OC Transpo

[TransitZilla]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

This is going to be a bit of a random question. Wondering if some transit nerds here have some insight.

I'm curious why 40' buses are standard and why 35' buses never really caught on. I would think smaller buses would allow for a bit more of a peak surge.

Would this be more sensible as buses go electric and operating costs become cheaper.

The operating cost of transit service is mostly labour (e.g. the driver). There's not much savings in smaller buses, but it can be costly if you need to send extra buses. As Jarret Walker says, "run the biggest bus you will ever need".

https://humantransit.org/2020/04/whats-wrong-with-an-empty-bus.html

[Truenorth00]

I always wonder given our lack of frequency in Ottawa, whether smaller buses would help improve frequencies, especially at peak.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

I always wonder given our lack of frequency in Ottawa, whether smaller buses would help improve frequencies, especially at peak.

Because most cities (especially the big cities that have large orders) buy 40' buses, there is an economy of scale to building 40' buses. As a result, because of the lower manufacturing volume, a 35' bus would likely cost as much if not more than a 40' bus to buy.

Electrification will make the difference in operating cost between a 35 and 40 foot bus even smaller than it is today.

In summary, if a 40' bus costs almost the same to both buy and run, why buy the smaller bus?

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by roger1818

Electrification will make the difference in operating cost between a 35 and 40 foot bus even smaller than it is today.

To a degree. But I was reading over TTC's report on their electric bus trials. And they noted that Proterra's buses being 2.5' longer than standard resulted in 10% less capacity at their bus barns for any all Proterra fleet. This is what has me thinking. In an environment where operating costs are lower overall (because of electrification), does it make sense to acquire smaller buses, get more capacity out of existing infrastructure and then boost frequencies at peak.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

To a degree. But I was reading over TTC's report on their electric bus trials. And they noted that Proterra's buses being 2.5' longer than standard resulted in 10% less capacity at their bus barns for any all Proterra fleet.

That comes down to the design of the bus barns. They will have been designed for buses of a certain length (+/- a certain tolerance). If the bus is even a small amount longer than than the barn was designed for, you will see a significant reduction in the total number of buses that will fit as you can't fit half a bus at the end of the row.

OC Transpo has a similar issue with the bike racks. They need to remove them in the winter to allow more buses to fit inside the garage.

This is what has me thinking. In an environment where operating costs are lower overall (because of electrification), does it make sense to acquire smaller buses, get more capacity out of existing infrastructure and then boost frequencies at peak.

If 35' buses cost about the same as (or more than) 40' buses to both buy and operate, how does using smaller, buses (with less capacity) "get more capacity out of existing infrastructure?" If we want more frequency we could just as easily buy more 40' buses at a similar cost.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

I always wonder given our lack of frequency in Ottawa, whether smaller buses would help improve frequencies, especially at peak.

OC Transpo actually ran these small (30 foot?) buses on low-traffic suburban routes in the 1980s and maybe even the 1990s.

http://www.tomsbuspage.ca/OCTranspo/OC8391.jpg

I haven't seen them in ages, so I guess they were phased out long ago.

I think Ottawa might be the only place I've ever seen them.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by roger1818

If 35' buses cost about the same as (or more than) 40' buses to both buy and operate, how does using smaller, buses (with less capacity) "get more capacity out of existing infrastructure?"

Fit more buses in the barn.

Originally Posted by roger1818

If we want more frequency we could just as easily buy more 40' buses at a similar cost.

I get that the costs are similar. But they aren't the same though. A 35' bus will be marginally cheaper to operate and acquire. Presumably than the only issue for improved service becomes hiring more drivers.

In any event, it was a thought exercise on whether service could be increased for marginal cost increase.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Acajack

OC Transpo actually ran these small (30 foot?) buses on low-traffic suburban routes in the 1980s and maybe even the 1990s.

http://www.tomsbuspage.ca/OCTranspo/OC8391.jpg

I haven't seen them in ages, so I guess they were phased out long ago.

I think Ottawa might be the only place I've ever seen them.

There are places that routinely buy 25-35' buses. Sometimes for lower capacity. And sometimes for their smaller footprint. Necessary in some cities with tighter roads and such.

I was just thinking that electrification will over time save enough on operating costs, that it should be possible to increase the fleet size and boost frequencies. Other than more drivers, the only obstacle then becomes infrastructure. But what if a slightly smaller bus could let us avoid the need for additional infrastructure?

The thing is, post LRT, bus capacity demands must have changed in chunks of the city. I doubt they need 40 ft buses all over Orleans, Kanata and Stittsville to feed the LRTs.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by Acajack

OC Transpo actually ran these small (30 foot?) buses on low-traffic suburban routes in the 1980s and maybe even the 1990s.

http://www.tomsbuspage.ca/OCTranspo/OC8391.jpg

I haven't seen them in ages, so I guess they were phased out long ago.

I think Ottawa might be the only place I've ever seen them.

I remember those buses well. They were horrible to ride on. Very unstable while standing or when having to get off the bus at your stop.

