Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[Tg11]

Haven't been to Quebec since 2003/04 and I've always wanted to go back but I have always wondered why Quebecois always hate on people who are directly from France especially Paris

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

Just as Canada benefits greatly from the French fact, so too does Quebec from the English minority.

Hard to convince Jean-Pierre from Saguenay that this is the case though...……

[Martin Mtl]

Originally Posted by Tg11

Haven't been to Quebec since 2003/04 and I've always wanted to go back but I have always wondered why Quebecois always hate on people who are directly from France especially Paris

That is simply not true.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by JHikka

So...national referenda on changes Quebec wants to make?
.

Swiss German cantons, which make up about 65% of the population, don't get to throw their demographic weight around in referendums to tell the French or Italian cantons what to do on their own turf.

That's kinda the point of a true confederation like Switzerland.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by JHikka

It doesn't directly affect me, either, but it lays precedence for other provinces to invoke similar measures. I'll glance slowly towards the future of NB.

Unfortunately NB is held hostage by McKenna's Folly (entrenching provincial bilingualism in the Canadian constitution).

This will cast a shadow over any meaningful changes to provincial language policy for centuries...……

[Tg11]

Originally Posted by Martin Mtl

That is simply not true.

Yeah may be but back then years ago when I was last there, it was like that

[MolsonExport]

There are a lot of French-from-France in le Plateau Mt. Royal, and some snide remarks about this have been circulated, but I have never heard of true animosity towards these people, any more than that which Anglo-Canadians would harbor towards their British counterparts.

I spent most of my life in Quebec, and I never witnessed animosity towards French from France. Au Contraire....
Now in France, there is often amusement when they encounter a Quebecois...the equivalent of "Ahh, your accent is so....how do you say it? Charming....?"

[thewave46]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Unfortunately NB is held hostage by McKenna's Folly (entrenching provincial bilingualism in the Canadian constitution).

This will cast a shadow over any meaningful changes to provincial language policy for centuries...……

It's not folly if it is representative of the situation on the ground.

NB may have other follies (see: Irving control of province), but I don't think bilingualism is one of them.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Tg11

Yeah may be but back then years ago when I was last there, it was like that

And you conducted an empirical study while you were here?

Unless you are France-French yourself (and would therefore have a first-hand idea of how they are treated), which seems extremely unlikely from the nature and tone of your posts.

Otherwise, MolsonEx's take is a pretty accurate one to go by.

[MolsonExport]

Don't the irvings rule NB with an iron fist from Bermuda?

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

There are a lot of French-from-France in le Plateau Mt. Royal, and some snide remarks about this have been circulated, but I have never heard of true animosity towards these people, any more than that which Anglo-Canadians would harbor towards their British counterparts.

I spent most of my life in Quebec, and I never witnessed animosity towards French from France. Au Contraire....
Now in France, there is often amusement when they encounter a Quebecois...the equivalent of "Ahh, your accent is so....how do you say it? Charming....?"

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/...of-french-immigrants-brings-new-tensions

"Across the city, Montrealers now complain about both snobbery and rising prices, as ex-Parisians flood once-affordable neighborhoods like the fashionable Plateau—now often referred to as “New France.” While tensions have long simmered, they now sometimes boil over. A popular Facebook group for Montreal apartment listings recently banned posts regarding vacancies in the Plateau, citing unjustifiably high prices and Parisians who are “used to shitting in 3-foot bathrooms with tiles from the period between the first and second world wars.”

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

Don't the irvings rule NB with an iron fist from Bermuda?

Yes.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by thewave46

It's not folly if it is representative of the situation on the ground.

NB may have other follies (see: Irving control of province), but I don't think bilingualism is one of them.

Bilingualism is not representative of the situation on the ground.

Bilingual policy in the province is slavishly enforced on a pan provincial level, ignoring the fact that a francophone in St Andrews is as rare as an anglophone in Lameque.

Despite this, paramedics in Grand Manan Island are expected to be fluently bilingual even though there is effectively no French population on the island, leading to enforced shortages in emergency medical services.

It doesn't make any sense.

NB should have it's own "cantons", where local governments can decide how bilingual they want to be.

[thewave46]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Bilingualism is not representative of the situation on the ground.

Bilingual policy in the province is slavishly enforced on a pan provincial level, ignoring the fact that a francophone in St Andrews is as rare as an anglophone in Lameque.

Despite this, paramedics in Grand Manan Island are expected to be fluently bilingual even though there is effectively no French population on the island, leading to enforced shortages in emergency medical services.

It doesn't make any sense.

NB doesn't have the equivalent of French-service regions?

In those areas of Ontario, bilingualism is (mostly) mandatory in a government-provided customer service role.

Nobody goes to the MTO office in London, ON expecting French-language service. Hearst, ON? Yes.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by thewave46

NB doesn't have the equivalent of French-service regions?

In those areas of Ontario, bilingualism is (mostly) mandatory in a government-provided customer service role.

Nobody goes to the MTO office in London, ON expecting French-language service. Hearst, ON? Yes.

