VIA Rail

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by ShavedParmesanCheese

Not bad ideas, that's for sure. Get Thunder Bay on the network, same with the Soo, maybe they could do something about extending that line from Sudbury to White River. We need CP's transcontinental service back as well. Maybe they could do something about connecting Edmonton - Calgary and Saskatoon - Regina

White River is west of the junction with the ACR. Leaving the Budd car to run between Sudbury and White River works if we take your plan to go to the Soo. A problem is the HCR line isn't in good enough shape to be fast enough for passenger service. Improve the line and then it would be a great idea.

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

In the east I would make The Ocean a daily service, and make Toronto the western terminus rather than Montreal. Toronto is after all the hub of the the entire VIA system. For tourists, this means that if they want to see the entire country (Vancouver to Halifax), it would entail only a single transfer in Toronto.

That would be a great idea. Have it so that the Canadian and the Ocean arrive and leave at the same times.

Originally Posted by esquire

That would make sense... it would mean extending the trip by 5 or 6 hours, but it would make the train much more convenient and it would add another Toronto-Montreal frequency (or, I suppose, it could replace one if VIA can't afford to add another one). But either way it would improve connectivity.

I never understood why the Ocean (or before that the Atlantic) never went through to Toronto.

I wonder if going through Ottawa would be a better idea. This way you have the potential of capturing more passengers.

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Honestly, if they were to ever build a proper Corridor rail service (HSR or continuous HFR), I would rather have the Ocean terminate in Quebec City and add frequencies. They could easily make improvements that would allow for double daily (or better) Quebec City-Halifax.

We gotta get past these 18th century tourist services where the train is something you take for a leisurely tour. That will never make it an alternative to the plane or car or bus. And the Maritimes should easily be connectable by train.

Quebec City wouldn't work well at all. No one from the Maritimes thinks of going to QC to shop; they go to Montreal.

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Montreal has the maintenance facilities and personnel hub. And nearly a dozen trains a day that you can connect to, that will get you to Toronto.

Sending the Ocean to Toronto means taking up a precious Corridor train slot for a train that can't service most of the stations en route and would probably be too expensive for regular inter-city travelers. Might be different if VIA had its own track.

So, why would you want it terminated at QC then?

Originally Posted by ssiguy

The problem for VIA is not just the lack o funding they get but also where they are forced to spend it.

All those millions in operating expenses and rolling stock being used by non-Corridorr routes sucks the blood out of the only routes in the country that are even moderately financially sustainable. This is why you can go from Churchill to Price Rupert on VIA but not Edmonton to Calgary.

Maybe they should separate the 2 services so that they can focus on the needs of each.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by esquire

That would make sense... it would mean extending the trip by 5 or 6 hours, but it would make the train much more convenient and it would add another Toronto-Montreal frequency (or, I suppose, it could replace one if VIA can't afford to add another one). But either way it would improve connectivity.

I never understood why the Ocean (or before that the Atlantic) never went through to Toronto.

Montreal used to be the hub for transcontinental service. It used to be that transcontinental trains split in Sudbury, with part of the trains going to Toronto and the rest going to Montreal via Ottawa. So, it is the history of Maritime service that always had it terminate in Montreal, while the west Transcontinental service ceased to Montreal due to federal cutbacks.

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

We gotta get past these 18th century tourist services where the train is something you take for a leisurely tour. That will never make it an alternative to the plane or car or bus. And the Maritimes should easily be connectable by train.

This. The times where these ultra long distance trains were useful are gone forever and will never return. It would be better if people forgot they ever existed and focus on what we would and should build today without nostalgia distracting us.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by milomilo

This. The times where these ultra long distance trains were useful are gone forever and will never return. It would be better if people forgot they ever existed and focus on what we would and should build today without nostalgia distracting us.

I think this is a mistake. Once rail as a national service is eliminated, it will become a provincial issue. I doubt that there is the political will for interprovincial cooperation to make rail work beyond metropolitan areas. So, once we get rid of the transcontinental service, there is no hope to improve rail service and introducing new routes. Plus, we eliminate a major tourist attraction.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Montreal used to be the hub for transcontinental service. It used to be that transcontinental trains split in Sudbury, with part of the trains going to Toronto and the rest going to Montreal via Ottawa. So, it is the history of Maritime service that always had it terminate in Montreal, while the west Transcontinental service ceased to Montreal due to federal cutbacks.

