[Saint John] Uptown Thread

[JHikka]

All we need now is someone to propose the horse racing track idea again for the Lantic sugar site and i'll hit a bingo on my SJ thread card.

Originally Posted by Pugsley

I would propose, to balance out the current public/private development, that a new public library on King's Square opposite the Imperial would create a nice balance of King's Square being a cultural node.

I don't dislike the idea of the Public Library being moved to a new build at King's Square North. I think this has some merit.

Casino is...probably not going to happen in the foreseeable future, partly because a few of the ships that frequent the harbour already have gaming onboard, and a few others aren't in SJ long enough for any discernible amount of time to warrant being a destination.

[homebody]

Cooke Aquaculture

I heard that Cooke is looking at purchasing the long wharf for its world headquarters. I assume they would go where the piles are buried from the original Irving Oil Headquarters. I under they are now scattered all over the city and Southern NB. I didn’t think they employed that many people corporately.

[cdnguys]

Originally Posted by homebody

Cooke Aquaculture

I heard that Cooke is looking at purchasing the long wharf for its world headquarters. I assume they would go where the piles are buried from the original Irving Oil Headquarters. I under they are now scattered all over the city and Southern NB. I didn’t think they employed that many people corporately.

They recently renovated the old synagogue on Carleton Street and retrofitted the Clark & Drummie building. They recently purchased many seafood businesses, but seem to have a really decentralized structure. But who knows, nothing surprises me anymore lately.

[NewIreland]

Originally Posted by homebody

Cooke Aquaculture

I heard that Cooke is looking at purchasing the long wharf for its world headquarters. I assume they would go where the piles are buried from the original Irving Oil Headquarters. I under they are now scattered all over the city and Southern NB. I didn’t think they employed that many people corporately.

God I hate these kind of posts. At least provide us with a source. Anyway, their research and development team is growing quickly, so they likely want all of their operations under one roof. They also have a fleet of research vessels so a waterfront location makes sense.

[NewIreland]

Anyway, since we're indulging our fantasies, here's Cooke's current campus pasted onto the LW site. Add a few more buildings for expansion/consolidation + landscaping+parkade+other infrastructure and yeah.... makes sense.

[NewIreland]

Original Irving Plan: LostValleyBlog

[Fischbob]

I wonder how Cooke's rumoured plans for Long Wharf jive (or don't) with the future development concept presented in the Central Peninsula Neighbourhood Plan:


Source

Personally hoping that the site is able to evolve into its own full-fledged neighbourhood, and won't just become a suburban style corporate campus like that IOL proposal.

[Pugsley]

Originally Posted by JHikka

All we need now is someone to propose the horse racing track idea again for the Lantic sugar site and i'll hit a bingo on my SJ thread card.

Casino is...probably not going to happen in the foreseeable future, partly because a few of the ships that frequent the harbour already have gaming onboard, and a few others aren't in SJ long enough for any discernible amount of time to warrant being a destination.

Hi there, I don't think the cruise industry should be the deciding factor here. There are casinos in several cruise ship ports - Barcelona, Cannes, Halifax, Boston...to name a few. Plus, the city needs to diversify itself away from cruise traffic to be more stable.

Development of Market Square should focus on making Saint John a four-season destination and not simply geared towards the cruise ships. I don't think Saint John does enough to promote its unique location and weekend destination advantages. It is a short 1-1.5 hour flight from a large pool of potential weekend visitors (Boston, Montreal, Ottawa, Halifax, Toronto) and unlike other cities it's size, has an extremely compact and vibrant Central Business District with decent 4-star hotels, restaurants, shops, galleries, nightlife, museums, and historic sites. This makes it ideal for 2-night getaways where there is no need to rent a car. In as little as 2 hours, a couple could fly from the Ottawa Airport and be at the front desk of the Saint John Hilton to check in - that is rare.

With a casino in Market Square, there would be even more to attract visitors like couples (romantic getaways), bachelorette or stag weekends, and multi-day conferences - where evening entertainment for attendees is always top of mind for meeting planners.

I just wish the city and local business leaders would start thinking about these unique attributes.

[JHikka]

I'm very bearish on the idea of a casino being a tourism generator. There are already casinos for people from Boston, Toronto, etc. if they want them in their local markets. They're a neat thing to have as an aside but they can't be a focal point or a crutch for a local tourism industry. If people are leaving those larger markets for smaller markets like Saint John then they're going to be looking for smaller market things to enjoy - things that only Saint John can provide them. Things like the tide, the river, natural outdoorsy things that you can't really get in larger centres. What makes Saint John unique from larger pop. centres? It won't be a casino.

Even if you look at it from a live performance angle (similar to Casino NB in Moncton) I don't know if the Uptown has the capacity or the demand for three separate events venues (Imperial, Harbour Station, and a presumed Casino). I'm not trying to be a downer on this - just expressing that we already have live event venues that can handle current demand.