As I recall, they weren't very durable either. They didn't last very long before they had to be retired, maybe not even 10 years.

They were in use in the 1980s.

[Norman Bates]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

I remember those buses well. They were horrible to ride on. Very unstable while standing or when having to get off the bus at your stop.

As I recall, they weren't very durable either. They didn't last very long before they had to be retired, maybe not even 10 years.

They were in use in the 1980s.

Yep, they were like standing on a rocking chair. Rode them from 1982 until the mid-90s. They ran them on locals in the suburbs. OC Transpo also had one 35 foot bus. But I don’t remember riding on it.

[Truenorth00]

Somehow I don't think ride quality is linked to the length of a bus.

Should be noted 35' is actually more standard in Europe for buses.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by Norman Bates

Yep, they were like standing on a rocking chair. Rode them from 1982 until the mid-90s. They ran them on locals in the suburbs. OC Transpo also had one 35 foot bus. But I don’t remember riding on it.

Even pre-pandemic, they often ran empty artics or dds on my suburban Orleans street, while running 40 footers at PM rush hour. These on evenings and weekends would be good for my sanity.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Fit more buses in the barn.

You might fit more buses, but since the shorter buses will have a lower capacity and the barns are optimized for 40' buses, the overall bus capacity stored in the barn (number of buses x capacity of each bus) would be lower since there would be more wasted space.

In reality, as the OTrain lines grow, trains will replace some buses, making barn space less of an issue. Even if it was an issue, it is a minor consideration when deciding to increase the fleet size. By far the two biggest considerations for that are:

1. The cost to purchase (and maintain) the bus, and
2. The labour cost of adding more drivers.

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

I get that the costs are similar. But they aren't the same though. A 35' bus will be marginally cheaper to operate and acquire. Presumably than the only issue for improved service becomes hiring more drivers.

Maybe marginally cheaper to operate, but I am not convinced they would be cheaper to acquire. The price of a product is proportional to the volume produced, and since 40' buses are a huge seller across the continent, they have a huge competitive advantage in price.

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

In any event, it was a thought exercise on whether service could be increased for marginal cost increase.

I don't see it as a "marginal cost increase." The cost savings for buying and operating shorter buses would be miniscule.

Originally Posted by J.OT13

Even pre-pandemic, they often ran empty artics or dds on my suburban Orleans street, while running 40 footers at PM rush hour. These on evenings and weekends would be good for my sanity.

This is a prime example of how (for whatever reason) OC Transpo has troubles managing a variety of different sized buses in its fleet. If they added even smaller buses to the mix, they would likely end up being substituted in on a route that needs a high capacity bus from time to time, further compounding the capacity constraints.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by roger1818

This is a prime example of how (for whatever reason) OC Transpo has troubles managing a variety of different sized buses in its fleet. If they added even smaller buses to the mix, they would likely end up being substituted in on a route that needs a high capacity bus from time to time, further compounding the capacity constraints.

I would argue this is a prime example of an over-reliance on and prioritization of bus capacity over frequency. A city of a million people that is not very dense really shouldn't have any non-express routes running artics or double deckers ever. And post Stage 2, I can't even imagine what routes there would be that should need those.

We need to get past the idea that a bus every half-hour off-peak and every 15 mins at peak is somehow going to foster a transit using culture in Ottawa. They need to find a way to boost frequencies and have a much better base service standard across the city. Nobody should be waiting more than 15 mins for a bus anywhere at any time of day.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

I would argue this is a prime example of an over-reliance on and prioritization of bus capacity over frequency.

I would say it is both.

A city of a million people that is not very dense really shouldn't have any non-express routes running artics or double deckers ever.

I beleive there is an argument for some of the "frequent" and "rapid" routes to use high capacity buses during peak periods.

And post Stage 2, I can't even imagine what routes there would be that should need those.

In the east end for sure. In the west end there will still be a high volume of buses dropping off passengers at Moodie and Algonquin. It also makes sense to use high capacity buses through the greenbelt.

We need to get past the idea that a bus every half-hour off-peak and every 15 mins at peak is somehow going to foster a transit using culture in Ottawa. They need to find a way to boost frequencies and have a much better base service standard across the city. Nobody should be waiting more than 15 mins for a bus anywhere at any time of day.

I agree. A frequency of every 15 minutes should be an off-peak minimum for "Rapid" and "Frequent" routes, and during peak periods they should be running at least every 5 minutes. The problem is OC Transpo has been mandated to prioritize value over service.

[TransitZilla]

Summer schedules seem to be loaded into the Travel Planner, including the new 110:

https://plan.octranspo.com/plan/RouteSch...&ShowOptions=false&TimingPointsOnly=true

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

I would argue this is a prime example of an over-reliance on and prioritization of bus capacity over frequency. A city of a million people that is not very dense really shouldn't have any non-express routes running artics or double deckers ever. And post Stage 2, I can't even imagine what routes there would be that should need those.

Have you ever ridden one of the urban bus routes like the 6, 7, or 12?