Then instead of the Ocean going to Toronto, it continues to Montreal. Or, the Ocean goes to Toronto and the Canadian goes to Montreal, but going through Ottawa. This would attract more cruise riders.

Originally Posted by milomilo

This. The times where these ultra long distance trains were useful are gone forever and will never return. It would be better if people forgot they ever existed and focus on what we would and should build today without nostalgia distracting us.

We should have the major cities connected to each other by rail. Maybe this should be the end of thru trains. For example, you must transfer at least once, if not twice to go from Windsor to QC or visa versa.

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

I think this is a mistake. Once rail as a national service is eliminated, it will become a provincial issue. I doubt that there is the political will for interprovincial cooperation to make rail work beyond metropolitan areas. So, once we get rid of the transcontinental service, there is no hope to improve rail service and introducing new routes. Plus, we eliminate a major tourist attraction.

Don't care. National service is already gone, the Canadian is worthless for actual transportation, there is no rail service in Alberta. If the federal government is going to invest in rail service in my province, I want it to be something that is actually useful (like a proper Calgary - Edmonton line, or YYC - Banff). The continued existence of the Canadian, let alone expansion of it or reintroduction of the southern route (never going to happen, people need to let it go), just gets in the way of that.

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

We should have the major cities connected to each other by rail. Maybe this should be the end of thru trains. For example, you must transfer at least once, if not twice to go from Windsor to QC or visa versa.

nm

[ShavedParmesanCheese]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

We should have the major cities connected to each other by rail. Maybe this should be the end of thru trains. For example, you must transfer at least once, if not twice to go from Windsor to QC or visa versa.

VIA will be at it's strongest, I suspect, as a service which connects the major cities, instead of trying to go to every town in between. Perhaps that involves bequeathing the rural routes (Sudbury-White River, Winnipeg-Churchill, etc) to provincial authorities, and just focusing on the major centres. It's not like we have that many cities to connect up anyways.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by milomilo

Don't care. National service is already gone, the Canadian is worthless for actual transportation, there is no rail service in Alberta. If the federal government is going to invest in rail service in my province, I want it to be something that is actually useful (like a proper Calgary - Edmonton line, or YYC - Banff). The continued existence of the Canadian, let alone expansion of it or reintroduction of the southern route (never going to happen, people need to let it go), just gets in the way of that.

The existing Canadian route could be chopped at Winnipeg and Edmonton, and maybe even Saskatoon. Run each separately with a forced transfer at each. Doing the same along the CP route at Winnipeg and Calgary and possibly Regina would give you that regional route that would be well served. Adding links between Edmonton and Calgary as well as Regina and Saskatoon would really boost the service there. I do think leaving the line as one long train maybe should only be a once a week thing only during the summer.

Originally Posted by milomilo

nm

What?

Originally Posted by ShavedParmesanCheese

VIA will be at it's strongest, I suspect, as a service which connects the major cities, instead of trying to go to every town in between. Perhaps that involves bequeathing the rural routes (Sudbury-White River, Winnipeg-Churchill, etc) to provincial authorities, and just focusing on the major centres. It's not like we have that many cities to connect up anyways.

If the Northlander comes back, I feel that Ontario might be willing to take it on. I wonder if they would extend it to Toronto, or at least to North Bay so that it connects to the rest of the network.

The Churchill route might be something the FN and MB could work together on.

[casper]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

The existing Canadian route could be chopped at Winnipeg and Edmonton, and maybe even Saskatoon. Run each separately with a forced transfer at each. Doing the same along the CP route at Winnipeg and Calgary and possibly Regina would give you that regional route that would be well served. Adding links between Edmonton and Calgary as well as Regina and Saskatoon would really boost the service there. I do think leaving the line as one long train maybe should only be a once a week thing only during the summer.



What?



If the Northlander comes back, I feel that Ontario might be willing to take it on. I wonder if they would extend it to Toronto, or at least to North Bay so that it connects to the rest of the network.

The Churchill route might be something the FN and MB could work together on.

Not certain what it is with COVID, but before COVID the Canadian spent several hours in Winnipeg on a layover.

The Churchill train also "serves" Saskatchewan. That said, I don't know what ridership there is at those station.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by Aylmer

Yeah, that's what I use. And I go for the cheaper berths. Of course, with covid, it doesn't look like they have those super discount tickets anymore.

