HomeDiagramsDatabaseMapsForum About
     

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Regional Sections > United States > Texas & Southcentral > Austin


Reply

 
Thread Tools Display Modes
     
     
  #561  
Old Posted Apr 29, 2021, 7:44 PM
StoOgE StoOgE is offline
Resident Moron
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: New York, NY
Posts: 2,320
Quote:
Originally Posted by lonewolf View Post
the thought that building >300' are needed for density are a complete meme. visit tokyo
[/url]
As someone who has spent a lot of time in Tokyo - I think this is a poor example.

1) Tokyo has extreme height and density near all of its major train stations. I don't think anyone would claim that Shinjuku, Shibuya or Chioda are examples of pastoral environments. The only reason Tokyo isn't littered with 1000' buildings is Earthquake precautions.

2) Even smaller stations/neighborhoods like Shimokita/Nakano are filled with 10-15 story buildings and extremely narrow streets.

Tokyo is a massively dense and massively vertical near its main stations. It also has the best rail and subway network on Earth and largely is a city that is not car dependent at all (well, until midnight :p).
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #562  
Old Posted Apr 29, 2021, 11:19 PM
clubtokyo's Avatar
clubtokyo clubtokyo is offline
クラブトクヨ
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 2,238
Quote:
Originally Posted by StoOgE View Post
As someone who has spent a lot of time in Tokyo - I think this is a poor example.

1) Tokyo has extreme height and density near all of its major train stations. I don't think anyone would claim that Shinjuku, Shibuya or Chioda are examples of pastoral environments. The only reason Tokyo isn't littered with 1000' buildings is Earthquake precautions.

2) Even smaller stations/neighborhoods like Shimokita/Nakano are filled with 10-15 story buildings and extremely narrow streets.

Tokyo is a massively dense and massively vertical near its main stations. It also has the best rail and subway network on Earth and largely is a city that is not car dependent at all (well, until midnight :p).
Agreed! I freaking love the density of Tokyo and the fun underground things. The public transport system is phenomenal.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #563  
Old Posted Apr 30, 2021, 2:43 PM
_Matt _Matt is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 400
delete
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #564  
Old Posted Apr 30, 2021, 2:44 PM
_Matt _Matt is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 400
Quote:
Originally Posted by Urbannizer View Post

But only 2,500 sqft of retail. That's the big thing that Mueller misses is dispersed walkable retail. It's missing small pockets of restaurant or corner shops. At 1+ mile away from HEB or Aldrich street, the south end of the neighborhood might as well not be part of Mueller (parks aside).
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #565  
Old Posted Apr 30, 2021, 5:08 PM
Syndic's Avatar
Syndic Syndic is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Cedar Park, TX
Posts: 1,962
I'm betting there could end up being some retail on the other side, too, which would help make it feel less isolated.

Reply With Quote
     
     
  #566  
Old Posted Apr 30, 2021, 7:50 PM
enragedcamel enragedcamel is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2018
Posts: 520
More highrises outside of downtown, please.

All this "midrise" stuff is so uninspired and boring.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #567  
Old Posted Apr 30, 2021, 7:53 PM
_Matt _Matt is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 400
Quote:
Originally Posted by Syndic View Post
I'm betting there could end up being some retail on the other side, too, which would help make it feel less isolated.

Yep the north half (sliced by the future western extension of McCurdy St) will be Concourse at Mueller. There is some retail shown on slide 5 here:

https://abc.austintexas.gov/attachme...aooObnXIPGdVx0

There was an opportunity to put retail/restaurants around the tower and create a place rather than just build apartments right up to the tower instead of cookie cutter apartments.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #568  
Old Posted Apr 30, 2021, 9:28 PM
wwmiv wwmiv is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Austin -> San Antonio -> Columbia -> San Antonio -> Chicago -> Austin -> Denver -> Austin
Posts: 5,710
Quote:
Originally Posted by enragedcamel View Post
More highrises outside of downtown, please.

