DENVER | Main Development Thread #7

[wong21fr]

Originally Posted by jhwk

As of August, delayed to late 2021. Looks like market conditions and city utility work that was delayed to April 2021.

https://14wynkoop.com/8-3-20-development-update/

Late 2021 at the earliest. Looks like the kiss of death "currently re-evaluating the program" means this project will be delayed longer than that.

[RyanD]

Originally Posted by bunt_q

Bunt-fugly, I like this. When I win mega-millions, I am going to cover this City in condos so goddamn ugly, yet so goddamn affordable (no granite countertops here - I am singlehandedly going to revive the Formica brand), that people all over facebook are going to experience their brains tearing themselves apart. Think the shit you drive by leaving the Rio de Janeiro airport. Only more EIFS.

I'm even okay with the missing chunks here and there. Gives some good grit to the affordability.

[TakeFive]

EDIT Update and Review


3463 Walnut St. Denver, CO 80205

In the beginning...



Getting Serious...



Real Vertical Progress



Street View



Exterior Nearly completed


All Photos courtesy Zocalo Community Development - EDIT Apartments

Offering two months free rent for August 2021 move-in.

[mojiferous]

Originally Posted by gopokes21

This group and all the YIMBY people on social media will have it out for the Chicanos... just wait for it. Gunna get ugly.

I'm on the side of the Chicano descendants trying to preserve their history. I guess that makes me a snowflake, re: comment above.

Listen Mr. Texas - Don't speak for us, and most importantly don't assume that Candi CDeBaca and the other wokoso know-nothings speak for all of us. The La Alma historic designation is great because it will give some teeth to efforts to preserve some historic murals.

BUT I think all the efforts to "preserve" neighborhoods across the city like Lincoln Park, Sunnyside, or Globeville are built around a seriously broken assumption: that the people that live in these neighborhoods want to continue to live in tiny crumbling houses and don't want re-investment or better housing opportunities... That living in a neighborhood with few opportunities and infrastructure is better because we're amongst "our own people". This assumption has infected both lefty white people and a lot of POC activists I know - they will argue otherwise, but everyone is desperately fighting to "preserve" redlined neighborhoods instead of fighting to empower the people who live there. They cry about how it "used to be" while purposely forgetting that their neighbors who sold did so for better opportunities - I can introduce you to "sell outs" who were able to sell their old houses in Jefferson Park or Highland and upgrade. People who went to college because their parents were able to walk with a ton of money from their crumbling hovel. People that were able to afford to move to the foothills instead of dealing with chingasos causing problems. The people on the west side deserve to sell their houses and make a ton of money and buy a bigger house in a neighborhood that has better resources and more opportunity. True empowerment for minority communities in Denver is giving the people the tools to improve their life and live where they want - it isn't encasing a bunch of 700 sq. ft. houses in amber and saying "you should live here."

I want to be able to live in Country Club and have people not assume I am the gardener or repair guy. I don't want to only live in one neighborhood. I want Chicano developers building apartments and making millions too. I want the kids in the neighborhood to grow up next to people of all colors and backgrounds so maybe they become less balkanized. I want everyone to be able to afford to build or upgrade a house in whatever neighborhood they want instead of where all the "other XXXXX live". I want fight for lower income folks to have access to grocery stores and parks and good schools and not to lock them into polluted little shacks next to a crumbling highway.

Stopping all development in these neighborhoods will do nothing but accelerate inequality - you can't prevent people with money from buying a house and all you're doing is increasing prices while making it harder to build diverse housing options. You're building a system where you lock out the people in the neighborhood that don't have a ton of cash and making it so only people who come in with California-level money can compete.

Every so-called progressive lefty & activist fighting for these things is reinforcing inequality through economics. They're fighting a symptom of a bigger problem and likely making the root problem worse. They're reinforcing old racist systems of segregation and separation instead of giving people the tools to change their lives. They're giving all the power to people with money and not empowering the people without it. That doesn't make you a "snowflake", because it sounds like you mean well and want the best for people in this community, but I think you're working in the wrong direction.

[The Dirt]

I prefer a more eastern European aesthetic. Something that can remind of the smell of old ladies, cigarettes, vodka, and b.o. of my childhood.



That, by the way, is much more brutalist than the Channel 7 building.

[Ndj]

Watched the public comment section of the city council meeting and tried to guess which of you nerds were speaking.

Anyways, I didn't even particularly dislike the building, it was just obviously not worthy of preservation. Especially when you consider how disingenuous the applicants were.

