have done with Niagara Falls. Longer distances, I don't see. The bilevles were tested on the ONR line to test their viability for long distance use. It did not go well, and were brought back down to the GTA. That would mean that they would have to look for a long distance fleet.... that Via already will have and has good knowledge on those needs. It would be like thinking the TTC could run long distance buses because they operate so many buses. They could, but the learning curve would be steep and full of failures. Unless that i what you want - Failure.

As opposed to VIA's success?

Say what you will about GO, but they've built a network from nothing in the 1970s that actually serves people in the GTA quite well. They've doubled down in the last decade too and look to expand even further.

VIA was given a mandate and successive federal governments have basically treated it like a red-headed stepchild, simply because no broad political support exists for anything beyond incremental change due to its need to be everything to everybody in all provinces. Thus, it flounders into irrelevance.

I'd rather throw my support and money to an entity that seems to have more focused and broader support (GO) in a smaller region (Ontario) as opposed to one that just exists as a weird relic and is treated likewise.

Expand GO to serve all of Southern Ontario. Give the same mandate to EXO in Quebec. Maybe they'll do something worthwhile and make it useful. Maybe GO will fail, but VIA's current modus operandi hasn't set the world on fire for the region. VIA would be relieved of it's largest (in absolute terms, not per rider terms) money drain and can focus on being a national long-distance railway. Or fade into irrelevance. Whatever the feds care to do with it, I guess.

[hipster duck]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

You don't understand how giving money to tourist traps, like the Canadian is a good investment, as those tourists spend more than the subsidy in Canada at non subsidized things, like hotels, restaurants, etc.

You get the same kind of spending out of people who take the private, for-profit Rocky Mountaineer. Plus, there's no subsidy. The Rocky Mountaineer remits GST to the Federal Government.

Frankly, the tourist angle for the Canadian is increasingly weak.

If spending 3 grand per person on a luxury train vacation was my kind of travel, I'd prefer the Rocky Mountaineer over the Canadian. It focuses on the most scenic part, all of the travel is during the day and, at night time, I get to stay in a comfortable hotel room with a decent-sized bathroom that doesn't wiggle around.

[hipster duck]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

You really don't know the history of GO, do you.
For the Barrie Line on September 7, 1982, service only extended to Bradford. On September 17, 1990, the line was extended to Barrie, but was again cut back to Bradford on July 5, 1993.
On the Kitchener line, service was extended beyond Georgetown to Guelph on October 29, 1990, but was again cut back to Georgetown on July 2, 1993

So, tell me how this could happen with Canada's busiest network? Might it have something to do with being subjected to the very same problems that Via can face, and faces more often?

If you know the history of GO, you would know that GO actually owns the tracks to Barrie and from Georgetown to Kitchener now, so it seems unlikely that they would cut back service on track that they own and have invested significant money on.

GO's strategy has been to buy their own trackage and invest money on rail-rail grade separations to avoid conflicts with freight, so I'd say it doesn't face the problems VIA faces at all.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

You get the same kind of spending out of people who take the private, for-profit Rocky Mountaineer. Plus, there's no subsidy. The Rocky Mountaineer remits GST to the Federal Government.

Frankly, the tourist angle for the Canadian is increasingly weak.

If spending 3 grand per person on a luxury train vacation was my kind of travel, I'd prefer the Rocky Mountaineer over the Canadian. It focuses on the most scenic part, all of the travel is during the day and, at night time, I get to stay in a comfortable hotel room with a decent-sized bathroom that doesn't wiggle around.

Then maybe it is time to move it from being a tourist thing to a transportation thing. You know, make it useful for residents along the line.

Originally Posted by hipster duck

If you know the history of GO, you would know that GO actually owns the tracks to Barrie and from Georgetown to Kitchener now, so it seems unlikely that they would cut back service on track that they own and have invested significant money on.

GO's strategy has been to buy their own trackage and invest money on rail-rail grade separations to avoid conflicts with freight, so I'd say it doesn't face the problems VIA faces at all.

And the Ontario government has never shut down service on things they have owned...

In completely and irrelevant news The Ontario government is proceeding with returning the Northlander on tracks it owns and has owned for over 100 years. Oh, wait....

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

If you know the history of GO, you would know that GO actually owns the tracks to Barrie and from Georgetown to Kitchener now, so it seems unlikely that they would cut back service on track that they own and have invested significant money on.

GO's strategy has been to buy their own trackage and invest money on rail-rail grade separations to avoid conflicts with freight, so I'd say it doesn't face the problems VIA faces at all.