All this "midrise" stuff is so uninspired and boring.
This is why the zoning debate is so important.
__________________
Houston: 2.4m (+3.9%) + MSA suburbs: 5.4m (+12%) + CSA exurbs: 200k (+5%)
Dallas: 1.3m (+2%) / FtW: 1.0m (+10%) + suburbs: 6.4m (9%) + exurbs: 566k (+9%)
San Antonio: 1.5m (+6%) + MSA suburbs: 1.2m (+10%) + CSA exurbs: 82k (+3%)
Austin: 994k (+3%) + MSA suburbs: 1.6m (+18%)
Texas (whole): 31.29m (+7%) / Texas (balance): 8.6m (+3%)
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #569  
Old Posted Apr 30, 2021, 11:57 PM
KevinFromTexas's Avatar
KevinFromTexas KevinFromTexas is offline
Meh
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Austin,TX<-->Dripping Springs,TX<-->Birmingham, AL<-->Warm Springs,GA
Posts: 57,205
Mueller should have been denser. It's ridiculous that we're talking about doing away with single family zoning and allowing for upzoning in existing neighborhoods when we turn around and allow new single family in a place like Mueller.
__________________
My girlfriend has a poodle named Kevin.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #570  
Old Posted May 1, 2021, 12:16 AM
StoOgE StoOgE is offline
Resident Moron
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: New York, NY
Posts: 2,320
Quote:
Originally Posted by _Matt View Post
But only 2,500 sqft of retail. That's the big thing that Mueller misses is dispersed walkable retail. It's missing small pockets of restaurant or corner shops. At 1+ mile away from HEB or Aldrich street, the south end of the neighborhood might as well not be part of Mueller (parks aside).
I don't really disagree with this at all. The area around the drafthouse is great. Then there are two strip malls and thats it.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #571  
Old Posted May 1, 2021, 12:17 AM
StoOgE StoOgE is offline
Resident Moron
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: New York, NY
Posts: 2,320
Quote:
Originally Posted by KevinFromTexas View Post
Mueller should have been denser. It's ridiculous that we're talking about doing away with single family zoning and allowing for upzoning in existing neighborhoods when we turn around and allow new single family in a place like Mueller.
Mueller made "sense" when it was scoped out 20 years ago.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #572  
Old Posted May 1, 2021, 3:51 AM
Syndic's Avatar
Syndic Syndic is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Cedar Park, TX
Posts: 1,962
Quote:
Originally Posted by _Matt View Post
There was an opportunity to put retail/restaurants around the tower and create a place rather than just build apartments right up to the tower
How do you know there isn't? It says it's a mixed-use development and there's certainly a good chance that there's a restaurant by the tower. Here's another rendering from Austin Towers. It's hard to tell because of the angle/trees.