[Agent Orange]

Originally Posted by mojiferous

Stopping all development in these neighborhoods will do nothing but accelerate inequality - you can't prevent people with money from buying a house and all you're doing is increasing prices while making it harder to build diverse housing options. You're building a system where you lock out the people in the neighborhood that don't have a ton of cash and making it so only people who come in with California-level money can compete.

Every so-called progressive lefty & activist fighting for these things is reinforcing inequality through economics. They're fighting a symptom of a bigger problem and likely making the root problem worse. They're reinforcing old racist systems of segregation and separation instead of giving people the tools to change their lives. They're giving all the power to people with money and not empowering the people without it. That doesn't make you a "snowflake", because it sounds like you mean well and want the best for people in this community, but I think you're working in the wrong direction.

This whole post is so good. Wish more people were pointing this out. I’m not POC, but this is the best summary I’ve read as an outsider. Often activists don’t represent the mainstream opinion of the broader community they advocate for, and frankly left wing activists view economic laws as right wing religious dogma. Despite their best intentions perhaps, nearly all solutions left-NIMBY activists propose to “solve” gentrification and the housing affordability crisis will only accelerate those problems. In my white dominated circles, it's enough to wring your hands and tut about gentrification, all the while buying homes in Clayton or Athmar Park but demanding that the built environment never change after they move in.

Unfortunately, the root cause involves a supply distortion (that we could theoretically fix in Denver through zoning and other reforms, but we'll likely be the last city in the country to do so), but also a demand distortion at the national level (economy, incentives and culture based on home ownership for building wealth, with the expectation that housing prices must increase in real terms indefinitely). We really need to fix both of these levers, but they're both massive political problems that seem impossible to overcome in the near future - one involving thousands of municipalities and counties coming to Jesus. The other would involve Congress and the White House telling home owners to suck it. It's a depressing outlook.

[Crush_Buds]

Holy cow my log-in still works!!!! Remember Eeyore? Okay see ya in a decade!


Wow Denver!

[TakeFive]

By Popular Request: News from Across the Pond

People are panic buying homes as prices skyrocket
May 13, 2021 By Hanna Ziady, CNN Business

In an unexpected twist, the pandemic has benefited house prices. As people were forced to transform houses into offices and classrooms, it didn't take long for a "race for space" to take hold.

Wealthier individuals in several countries have fled cities for larger suburban homes with more outdoor space in the anticipation that they won't need to commute into central offices as much even after the pandemic ends. One trend Harrington has observed in capitals such as London and Paris sees wealthy executives trading their centrally located houses for something bigger but cheaper further out of the city, leaving them with enough cash to buy a small apartment downtown and a holiday home elsewhere.

New housing north of Winchester, England.


All photos sourced by CNN

What about 2nd (vacation) homes?

In the seaside resort town of Ilfracombe in southwest England, Lee Hussell, the director of estate agency Webbers, has sold two properties in recent months for £100,000 ($139,000) above the asking prices.

"In 38 years of buying and selling homes I haven't witnessed a market like it," commented Henry Pryor, a UK buying agent. "There have been stories of buyers paying £10,000 ($14,100) plus just to be able to view a property."

And the rest of the world?

From Auckland to Shanghai, Munich and Miami, house prices appear to be defying gravity.

Cascais, Portugal.

In Portugal, foreigners have been snapping up houses despite not being able to view the properties they're buying. He recently sold an apartment in coastal Cascais, just west of Lisbon, for €3.5 million ($4.2 million) to a South African who has never visited the town.

Houses in Auckland, New Zealand



What about down under?

In New Zealand — where median prices for residential property increased by more than 24% over the year to March to a record high — the government is under pressure to stabilize the market, according to Wendy Alexander, the acting CEO of the Real Estate Institute of New Zealand.

Bubblelicious or Not

Even if/when demand drops it's not like there's an excess of empty homes looking for a warm body.

Additionally, commodities which do tend to be 'volatile' over years are currently in a cyclical uptrend.

Maybe Denver doesn't look so bad?
Keep building apartments; they're going to be needed too.

[mojiferous]

Originally Posted by Agent Orange

Unfortunately, the root cause involves a supply distortion (that we could theoretically fix in Denver through zoning and other reforms, but we'll likely be the last city in the country to do so), but also a demand distortion at the national level (economy, incentives and culture based on home ownership for building wealth, with the expectation that housing prices must increase in real terms indefinitely). We really need to fix both of these levers, but they're both massive political problems that seem impossible to overcome in the near future - one involving thousands of municipalities and counties coming to Jesus. The other would involve Congress and the White House telling home owners to suck it. It's a depressing outlook.