I generally travelled in the late summer and winter, so not necessarily the highest of highs, granted. The Via Preference points program is also very generous, with fully 30¢ back on the dollar at the highest tier. Running the numbers, I remember being surprised how not-unreasonable the deal was compared to a flight. Of course, the calculation changes now that Flair is doing Ottawa-Winnipeg for as low as $50. But I think that a lot of people - for the right price and right schedule - could be convinced to pay a bit more and take a bit longer for a much more pleasant experience.

It isn’t really “a bit longer” - it is two days vs. two hours.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by acottawa

It isn’t really “a bit longer” - it is two days vs. two hours.

I'd bet if the schedule was reliable, and they rail at least once a day, more people would want to take the train than a plane.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

I'd bet if the schedule was reliable, and they rail at least once a day, more people would want to take the train than a plane.

I disagree. Even if it was reliable and daily it would still take about 1.5 days to get from the corridor to Winnipeg. That just doesn’t make any sense for a purpose other than tourism. Even in Europe, where train service is frequent, fast and reliable, hardly anyone would take a train that distance (Vienna to Helsinki for example) except for tourism. There is a small niche left for trips in the 6-10 hour range for night trains (although they have massively declined in popularity) but most people will fly for trips over about 4 hours.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

So, why would you want it terminated at QC then?

I made this suggestion with a specific caveat: that the Corridor had improved thru service till Quebec City.

If that was the case then a shorter Ocean becomes much more manageable. I suggested they could then manage 2-3x per day. And then they connect at Quebec City to an hourly or semi-hourly HxR service that would take them anywhere in the Corridor.

A single Ocean that takes almost a day till Montreal and would take a full day to Toronto is all but useless. If they connect to Corridor services at the closest terminus and they should be able to boost frequencies. Especially, if Corridor services themselves have improved substantially.

As for maintenance and crewing, maybe if there are 3x Oceans per day, VIA could justify a small maintenance shed in Halifax or Quebec City.

A shorter line could also mean better trains. Just look at what ÖBB is doing with their Railjet and Nightjet service using Siemens Viaggios like VIA.

https://www.priestmangoode.com/project/new-intercity-and-nightjet/

• Video Link

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

I'd bet if the schedule was reliable, and they rail at least once a day, more people would want to take the train than a plane.

LOL. No.

At a certain point travel time matters. Not everybody is a rail fan who wants to a day and a half in a train. They will either want cheap travel (like a bus). Or fast travel (air). The problem for VIA is that the bus is nearly as fast or faster and cheaper. The plane is a lot faster and not always that much more expensive.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by acottawa

I disagree. Even if it was reliable and daily it would still take about 1.5 days to get from the corridor to Winnipeg. That just doesn’t make any sense for a purpose other than tourism. Even in Europe, where train service is frequent, fast and reliable, hardly anyone would take a train that distance (Vienna to Helsinki for example) except for tourism. There is a small niche left for trips in the 6-10 hour range for night trains (although they have massively declined in popularity) but most people will fly for trips over about 4 hours.

To be fair, the EU is bringing back the Trans European Express trains, this time with overnight HSR. They plan on connecting every capital city in Western Europe at launch in 2025. ÖBB's upgrade of their Railjet service was part of this plan. Great article on Bloomberg here:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/...t-express-but-europe-s-sleepers-are-back

• Video Link

That said. Took the Europeans half a century of building HSR to even get to the point where they can consider something like this. We don't have HSR from Toronto to Montreal. So the idea that rail could be an alternative from Toronto to Winnipeg is kinda hilarious.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by acottawa

I disagree. Even if it was reliable and daily it would still take about 1.5 days to get from the corridor to Winnipeg. That just doesn’t make any sense for a purpose other than tourism. Even in Europe, where train service is frequent, fast and reliable, hardly anyone would take a train that distance (Vienna to Helsinki for example) except for tourism. There is a small niche left for trips in the 6-10 hour range for night trains (although they have massively declined in popularity) but most people will fly for trips over about 4 hours.

So, have no train between Toronto and Winnipeg?
Pre covid, most people would fly. With the way the airlines have been and the general fear of being around anyone, I feel if Via announced things like a return to the CP route that they would be well used. By chopping up the line at places like Calgary, Regina, Edmonton, Saskatoon and Winnipeg, you can then add more service and change the schedule to better meet the needs of the passengers.

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

I made this suggestion with a specific caveat: that the Corridor had improved thru service till Quebec City.

If that was the case then a shorter Ocean becomes much more manageable. I suggested they could then manage 2-3x per day. And then they connect at Quebec City to an hourly or semi-hourly HxR service that would take them anywhere in the Corridor.