Reply With Quote
     
     
  #573  
Old Posted May 1, 2021, 1:44 PM
H2O H2O is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 1,641
Quote:
Originally Posted by KevinFromTexas View Post
Mueller should have been denser. It's ridiculous that we're talking about doing away with single family zoning and allowing for upzoning in existing neighborhoods when we turn around and allow new single family in a place like Mueller.
The 'single family' in Mueller are on lots that are about half the size of typical Austin single family lots, and many have (and all are allowed to have) ADUs, so even the single family lots in Mueller are 2 to 4 times as dense of most neighborhoods in Austin, and only about half the lots are 'single family'. If every neighborhood in Austin looked more like Mueller, we could accommodate the next 50 years of growth projections without expanding the city limits. That is the concept behind eliminating exclusionary single family zoning - allowing up to 4 residential units on any lot, as federal residential funding sources allow.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #574  
Old Posted May 1, 2021, 2:51 PM
wwmiv wwmiv is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Austin -> San Antonio -> Columbia -> San Antonio -> Chicago -> Austin -> Denver -> Austin
Posts: 5,710
Quote:
Originally Posted by H2O View Post
The 'single family' in Mueller are on lots that are about half the size of typical Austin single family lots, and many have (and all are allowed to have) ADUs, so even the single family lots in Mueller are 2 to 4 times as dense of most neighborhoods in Austin, and only about half the lots are 'single family'. If every neighborhood in Austin looked more like Mueller, we could accommodate the next 50 years of growth projections without expanding the city limits. That is the concept behind eliminating exclusionary single family zoning - allowing up to 4 residential units on any lot, as federal residential funding sources allow.
Hell, if Catellus starts developing Dog’s Head within the next 10 years, takes 30 years, and develops it at the same density and design parameters as Mueller, that alone could absorb half of Austin’s MSA’s anticipated population growth over that 40 years.
__________________
Houston: 2.4m (+3.9%) + MSA suburbs: 5.4m (+12%) + CSA exurbs: 200k (+5%)
Dallas: 1.3m (+2%) / FtW: 1.0m (+10%) + suburbs: 6.4m (9%) + exurbs: 566k (+9%)
San Antonio: 1.5m (+6%) + MSA suburbs: 1.2m (+10%) + CSA exurbs: 82k (+3%)
Austin: 994k (+3%) + MSA suburbs: 1.6m (+18%)
Texas (whole): 31.29m (+7%) / Texas (balance): 8.6m (+3%)
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #575  
Old Posted May 2, 2021, 4:33 AM
KevinFromTexas's Avatar
KevinFromTexas KevinFromTexas is offline
Meh
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Austin,TX<-->Dripping Springs,TX<-->Birmingham, AL<-->Warm Springs,GA
Posts: 57,205
Thing is, it's actually somewhat worse to have a smaller lot still with grass and stuff that needs care, but with less space in the yard for a storage shed to store your mower and other lawn equipment. Sure, some of the houses have garages where that can go, but not all of them do...I think? This creates a problem of where to store your mower, or possibly having to decide whether to pay to have your lawn taken care of so you don't need a mower. It starts to get to a point where I question the point of having a yard if you don't even have the space to store the equipment you'll need to maintain it. So, you might as well build row houses or brown stones or even go vertical.

As for building that way all over the city, it won't work unless we become comfortable with the idea of chopping down our city's tree canopy to do it. And that's not something I'd be ok with, particularly as I live in a neighborhood with 150 to 250 year old oak trees that reduce the air temperature by up to 20 degrees in the summer.

All I'm saying is that when the opportunity arises to build dense where it makes sense to, we should. Part of our urban environment is also the natural landscape - namely, old growth trees which themselves present obstacles to building around. And, no, you can't move them all. Mueller was a place that should have had more density. It was an airport. It had no trees to get in the way of development. There are other developments in Austin that will likely take longer than 20 years for build out. I hope we don't go small on those projects. The area along Riverside and even the Dog's Head should be eyeing more density. I just think it takes some of the wind out of the argument about needing more housing and complaining that we don't have it when we think small into the future with available land that is now a clean slate to work with.
__________________
My girlfriend has a poodle named Kevin.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #576  
Old Posted May 2, 2021, 5:11 AM
KevinFromTexas's Avatar
KevinFromTexas KevinFromTexas is offline
Meh
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Austin,TX<-->Dripping Springs,TX<-->Birmingham, AL<-->Warm Springs,GA
Posts: 57,205
This is pretty cool. Mueller development fade.

https://www.facebook.com/bryan.saund...20149923557845
__________________
My girlfriend has a poodle named Kevin.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #577  
Old Posted May 2, 2021, 8:52 PM
H2O H2O is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 1,641
Quote:
Originally Posted by KevinFromTexas View Post
Thing is, it's actually somewhat worse to have a smaller lot still with grass and stuff that needs care, but with less space in the yard for a storage shed to store your mower and other lawn equipment. Sure, some of the houses have garages where that can go, but not all of them do...I think? This creates a problem of where to store your mower, or possibly having to decide whether to pay to have your lawn taken care of so you don't need a mower. It starts to get to a point where I question the point of having a yard if you don't even have the space to store the equipment you'll need to maintain it. So, you might as well build row houses or brown stones or even go vertical.