Yep. He's talking about history from nearly three decades ago as though GO from 1990 bares much resemblance to GO today. Let alone what GO will be post-RER.

The way I see it, it's much easier for GO to build some kind of higher speed rail/HFR or even HSR as an express rail service that compliments its regional service, in an incremental fashion, than waiting a decade for VIA to study an idea, another half decade to possibly decide to implement it and then not implement it all.

GO is building a massive electrified and mostly grade separated heavy rail network that will eventually transport as many passengers in a fortnight than what VIA does in a year. And these plans haven't even slowed under a conservative government.

Meanwhile, the federal Liberals took half a decade to study HFR, haven't released the study and won't actually commit to the project with a launch. And nobody knows if HFR survives when the convent eventually flips back to the Conservatives, who have austerity at the top of their agenda.

If the feds can't commit to HFR later this year, I'll be petitioning my MPP to have Metrolinx start considering expansion to push for VIA to turn over the Corridor.

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Stronger mandate and better funding. VIA's plans for the Corridor and particularly those for connecting the larger centres seem to be getting held hostage to the kinds of whining we see on here. "Why are they building more in the Corridor when they haven't even connected Winnipeg and Regina yet?"

If that is the case, may be it's time to ditch VIA and reduce them to only running long distance trains. Ontario and Quebec do need to start thinking about integration anyway. Ottawa needs to better connected with Montreal. And the Toronto ex-urban shed needs to be extended to a London, Kingston and Peterborough. And GO and Exo are becoming agencies that are capable of building such connections.

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

The conversations in this thread are starting to convince me that it should be GO and Exo that build HFR and that VIA needs to moved on from the Corridor. It's ridiculous to have the interests of a region with half the country's population and economy held hostage by the needs of Medicine Hat and Riviere du Loup.

If VIA can't deliver actual improvements in the next few years, it'll be time for Ontario and Quebec to move past VIA.

That's actually kind of interesting and an option I hadn't really considered before. But it's basically what Australia does and they have stronger regional rail service despite the countries being similar in many ways.

Rail services around Sydney in the state of New South Wales is provided by NSW TrainLink, a branch of Transport for NSW, a state (provincial) rather than national entity, while the services around Melbourne are provided by V-Line with Queensland Rail service the Brisbane/Gold Coast region. The two metro areas are connected by NSW TrainLink services which does have a few routes that extend outside of the state, also serving Melbourne, Canberra, and Brisbane. They have different branding for their medium distance services calling at regional cities equivalent to London, St. Catherine's, etc. compared to their long distance services.

The trans-continental services are provided by "The Ghan" and "The Indian Pacific" which run only weekly (!!!) and are considered tourist trains. They seem to be totally separate from the regional networks and not considered relevant in terms of transportation utility.

[hipster duck]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

The way I see it, it's much easier for GO to build some kind of higher speed rail/HFR or even HSR as an express rail service that compliments its regional service, in an incremental fashion, than waiting a decade for VIA to study an idea, another half decade to possibly decide to implement it and then not implement it all.

...

If the feds can't commit to HFR later this year, I'll be petitioning my MPP to have Metrolinx start considering expansion to push for VIA to turn over the Corridor.

Metrolinx is in a pretty good position to pick up the pieces of HFR, at least in Ontario:

- They have some experience running at least two different style of trains, given that they run UPX alongside GO. UPX is somewhat oriented toward business passengers and providing intercity-like amenities;

- Both Ottawa and the GTA use Presto, so Metrolinx would just have to set up a fare integration scheme with OC Transpo the same way they do with the GTA transit providers;

- Metrolinx operation of HFR would solve the issue of how to connect from the Lakeshore to the Havelock sub. Since Metrolinx already owns the Stouffville line and is investing considerable money in double-tracking and electrifying it, it's just a matter of building a flyover to connect to the CP tracks south of Agincourt.

For Quebec, I think that CDPQinfra could use their experience building the REM system to come up with a solution for Quebec City-Montreal service. I think that VIA's Quebec City-Montreal service is incredibly poorly run given that it is within a province with two highly urban cities that are too close for air travel and a population that believes more strongly in the role of public service and environmentalism. This seems like a nation-building project for Quebec (Quebeckers being much more amenable to such a project).

That basically leaves the section between Ottawa and Montreal. I think Metrolinx/Infrastructure Ontario and CDPQ Infra can settle to buy out VIA's Alexandria sub and make the necessary infrastructure improvements at the existing bottlenecks.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Curmudgeon

There is an existing line from Grand Forks to Crookston, Minn. and then up to Winnipeg. New track would be best to handle 110 mph trains. We are talking about 140 miles of track .