When we would have these conversations a decade ago another factor that usually came up was the low-income nature of the Uptown and the addictive potential that live-gaming options can present. This issue is likely less of an issue now as Uptown has slowly gentrified and pushed those lower-income residents elsewhere, but the issue still persists, at least IMO. I'm all for Saint John diversifying its tourism industry, and agree that all eggs cannot be put into the cruise industry basket, but I don't think a casino is really a solution to any sort of underlying gap in the market (both literally and figuratively). Saint John does have a very dense and tight urban core, you're right, but I think there are other things developing that better suit that niche, like Imperial, SJTC, etc.

Frankly, casinos just strike me as, like, ideas that might have worked forty years ago, similar to how horse racing tracks had similar appeal. Very Atlantic City, at least to me.

[NB_ExistsToo]

Originally Posted by JHikka

I'm very bearish on the idea of a casino being a tourism generator. There are already casinos for people from Boston, Toronto, etc. if they want them in their local markets. They're a neat thing to have as an aside but they can't be a focal point or a crutch for a local tourism industry. If people are leaving those larger markets for smaller markets like Saint John then they're going to be looking for smaller market things to enjoy - things that only Saint John can provide them. Things like the tide, the river, natural outdoorsy things that you can't really get in larger centres. What makes Saint John unique from larger pop. centres? It won't be a casino.

Even if you look at it from a live performance angle (similar to Casino NB in Moncton) I don't know if the Uptown has the capacity or the demand for three separate events venues (Imperial, Harbour Station, and a presumed Casino). I'm not trying to be a downer on this - just expressing that we already have live event venues that can handle current demand.

When we would have these conversations a decade ago another factor that usually came up was the low-income nature of the Uptown and the addictive potential that live-gaming options can present. This issue is likely less of an issue now as Uptown has slowly gentrified and pushed those lower-income residents elsewhere, but the issue still persists, at least IMO. I'm all for Saint John diversifying its tourism industry, and agree that all eggs cannot be put into the cruise industry basket, but I don't think a casino is really a solution to any sort of underlying gap in the market (both literally and figuratively). Saint John does have a very dense and tight urban core, you're right, but I think there are other things developing that better suit that niche, like Imperial, SJTC, etc.

Frankly, casinos just strike me as, like, ideas that might have worked forty years ago, similar to how horse racing tracks had similar appeal. Very Atlantic City, at least to me.

I agree with you. As much as I like casinos, I'm not a fan of having one in the heart of Uptown. Saint John already has a lot to offer, being the only city on the Bay of Fundy. I'd be more interested in a mixed-used design building laid out with outdoor space (courtyard) for outdoor events.

But maybe I'm just biased towards the current layout, with the stage/volleyball courts. It would be better if there was more space for watching the stage without requiring to sit at a restaurant.

Whatever happens there, I believe there needs to be a boardwalk going along the perimeter on the water, there's not nearly enough water access.

[cdnguys]

So with so much development in the 3 major NB cities and Halifax, I have a question about architecture. Councillor Sullivan made an interesting point at a PAC meeting that buildings should be “inspiring”. What does that mean to you, and what buildings (or renderings) are inspiring or not inspiring? I do think inspiring public spaces and buildings give a sense of belonging - that’s why I love the old buildings and green spaces uptown. Is The Wellington inspiring? Seems unique enough. Halifax seems to be getting a mix of really unique buildings, along with uninspiring ones.

[Helladog]

Originally Posted by cdnguys

...what buildings (or renderings) are inspiring or not inspiring?

Inspiring

Halifax Library (design)
IOL Tower (quality)

Not Inspiring

Service Canada shoebox (industrial, featureless)
Peel Plaza Parking Structure (blank wall)
JDI Tower (ugly colour and bland)

[ColSJ]

Has anyone been around 91 King recently? If so, has any demolition taken place?

[gtsoc]

Originally Posted by ColSJ

Has anyone been around 91 King recently? If so, has any demolition taken place?

As of Sunday afternoon (30th) no. Just a bunch of signs, concrete barriers and fencing.

[ColSJ]

Originally Posted by gtsoc

As of Sunday afternoon (30th) no. Just a bunch of signs, concrete barriers and fencing.

I just came across a post from Martin's Cranes showing they were removing rooftop units today from 85-87 King. South Market Street is also gravel now.

[ColSJ]

Demolition has begun at 91 King

[homebody]

Originally Posted by ColSJ

Demolition has begun at 91 King

Anxiously waiting now to see the final development plans!

[cdnguys]

Ah the infamous brick people were anxious to see revealed again. Curious how deep the foundation is to save developer time and money and whether it’s solid bedrock like IRVING HQ

[ColSJ]

Demolition seems to be moving at a very fast pace. 85-87 King’s top two floors are gone and about 1/3 of 91 King remains standing.

[cdnguys]

The Wentworth crane has been removed. Hopefully stored for just a couple months then off to 99 King St