Little Mountain Redevelopment | U/C

[Changing City]

[QUOTE=Migrant_Coconut;9276638]Detox facility on Clark not good enough? Not instigating, it's an honest question.[/budget for new treatment and addiction services. QUOTE]

There was also a significant increase in the budget for new treatment and addiction services.

Any chance we can move on in this thread from the 'move the addicts out of the neighbourhood' storyline? The temporary modular building is apparently staying around for a while, on a different location on the site. Some of the tenants will still have psychosis, OD, attract police activity, and all the other things that have been mentioned. That's an indirect result of offering an alternative to forcing everybody with problems into the DTES.

[VancouverOfTheFuture]

Originally Posted by Changing City

That's an indirect result of offering an alternative to forcing everybody with problems into the DTES.

yeah, instead of having 1 crime ridden area of Vancouver, may as well have multiples! that'll work!!!

it is also a direct result of moving drug addled criminals into areas where there are families, good citizens, and the people who pay for the housing to be victimized by the same people they just paid to house.

yeah, so lovely isn't it?

[GenWhy?]

I don't think Little Mountain's modular housing building is riddled with "drug addled criminals".

[PaperTiger]

Originally Posted by VancouverOfTheFuture

yeah, instead of having 1 crime ridden area of Vancouver, may as well have multiples! that'll work!!!

it is also a direct result of moving drug addled criminals into areas where there are families, good citizens, and the people who pay for the housing to be victimized by the same people they just paid to house.

yeah, so lovely isn't it?

Yes because no one from this neighborhood has ever ended up with mental illness, drug addiction or homelessness? All of those people just magically appear in the DTES?

And news flash, it does work!! and it costs less than leaving people on the street:

"One study found an average cost savings on emergency services of $31,545 per person housed in a Housing First program over the course of two years. Another study showed that a Housing First program could cost up to $23,000 less per consumer per year than a shelter program." Source:https://endhomelessness.org/resource/housing-first/

Lots of other reading on evidence based solutions on this site as well, though judging by your posts, I doubt you are actually interested in solutions that would improve the lives of "drug addled criminals" so that they could have chance to be "good citizens". https://www.nhceh.org/research-advocacy/evidence-based-practices

[rofina]

Originally Posted by PaperTiger

Yes because no one from this neighborhood has ever ended up with mental illness, drug addiction or homelessness? All of those people just magically appear in the DTES?

And news flash, it does work!! and it costs less than leaving people on the street:

"One study found an average cost savings on emergency services of $31,545 per person housed in a Housing First program over the course of two years. Another study showed that a Housing First program could cost up to $23,000 less per consumer per year than a shelter program." Source:https://endhomelessness.org/resource/housing-first/

Lots of other reading on evidence based solutions on this site as well, though judging by your posts, I doubt you are actually interested in solutions that would improve the lives of "drug addled criminals" so that they could have chance to be "good citizens". https://www.nhceh.org/research-advocacy/evidence-based-practices

I don't want to type an essay, but to make it short.

We have a "Housing Only" policy. Not a "Housing First" policy.

That is, build temp housing and then expect people to overcome decades of drug use and mental health issues while sequestered away in their very own coffins in the sky.

For how much discussion this always takes, Vancouver has always had a solution.

The 4 pillars. It will work. The issue is, we only ever wanted to use one pillar. Its all give - its a broken non reciprocal relationship.

[Sheba]

Little Mountain developer quits fight to keep 2008 sales documents hidden

The developer behind the controversial Little Mountain housing project has abruptly thrown in the towel on efforts to keep hidden the documents surrounding its 2008 purchase of the property from the B.C. government.

...

That order was put on hold, though, when Holborn filed in the B.C. Supreme Court seeking a judicial review of the OIPC decision. But then last month, while the parties were awaiting court dates to hear the matter, Chudnovsky was surprised to hear from Holborn’s lawyers indicating they intended to abandon their fight to keep the full records hidden from the public.

That became official last Friday, when lawyers acting for Holborn filed the notice of discontinuance in B.C. Supreme Court.

...

[whatnext]

The shoe drops on the BC Liberals incredibly — deal on Little Mountain. Why are BC taxpayers stuck offering an interest-free loan on one of the prime building lots in Metro Vancouver?