Crookston is about 38 km east-south-east of Grand Forks. You are talking about having the train faster than driving and yet want to divert it on an Z shaped route?

Originally Posted by Curmudgeon

Funny how you didn't seem to complain when I said that the c.330 mile Toronto-Montreal run should be upgraded to full high speed, at least to InterCity 125 standards and achieve the trip in 3 1/2 hours, which would result in a net profit (see Acela Express percentage of NYC-WSH market vs. pre-opening) which could be used to subsidize the outer less profitable routes.

I don't have time to respond to every comment. In general I don't think HSR should be VIA's highest priority, but I am not opposed to it either. If you have read my posts you will have noticed I am highly supportive of VIA's HFR plan, revitalizing intercity rail in Alberta, and having the Canadian government upgrade the Canadian portion (in Vancouver) of the track used by Amtrak's Cascades service, among others.

Originally Posted by Curmudgeon

Is the Sheppard Line profitable or is it subsidized by Yonge-University and Bloor trains? Meh, just close it.

I have no idea. I am not from Toronto. Having said that, it doesn't need to be profitable, there just needs to be value for the money spent, since there is limited money to spend.

Originally Posted by Curmudgeon

Funny how the trains were faster a century ago, and there were freight trains then too! Even more as Canada had a more east-west economy.

Where did you get the idea that the railways moved more freight a century ago than they do today? One thing that has changed is the type of freight that is being transported. A century ago, the railways transported a lot of express freight, but today the railways can't compete with airplanes or trucks in speed. Where they can compete though is in cost, so freight trains today are much longer and slower than they used to be in an attempt to keep costs down.

Originally Posted by Curmudgeon

The fleet is aging so if it needs replacement and expansion, and naturally it will eventually, spend the money and build new a fleet then. The existing stock is designed for 80 mph.

It isn't the fleet that limits the speed of VIA's trains. It is a combination of the track and interference from long, slow freight trains.

[roger1818]

Having Metrolinx take over VIA's corridor service in Ontario is an interesting idea, but I doubt if it will ever happen. Metrolinx's "mandate is transforming mobility across the GTHA" and I doubt if it will be expanded to include Ottawa and Windsor. They are gradually expanding beyond the GTHA to include more of the Golden Horseshoe, but London and Kingston (let alone Ottawa and Windsor) are still a long way off without a major change in mandate from Queens Park.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by roger1818

Having Metrolinx take over VIA's corridor service in Ontario is an interesting idea, but I doubt if it will ever happen.

If HFR doesn't happen in the coming years, I absolutely can see something like happening. Right now they are busy with RER. But come with 2030, they'll have a whole lot more experience, assets and infrastructure. And population growth means that the public will also be asking why service to Kingston, Peterborough, London, etc is 🞵🞵🞵🞵.

Originally Posted by roger1818

Metrolinx's "mandate is transforming mobility across the GTHA" and I doubt if it will be expanded to include Ottawa and Windsor. They are gradually expanding beyond the GTHA to include more of the Golden Horseshoe, but London and Kingston (let alone Ottawa and Windsor) are still a long way off without a major change in mandate from Queens Park.

Mandates and their interpretations can change. There's no reason for GO to run service to Niagara Falls and for OC Transpo to use Presto (managed by Metrolinx). Yet, here we are. Another decade of the feds and VIA 🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵 the dog on the Corridor and I bet the conversations will be very different.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

For Quebec, I think that CDPQinfra could use their experience building the REM system to come up with a solution for Quebec City-Montreal service. I think that VIA's Quebec City-Montreal service is incredibly poorly run given that it is within a province with two highly urban cities that are too close for air travel and a population that believes more strongly in the role of public service and environmentalism. This seems like a nation-building project for Quebec (Quebeckers being much more amenable to such a project).

Yep. And I'd be highly surprised if Quebec transport bureaucrats and CDPQInfra haven't looked at this, or had numerous discussions with VIA. That city pair is as important to Quebec as CalEd to Alberta. There's gotta be frustration with the lack of development there. The current 3.5 hr ride for ~270 km looks pretty ridiculous.

Originally Posted by hipster duck

That basically leaves the section between Ottawa and Montreal. I think Metrolinx/Infrastructure Ontario and CDPQ Infra can settle to buy out VIA's Alexandria sub and make the necessary infrastructure improvements at the existing bottlenecks.