Thanks! And you're so right about this - we're all busy fighting local battles and trying to fix city-level housing issues, but the problem is structural. It keeps getting harder and harder for people to afford housing (at least in growing markets) and the only solution that most people seem to be pursuing is preventing construction locally in the insane hope that it will stop people from moving.

[The Dirt]

Totally agree with mojiferous, Agent Orange, and laniroj. Nobody seems to get filtering either. As more units come online, even so-called luxury, the people that can afford them move there, freeing up their older units. Those units now have now have to compete with the newer units to a smaller buyer pool, so the prices can start to come down. This also takes care of all of the fugly arguments. Once you don't have a captive audience competing for scraps, people will actually pay more for better architecture or pay less for crap architecture. Builders will take notice and actually put more effort into facades.

All that we're doing now is trying to "incentivize" builders to build affordable units through a linkage fee. So, really, this isn't an incentive but a penalty. Builders are encouraged to set aside a few units to be made income-qualified affordable. It would be nice, as already stated by others here, to have actual incentives to do this. Streamline the permitting process, allow more units/density/height, provide more funding to builders. Instead, the market rate units have to subsidize the affordable units and any net benefit is lost. New builds can't compete with existing structures on price. That's the bottom line.

[gopokes21]

Originally Posted by mojiferous

Listen Mr. Texas - Don't speak for us, and most importantly don't assume that Candi CDeBaca and the other wokoso know-nothings speak for all of us. The La Alma historic designation is great because it will give some teeth to efforts to preserve some historic murals.

BUT I think all the efforts to "preserve" neighborhoods across the city like Lincoln Park, Sunnyside, or Globeville are built around a seriously broken assumption: that the people that live in these neighborhoods want to continue to live in tiny crumbling houses and don't want re-investment or better housing opportunities... That living in a neighborhood with few opportunities and infrastructure is better because we're amongst "our own people". This assumption has infected both lefty white people and a lot of POC activists I know - they will argue otherwise, but everyone is desperately fighting to "preserve" redlined neighborhoods instead of fighting to empower the people who live there. They cry about how it "used to be" while purposely forgetting that their neighbors who sold did so for better opportunities - I can introduce you to "sell outs" who were able to sell their old houses in Jefferson Park or Highland and upgrade. People who went to college because their parents were able to walk with a ton of money from their crumbling hovel. People that were able to afford to move to the foothills instead of dealing with chingasos causing problems. The people on the west side deserve to sell their houses and make a ton of money and buy a bigger house in a neighborhood that has better resources and more opportunity. True empowerment for minority communities in Denver is giving the people the tools to improve their life and live where they want - it isn't encasing a bunch of 700 sq. ft. houses in amber and saying "you should live here."

I want to be able to live in Country Club and have people not assume I am the gardener or repair guy. I don't want to only live in one neighborhood. I want Chicano developers building apartments and making millions too. I want the kids in the neighborhood to grow up next to people of all colors and backgrounds so maybe they become less balkanized. I want everyone to be able to afford to build or upgrade a house in whatever neighborhood they want instead of where all the "other XXXXX live". I want fight for lower income folks to have access to grocery stores and parks and good schools and not to lock them into polluted little shacks next to a crumbling highway.

Stopping all development in these neighborhoods will do nothing but accelerate inequality - you can't prevent people with money from buying a house and all you're doing is increasing prices while making it harder to build diverse housing options. You're building a system where you lock out the people in the neighborhood that don't have a ton of cash and making it so only people who come in with California-level money can compete.

Every so-called progressive lefty & activist fighting for these things is reinforcing inequality through economics. They're fighting a symptom of a bigger problem and likely making the root problem worse. They're reinforcing old racist systems of segregation and separation instead of giving people the tools to change their lives. They're giving all the power to people with money and not empowering the people without it. That doesn't make you a "snowflake", because it sounds like you mean well and want the best for people in this community, but I think you're working in the wrong direction.

This was a very personally-directed post. I just said I support the cultural preservation of La Alma, and I think you're assuming a lot of other things, chiefly that preservation and infill can't co-exist.

You can all be as closed-minded as you want on this discussion board, and I never cease to be amazed by how far you can push the bounds of YIMBY absolutism, but you can't deny that many people in La Alma are also for the cultural preservation of La Alma. And in that context it's worth noting the out-of-state REITs paying $10-15 million for 10,000 sf lots in GT and paying close to that on Santa Fe.