B.C. government gave developer $211M interest-free loan in Little Mountain land sale
-Purchase and sale agreement sheds light on 2008 deal that saw Holborn Properties acquire lands for $334M
Jeremy Allingham · CBC News · Posted: Aug 31, 2021

After 13 years of questions and uncertainty surrounding the privatization of the Little Mountain lands, details of the deal are finally public.

CBC News has obtained the purchase and sale agreement between the provincial government and developer Holborn Properties after protracted efforts through freedom of information processes.

The contract shows that the sale price was $334 million, but the province says only $89 million has been paid by Holborn.

The B.C. Liberal government that was in power at the time of the 2008 deal gave Holborn $211 million in interest-free loans on an 18-year term, the agreement shows. Interest will not accrue on that loan until Dec. 31, 2026.

Vancouver real estate lawyer Michael Drouillard said that is one aspect of the deal that stands out.

"It does seem unusual on its face to have an interest-free loan for that long period of time," he said....

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-c...n-in-little-mountain-land-sale-1.6159289

[Vin]

Originally Posted by whatnext

The shoe drops on the BC Liberals incredibly — deal on Little Mountain. Why are BC taxpayers stuck offering an interest-free loan on one of the prime building lots in Metro Vancouver?

B.C. government gave developer $211M interest-free loan in Little Mountain land sale
-Purchase and sale agreement sheds light on 2008 deal that saw Holborn Properties acquire lands for $334M
Jeremy Allingham · CBC News · Posted: Aug 31, 2021

After 13 years of questions and uncertainty surrounding the privatization of the Little Mountain lands, details of the deal are finally public.

CBC News has obtained the purchase and sale agreement between the provincial government and developer Holborn Properties after protracted efforts through freedom of information processes.

The contract shows that the sale price was $334 million, but the province says only $89 million has been paid by Holborn.

The B.C. Liberal government that was in power at the time of the 2008 deal gave Holborn $211 million in interest-free loans on an 18-year term, the agreement shows. Interest will not accrue on that loan until Dec. 31, 2026.

Vancouver real estate lawyer Michael Drouillard said that is one aspect of the deal that stands out.

"It does seem unusual on its face to have an interest-free loan for that long period of time," he said....

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-c...n-in-little-mountain-land-sale-1.6159289

Because at the time no other developers could afford or wanted to risk buying that piece of East Van land? The interest-free loan was probably made as an incentive to spur more housing to be built in Vancouver proper. The then Liberals were probably hoping for a second Yaletown miracle there: using foreign money to be invested in this city for further developments. But, as history had shown, the tussle between this City and the developer who wanted to maximize density delayed the development process to the longest time possible. To date, nothing much is developed there. It could have been easier for Holborn to just wait to grab lands along Cambie corridor for larger scale developments during the second OCP stage, or better still: head to the suburb municipalities. Instead, Holborn sunk in 89 mil and hardly got any return. At the end, they still need to return the 211mil to the province. Again the City has screwed everyone.

[djmk]

What I read is that Holburn spent $89 Million dollars 13 years ago and so far has nothing to show for it.

All those people lost their homes over a decade too soon.

5 years left on that loan. yikes

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by Vin

Because at the time no other developers could afford or wanted to risk buying that piece of East Van land? The interest-free loan was probably made as an incentive to spur more housing to be built in Vancouver proper. The then Liberals were probably hoping for a second Yaletown miracle there: using foreign money to be invested in this city for further developments. But, as history had shown, the tussle between this City and the developer who wanted to maximize density delayed the development process to the longest time possible. To date, nothing much is developed there. It could have been easier for Holborn to just wait to grab lands along Cambie corridor for larger scale developments during the second OCP stage, or better still: head to the suburb municipalities. Instead, Holborn sunk in 89 mil and hardly got any return. At the end, they still need to return the 211mil to the province. Again the City has screwed everyone.

LOL, that's laughable. Even in 2008 Main Street was on the rise. This site was located next to it, one of Vancouver's premier parks, a planned new community centre and well-served by transit. The BC Liberal giveaway (especially to what is for all intensive purposes an offshore developer) was ridiculous.

[FarmerHaight]

Originally Posted by Vin

Instead, Holborn sunk in 89 mil and hardly got any return. At the end, they still need to return the 211mil to the province. Again the City has screwed everyone.

How did you manage to twist a handout from the provincial government and a developer sitting on his greedy hands into yet another grievance in your vendetta against the CoV?