Like what I envision for GO. Exo already runs commuter services along part of the route. They can pitch a higher speed limited stop service as an express.

People get hung up on not being able to cross provincial boundaries. But that is something that can be bypassed. As OC Transpo does, just set up the one rail line as federally regulated.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

If HFR doesn't happen in the coming years, I absolutely can see something like happening. Right now they are busy with RER. But come with 2030, they'll have a whole lot more experience, assets and infrastructure. And population growth means that the public will also be asking why service to Kingston, Peterborough, London, etc is 🞵🞵🞵🞵.

Possibly, but I am not holding my breath.

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Mandates and their interpretations can change.

They can, but I question the desire of Queen's Park to make the change.

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

There's no reason for GO to run service to Niagara Falls and for OC Transpo to use Presto (managed by Metrolinx). Yet, here we are.

Niagara Falls is part of the Golden Horseshoe. As for OC Transpo using Presto, that was an political move to rob Peter to pay Paul.

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Like what I envision for GO. Exo already runs commuter services along part of the route. They can pitch a higher speed limited stop service as an express.

People get hung up on not being able to cross provincial boundaries. But that is something that can be bypassed. As OC Transpo does, just set up the one rail line as federally regulated.

It is less about authority and more about desire. Do you really think Exo cares about providing service to Ottawa? Unless there is money to be made by it, why would they subsidize the route? It isn't impossible to resolve, but it does add challenges.

OC Transpo's service to Gatineau is primarily for the benefit of Ottawa residents, and STO's service to Ottawa is primarily for the benefit of Gatineau residents.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by roger1818

Possibly, but I am not holding my breath.



They can, but I question the desire of Queen's Park to make the change.

Like I said, this depends on the level of inaction from the feds and the effect that has on the provinces. I'm not suggesting that Metrolinx is chomping at the bit right now.

Originally Posted by roger1818

It is less about authority and more about desire. Do you really think Exo cares about providing service to Ottawa? Unless there is money to be made by it, why would they subsidize the route? It isn't impossible to resolve, but it does add challenges.

Presumably, any such plan will come as part of a bilateral deal between Ontario and Quebec. It's not just Exo randomly starting service to Ottawa.

There's all kinds of ways this could play out. Maybe even CDPQInfra building a Toronto-Ottawa-Montreal higher speed/HFR line as a joint Ontario-Quebec co-branded venture.

It's easy to say it can't happen. But a decade ago I wouldn't believe Ontario would commit to a $12B two decade long plan to build RER in the GTA. And I would have laughed is somebody told me that not only would this survive an election, but that a conservative government led by Doug Ford would support it. Yet, here we are.

We're going back to an era where conservatives, at least provincially, want to see infrastructure built, adding to the broader consensus. At some point that view will come into conflict with federal underinvestment and inaction on the Corridor.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Like I said, this depends on the level of inaction from the feds and the effect that has on the provinces. I'm not suggesting that Metrolinx is chomping at the bit right now.

That's fair. Even with HFR I could see the province eventually taking over the Toronto-Kingston route, but I just don't see them extending to Ottawa. I could be wrong though.

Presumably, any such plan will come as part of a bilateral deal between Ontario and Quebec. It's not just Exo randomly starting service to Ottawa.

There's all kinds of ways this could play out. Maybe even CDPQInfra building a Toronto-Ottawa-Montreal higher speed/HFR line as a joint Ontario-Quebec co-branded venture.

Maybe. As I said, I am not holding my breath though.

[SIGSEGV]

Originally Posted by roger1818

That is a big if. Looking at Amtrak's ambitious ConectUs proposal (which is dependant on receiving both state and federal funding), they have no upgrades planed on the line from St. Paul to Fargo and on to Grand Forks. Even if they did, the direct line from Grand Forks to Winnipeg is gone. It is unlikely for this to be replaced for an occasional passenger train and the detour to get to a main line (for faster operation) is not trivial.

Yeah I looked at that and concluded that the abandoned (but as far as I can tell unencroached) ROW through Pembina would have to be restored, which is a big ask of course.

As for people preferring to have their own cars, it depends on what the plan is. There is also a strong preference to NOT to drive 7 hours if you can help it or fork $400/person to Delta. Depending on what someone's plans are, public transit or Uber are decent options. I don't have a strong sense of the travel market between Winnipeg / Grand Forks / Fargo / Minneapolis though.

[roger1818]

VIA Rail has revealed the Final Design of it’s New Fleet.

• Video Link

There website also has updated renderings.