Also don't understand why you and others on here present this as a binary choice between two absolutist perspectives. Allow all or nothing, preserve all or nothing, and so on. What's funny is I agree with the idea that we need more supply in order to mitigate displacement, AND that strict preservation will lead to more displacement and less opportunity for all. I am generally supportive of 90% of rezonings and ALL density bonuses. However when I don't support ALL rezonings or the wholesale destruction of Congress Park as frequently advocated on here, then you all pile on with the accusations of racism, liberal snowflake, transplant, etc etc.

[The Dirt]

Originally Posted by gopokes21

the wholesale destruction of Congress Park as frequently advocated on here

Can you please give me an example of who is advocating for that? You know, not in an obviously and blatantly tongue-in-cheek sarcastic manner.

As for the rest of your post, you are literally this meme:

[laniroj]

Originally Posted by gopokes21

Also don't understand why you and others on here present this as a binary choice between two absolutist perspectives. Allow all or nothing, preserve all or nothing, and so on...

Good call out on the absolutism. However, I believe the disconnect for some on this forum is that for folks who really know historic criteria and who have actually done historic preservation, the instances of hostile designations of late really don't meet the well-established criteria. The criteria are a tiny bit subjective, but not really. It's a high bar to meet National Park Standards through our local SHPO and I can't really think of a single hostile designation which met the threshold. Do local politics play into this? Yes - AND THEY ABSOLUTELY SHOULD NOT. Significant structures with significant histories and significant persons involved in their story should be preserved. MANY in Denver were saved outside of all the gems our all-knowing City demolished. There are a few structures remaining in Denver which rise to the preservation and landmark threshold, but not many....if you're not familiar, check out the short form criteria:

https://www.historycolorado.org/colorado...related%20to%20prehistory%20or%20history.

[SirLucasTheGreat]

Minneapolis city council just voted unanimously to eliminate minimum parking requirements. Why can't Denver follow Minneapolis's lead and eliminate single family zoning and parking minimums?

[TakeFive]

Originally Posted by SirLucasTheGreat

Minneapolis city council just voted unanimously to eliminate minimum parking requirements. Why can't Denver follow Minneapolis's lead and eliminate single family zoning and parking minimums?

Minneapolis winters are brutal yet the skiing is lousy.
Too much pain for little to no gain.
Who wants to see Denver lose its cool?


Source: Carrie Colbert

According to reddit:

whileoceaniasleeps
History is full of municipal decisions that were well intended and seemed good at the time, but ended up burdening cities in the long run. I won’t pretend to know either way how this will shake out. It certainly seems good for developers, but the talk of lifting requirements like this being a way for them to pass the savings down seems like it often ends up being just that, talk.

blow_zephyr
Optimistic take: This will make it cheaper for developers to build new housing and commercial buildings, which they will pass on to occupants. Parking will become more difficult, incentivizing people to utilize public transit.

Pessimistic take - Parking is worse everywhere and developers pocket the cost savings to boost their margins.

[TakeFive]

What's Missing?
The Middle
What Middle?
The 'Missing Middle'
Says who?
David Sinkey with Boulder Creek Neighborhoods and Amber Sands with Upland agrees.
Who's Charles Woolley?
Charlie? Charlie through his Saint Charles Town Co. has been creating affordable housing since Hector was a pup.

Such an amazing opportunity to develop both affordable and 'missing middle' housing. Hopefully it happens sooner rather than later.
Watch Video Here.

Beloved — and rare — sunset spot in Westminster has become a battleground between developers and neighbors
Apr 19, 2021 By Michael Booth - The Colorado Sun

n the eyes of Google Maps satellite view, it’s an enormous island of green open space surrounded by aging suburban homes, an RV sales center and the Westminster driver’s license office.

In the eyes of the developer, it’s called “Uplands,” future home to 5,500 people desperately in need of affordable and mixed-price housing, who will walk trails to work and pay taxes to shore up local schools.

Uplands website

[SirLucasTheGreat]

The Thompson Hotel is looking sharp

[gopokes21]

Just want to say that Thompson Hotel is gorgeous. That is all.

[BG918]

Originally Posted by gopokes21

Just want to say that Thompson Hotel is gorgeous. That is all.

Really liking the new infill along Market downtown. 18M/The Fitzgerald, Thompson Hotel and Market Station (less so but still fine). Excited to see these all open soon (this summer?) and more activity along the street.

On the other side of downtown but the Hyatt Centric at 18th & Champa should be opening later this summer too and fills a big hole in that area. It's been hard to tell what it looks like since they've had it wrapped up but if it's anything like the rendering it should be pretty nice and will activate that corner. I want to check out that rooftop bar.