A single Ocean that takes almost a day till Montreal and would take a full day to Toronto is all but useless. If they connect to Corridor services at the closest terminus and they should be able to boost frequencies. Especially, if Corridor services themselves have improved substantially.

As for maintenance and crewing, maybe if there are 3x Oceans per day, VIA could justify a small maintenance shed in Halifax or Quebec City.

A shorter line could also mean better trains. Just look at what ÖBB is doing with their Railjet and Nightjet service using Siemens Viaggios like VIA.

So, forced transfers on LRT are bad, but forced transfers on intercity trains are good?

There would need to be more than just 3x trains a week for Via to think it's a good idea to build a maintenance facility. The Budd is only parked in Sudbury. It doesn't get maintained here.

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

LOL. No.

At a certain point travel time matters. Not everybody is a rail fan who wants to a day and a half in a train. They will either want cheap travel (like a bus). Or fast travel (air). The problem for VIA is that the bus is nearly as fast or faster and cheaper. The plane is a lot faster and not always that much more expensive.

I do agree. However, with people driving from places between to Toronto or Winnipeg anyways, that is a group that could be capitalized on.

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

To be fair, the EU is bringing back the Trans European Express trains, this time with overnight HSR. They plan on connecting every capital city in Western Europe at launch in 2025. ÖBB's upgrade of their Railjet service was part of this plan. Great article on Bloomberg here:

That said. Took the Europeans half a century of building HSR to even get to the point where they can consider something like this. We don't have HSR from Toronto to Montreal. So the idea that rail could be an alternative from Toronto to Winnipeg is kinda hilarious.

Funny, all the people I have been talking to want to see the Northlander's night schedule return. Maybe turning the Toronto - Winnipeg section into a night service would work better.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

So, have no train between Toronto and Winnipeg?
Pre covid, most people would fly. With the way the airlines have been and the general fear of being around anyone, I feel if Via announced things like a return to the CP route that they would be well used. By chopping up the line at places like Calgary, Regina, Edmonton, Saskatoon and Winnipeg, you can then add more service and change the schedule to better meet the needs of the passengers.

.

If the Toronto Winnipeg service has value in boosting tourism that justifies the expense than it is probably be worth it. Otherwise some shorter daytime Budd car or DMU service would probably provide better access to the remote communities the line serves.

I am not sure how a train is less risky than a plane. Unless Via is going to start installing operable windows.

I still don’t see the market for 12- 24 hour train rides on the prairies.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by casper

Not certain what it is with COVID, but before COVID the Canadian spent several hours in Winnipeg on a layover.

The Churchill train also "serves" Saskatchewan. That said, I don't know what ridership there is at those station.

Winnipeg layovers have varied dramatically over the years. Back in the 90s and 00s VIA really tightened up the schedule for the Canadian and it stopped in Winnipeg for only one hour. (That's when I could ride the train to Edmonton at a time comparable to driving as compared to the almost 24 hour snail crawl it is now). Then the layover got stretched out to several hours. I think it was down to two hours most recently before COVID interrupted service.

As for the Churchill train, service to Saskatchewan really exists only in a technical sense as the route jogs ever so briefly into that province. It stops in Canora, Kamsack, Hudson Bay and a couple of other tiny specks on the map. I'd be surprised if there were more than a couple hundred Saskatchewan passengers a year on that train. It provides no meaningful transportation service to Saskatchewan except for maybe the one or two people in Canora who have a need to ride a train to Winnipeg.

[GoTrans]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

I think this is a mistake. Once rail as a national service is eliminated, it will become a provincial issue. I doubt that there is the political will for interprovincial cooperation to make rail work beyond metropolitan areas. So, once we get rid of the transcontinental service, there is no hope to improve rail service and introducing new routes. Plus, we eliminate a major tourist attraction.

Having regional trains promotes tourism in what are now intermediate cities such as Winnipeg, Regina, Saskatoon, Calgary and Edmonton. If you have a 6-10 hour layover in Edmonton/Calgary and Winnipeg tourists that don't want to spend several days in theses cities and don't want to or can't afford to spend money on another night in a hotel can still explore these cities. Eurail passes in Europe promote tourism there even though there are very few trains that even Europeans would consider to be long distance trains.

Regional services should be designed to travel to at least the next province since the next largest city going east to west with the exception of Alberta is in a neighbouring province. I would run trains from Winnipeg through Regina to connect with Saskatoon.

My idea of regional services is more like the length of the Ocean only faster.