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Somehow I don't think ride quality is linked to the length of a bus.

Should be noted 35' is actually more standard in Europe for buses.

The shorter the vehicle, the more jack-rabbity its stops and starts. The shorter the bus, the crappier the physical quality of the ride, which is one of those intangible things that no one measures, but which actually matters. Uncomfortable bus rides turn off riders and potential riders.

[rocketphish]

Councillors question major transit levy increase for some residents in new 'urban' areas
The city said it sent a letter to affected properties on May 3, before final property tax bills were mailed out.

Jon Willing, Ottawa Citizen
Publishing date: May 28, 2021 • 4 hours ago • 4 minute read

Landowners in some parts of Ottawa are receiving sticker shock this week after opening their property tax bills and seeing that public transit levies have skyrocketed.

It shouldn’t have been a big surprise, though, since city council last December was nearly unanimous in its support for bringing hundreds of more properties into the urban transit area.

Still, it was a jolt to at least one councillor who has been fielding calls from constituents wondering why city hall is now demanding huge transit levies compared to previous years, all to pay for OC Transpo.

Gloucester-South Nepean Coun. Carol Anne Meehan called it a “blatant tax grab” that isn’t fair during the COVID-19 pandemic, when some taxpayers might be struggling.

“I knew this was coming. I didn’t understand the extent of the increase,” Meehan said Friday.

Meehan said she didn’t receive a heads-up from city staff that a tax policy decision would seriously impact some of her constituents, including Meehan.

“I will bear the brunt of this. Maybe I should have looked at everything a lot closer,” said Meehan, who’s in her third year on council. “But, as a new councillor, you miss things. You’re human.”

Landowners in the City of Ottawa don’t pay a uniform transit levy on their property tax bills. They pay based on the level of transit service in their communities.

According to the city, in 2020 a landowner in the urban area paid $176 for every $100,000 in property assessment, but a rural landowner with reduced transit service paid $50 for every $100,000 in assessment. Rural landowners who only have access to Para Transpo service paid $14 for every $100,000 in assessment.

The urban transit area is supposed to match the urban policy area in the official plan. Every few years, the city needs to bring more properties into the urban transit area to reflect changes to the urban boundary. The last change was in 2015.

There’s a service standard for the urban transit area where population and road layouts allow. Transit service is supposed to bring 95 per cent of the population within a five-minute walk of the nearest stop or station in peak periods and within a 10-minute walk at other times of the day.

Fare-paying Para Transpo customers benefit from the expanded urban transit area because prices are lower than flat fares in the rural zone.

In November 2020, transit staff told members of the transit commission they needed to bring about 890 properties into the urban transit area starting Jan. 1, 2021. More than 90 per cent of the properties are residential.

The city said it sent a letter to affected properties on May 3, before final property tax bills were mailed out. The letter advised residents about the change in the urban transit boundary and explained the reason for the transit tax change, the city said.

The staff proposal, which included a map of where the urban transit area would be expanded, was on the agenda of two transit commission meetings last November, but it received little attention from members. It was unanimously recommended to council.

When the matter was before council on Dec. 9, there was no discussion and the report was approved with one dissent from Rideau-Vanier Coun. Mathieu Fleury, whose ward wasn’t impacted by the change.

On Friday, Fleury said his opposition was “philosophical” since he doesn’t believe there should be different transit tax levies for Ottawa landowners if everyone, in some way, benefits from public transit. For example, motorists benefit because public transit reduces the number of cars on the roads, Fleury said.

What appears to be an occasional housekeeping exercise has real consequences for some taxpayers.

The largest land mass brought into the urban transit area this time appeared to be in the rural east.

Cumberland Coun. Catherine Kitts, who joined council last October after winning a byelection, said she was trying to make sense of the changes and was planning to talk with transit management.

Kitts said she didn’t receive a warning from staff in her early weeks as councillor and didn’t know about the changes until Meehan recently mentioned it. The expansion of the urban transit area in Cumberland ward includes some “very rural properties” that don’t have access to urban-type transit, Kitts said.

“We’re trying to get to the bottom of this,” Kitts said.

Kitts said she had received one call from a concerned taxpayer by Friday morning, but expected to hear from others.

Chunks, slices and corners of suburban land brought into the urban transit area are around Orléans, Riverside South, Barrhaven, Kanata and Stittsville.

Kitts and Meehan said they didn’t believe the new urban transit areas in their wards were seeing increased transit service.

Meehan said she had asked city manager Steve Kanellakos to look into the matter and had been told he was speaking with Mayor Jim Watson about it.

It will be hard to stop the levy increase since a council decision is usually the conclusion of a matter unless there’s enough support to reconsider it.

There’s an additional challenge: Cash-strapped OC Transpo has already booked the new revenue. The expanded urban transit area will bring in $915,000 more annually.

[email protected]
twitter.com/JonathanWilling

https://ottawacitizen.com/news/local-new...se-for-some-residents-in-new-urban-areas

[Truenorth00]

They get service and don't want to pay?