No, NB really should have the ON model of regionalized language services rather than the very blanket measures they have today which are provincewide. The equivalent of requiring full bilingual proficiency in Sarnia and Chatham. I haven't done any reading in the past few years but i'd be curious if NB could alter its Languages Act to provide that regionalized service without contravening the Constitution Act.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by JHikka

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/...of-french-immigrants-brings-new-tensions

"Across the city, Montrealers now complain about both snobbery and rising prices, as ex-Parisians flood once-affordable neighborhoods like the fashionable Plateau—now often referred to as “New France.” While tensions have long simmered, they now sometimes boil over. A popular Facebook group for Montreal apartment listings recently banned posts regarding vacancies in the Plateau, citing unjustifiably high prices and Parisians who are “used to shitting in 3-foot bathrooms with tiles from the period between the first and second world wars.”
.

"tensions boiling over" = some social media posts

Anyone can write an article driving an agenda - it's actually in the interest of some people to convince the French that Montreal and Quebec aren't good places for them to move, and even drive a little wedge between native Canadian francophones and francophone immigrants.

I'll let you take a wild guess as to why.

But sure, some French people don't like us or don't like living here. Some people from here don't like French people moving here - though that seems pretty rare based on what I hear.

I assume some people in Canadian City X don't like people from Country X either, and that the feeling is reciprocated in the other direction by some.

Overall though, things are fine.

Given the situation in France, I'd expect the numbers of French immigrants here to continue to increase in the coming years.

The Plateau neighbourhood MolsonEx referenced is colloquially referred to by some as "le 21e arrondissement de Paris". (Paris itself has 20 arrondissements.)

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by thewave46

NB doesn't have the equivalent of French-service regions?

Obviously the ease of linguistic service provision depends on where you live in the province. Things are pretty seamless in Moncton since we are the bilingual poster child for the province, but even in Charlotte County a francophone can demand services in his own language at the Service NB office in his town. There will always be at least one employee on staff capable of providing such services.

Lots of traffic tickets in NB get thrown out of court (or at least they used to) if a bilingual francophone demanded service in French and the (unilingual) police officer was unable to accommodate. In general, this will mean a two person crew in the police car will include at least one bilingual person, no matter where in the province you live. Similarly, at least one paramedic in an ambulance crew will have to be bilingual as well.

This can cause a lot of resentment in rural anglophone southern NB.

Regional bilingualism in NB would be a lot better accepted by the population than dogmatic provincial bilingualism.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

NB should have it's own "cantons", where local governments can decide how bilingual they want to be.

Ideally NB's municipal structure should be updated to account for this. At the moment there's a glut of communities who have no incentive to move up from town and village status to city status despite meeting the population threshold (namely Quispamsis and Riverview) but refuse to do so because that would require bilingual municipal services amongst a slew of other items. Its subdivision system is overwhelmed by the sheer number of small towns and villages which merely fracture and dissolve municipal powers throughout the province. Adding an additional layer on top of this would further muddy the waters in what is already a system with too many local councils and mayors. I'd probably force amalgamation on a lot of the more rural areas and on some of the larger urban areas, lax bilingual requirements of municipalities and make them non-binding, but still offer bilingual servicing in larger regional centres. Tracadie-Sheila is a good example of this, I guess, or some of the more recent rural communities of Upper Miramichi, Haut-Madawaska, and Beaubassin-Est.

You could theoretically use the old counties as a basis for cantons but that would probably require some tweaks here and there given the vast disparity in size and scope, and again I don't see the need for another layer of bureaucracy. Nevermind the fact that it would be a very fast and loose way of determining linguistic needs, and would require time and energy to identify and to match with current trends. 25 years ago Kent County would have been pretty solidly a francophone 'canton', but these days it's much closer to 50/50.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

Don't the irvings rule NB with an iron fist from Bermuda?

Old KC Irving is long since dead. His family (who inherited the empire) all live in greater Saint John and greater Moncton. I think their corporate shell however is still located in Bermuda.

[le calmar]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Unless you are France-French yourself (and would therefore have a first-hand idea of how they are treated), which seems extremely unlikely from the nature and tone of your posts.

Some of my France-French friends (saying that out loud is odd) living in Canada are some of the most anti-French I know. Some others try very hard to hide the fact they are from France. While MolsonEx’s analysis is accurate, you will occasionally stumble upon those anti-French people, but the funny thing is, most if not all of them come from France. Maybe Tg11 is a Seine St-Denis transplant who enjoys his new life in the 6ix very much?

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by le calmar

Some of my France-French friends (saying that out loud is odd) living in Canada are some of the most anti-French I know. Some others try very hard to hide the fact they are from France. While MolsonEx’s analysis is accurate, you will occasionally stumble upon those anti-French people, but the funny thing is, most if not all of them come from France.

That's interesting.

Over the years, I have noticed that some of the SSP members most hostile to British traditions and the Royal Family are in fact ex-pat Brits.

A lot of self selection going on in the immigrant community I would say.