[Migrant_Coconut]

^ Indeed. Anybody who thinks the kleptocrats are the good guys is on the wrong side of the argument.

[dreambrother808]

Originally Posted by Vin

Because at the time no other developers could afford or wanted to risk buying that piece of East Van land? The interest-free loan was probably made as an incentive to spur more housing to be built in Vancouver proper. The then Liberals were probably hoping for a second Yaletown miracle there: using foreign money to be invested in this city for further developments. But, as history had shown, the tussle between this City and the developer who wanted to maximize density delayed the development process to the longest time possible. To date, nothing much is developed there. It could have been easier for Holborn to just wait to grab lands along Cambie corridor for larger scale developments during the second OCP stage, or better still: head to the suburb municipalities. Instead, Holborn sunk in 89 mil and hardly got any return. At the end, they still need to return the 211mil to the province. Again the City has screwed everyone.

There is a creativity to this delusion that I almost admire.

[Klazu]

Someone at government made good contribution (and likely other) money from this little corruption. People involved should face a trial for their misuse of their positions.

[Changing City]

Originally Posted by Vin

Because at the time no other developers could afford or wanted to risk buying that piece of East Van land? The interest-free loan was probably made as an incentive to spur more housing to be built in Vancouver proper. The then Liberals were probably hoping for a second Yaletown miracle there: using foreign money to be invested in this city for further developments. But, as history had shown, the tussle between this City and the developer who wanted to maximize density delayed the development process to the longest time possible. To date, nothing much is developed there. It could have been easier for Holborn to just wait to grab lands along Cambie corridor for larger scale developments during the second OCP stage, or better still: head to the suburb municipalities. Instead, Holborn sunk in 89 mil and hardly got any return. At the end, they still need to return the 211mil to the province. Again the City has screwed everyone.

Here's a quote from the first page of this thread (from jlousa) in 2009 "It is noted that while BC Housing and Holburn may have a financial arrangement between them, the City is not party to the details of that agreement. There is some concern that the arrangement may have created certain development expectations for the site, and that those expectations could go beyond what results from the planning process. Through the planning process, City staff will make every effort to understand and work towards achievement of the proponent’s objectives, however, it must be understood that the interests and objectives of the community and the City will need to be balanced with those aspirations."

And if you can be bothered to read the early posts here, you'll see the delays were all Holborn's - including rumours that they were looking to sell the project on in the early days. They took six years to submit the rezoning application. The City weren't the cause of any of the delay. You've consistently tried to blame the City on this thread, and suggest that somehow Holborn had to wrestle the density that they wanted from the City. That's a complete fabrication. It's an 'Alternative fact'.

[GenWhy?]

If this gets repackaged I think it would be a win. The 1-1 social housing unit replacement (I don't think it was a unit type replacement even) is just so atrocious.

[TwoFace]

Every time a — storm resurfaces like: money laundering or interest free loans, Rich Coleman's name keeps coming up.

[Klazu]

Originally Posted by TwoFace

Every time a — storm resurfaces like: money laundering or interest free loans, Rich Coleman's name keeps coming up.

Yeah, that man is so compromised. Same with Christy Clark.

[s211]

I don't know any of the details of the deal, but for people foaming at the mouth over an interest-free loan, you have to have all the details in order to make an informed opinion. Who knows: maybe the price was 10%? 25%? more than the government would have otherwise received? Maybe a higher price offset the lack of interest? Then this would not be the first time that vendor-provided financing had unusual terms.

And yes, maybe the deal does stink to high heaven. Until all the details are available, though, I'm reserving judgement.

[mezzanine]

Originally Posted by s211

I don't know any of the details of the deal, but for people foaming at the mouth over an interest-free loan, you have to have all the details in order to make an informed opinion. Who knows: maybe the price was 10%? 25%? more than the government would have otherwise received? Maybe a higher price offset the lack of interest? Then this would not be the first time that vendor-provided financing had unusual terms.

And yes, maybe the deal does stink to high heaven. Until all the details are available, though, I'm reserving judgement.

FYI, the full contract is online for review, released via FOI after a long fight from Holborn:

https://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/21052222/30-6818-records.pdf

Yeah, and I suppose it’s good to hear what rich Coleman and the BC liberals have to say about this. I look forward to their detailed comments which I am sure is imminent!