As for building that way all over the city, it won't work unless we become comfortable with the idea of chopping down our city's tree canopy to do it. And that's not something I'd be ok with, particularly as I live in a neighborhood with 150 to 250 year old oak trees that reduce the air temperature by up to 20 degrees in the summer.

All I'm saying is that when the opportunity arises to build dense where it makes sense to, we should. Part of our urban environment is also the natural landscape - namely, old growth trees which themselves present obstacles to building around. And, no, you can't move them all. Mueller was a place that should have had more density. It was an airport. It had no trees to get in the way of development. There are other developments in Austin that will likely take longer than 20 years for build out. I hope we don't go small on those projects. The area along Riverside and even the Dog's Head should be eyeing more density. I just think it takes some of the wind out of the argument about needing more housing and complaining that we don't have it when we think small into the future with available land that is now a clean slate to work with.
Every non-apartment home in Mueller has a two car garage. Many people end up parking one or more cars on the street because the garages are small, but few people are storing lawn mowers. I gave mine away when I moved here, because it is more efficient to trim my tiny patch with a weed wacker. Our back yard is small, but it was nice to have when my daughter was small. Now that she is bigger, she often plays in the alley or walks to one of the three parks within a block of our house. Of course she is jealous of her friends who live in Windsor Park because they have big back yards with trampolines and swimming pools. On the other hand, her friends like to come to our house so they can play in the alley and rides their bikes around the neighborhood. Their parents actually prefer that, because the streets in Windsor Park are wider, so cars tend to drive faster and there are no sidewalks.

But you are right, Kevin, the Heritage Tree Ordinance, impervious cover limitations, McMansion, private restrictive covenants, minimum parking requirements, etc. all make incrementally increasing the density all over Austin a challenge. I'm all for protecting trees, but I think it is more important to house people than cars. A lot could be done though, if we just eliminated exclusionary zoning and minimum parking. For instance, my 2200 square foot 2 story 3-2 1/2 could pretty easily be converted into two 1100 square foot 2-1's without altering the footprint or increasing impervious cover. If I added a studio apartment above my detached garage, I could have 3 residential units on my 3500 square foot lot. That is more than 36 units net per acre, compared to 8 or less in every other neighborhood in Austin. The rest of Austin could be similarly densified with limited impact to things we care about like trees and pervious surfaces by building up instead of out, and allowing multiple smaller units per lot.

I totally agree that all new development in Austin should be at least as dense as Mueller, if not more so. Unfortunately, other than large multi-family or mixed-use projects, most new neighborhoods look more like the rest of Austin than Mueller thanks to our outdated Land Development Code.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #578  
Old Posted May 3, 2021, 2:35 PM
drummer drummer is offline
World Traveler
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Austin metro area
Posts: 4,734
I think Mueller is a fantastic foundation on which to build for development in Austin. It's not perfect, but it's still pretty darn good. Large open tracts of land (such as Dog's Head) should absolutely utilize this concept and improve on it. I just hope Dog's Head doesn't turn into some commercial or industrial dead zone. Good for business? Yes, potentially. However, it would be a horrible thing for our city if it wasn't heavily mixed-use and dense.

I'm also all for figuring out creative solutions to density and protection of the tree canopy. I don't know the solutions and I know it's not black and white, but these are good challenges to work through and zero-sum approaches aren't the answer.

As for where to store a mower, etc... If there is a small plot of grass, one possible solution is a motor-less 4-blade push-mower. These store easily and take up very little space. A weed eater is also a good solution if you don't scrape the grass too low. I'm also a huge fan of creative storage solutions in small spaces. Utilizing creative storage which hangs from walls or ceilings is great for smaller spaces. Living in Asia taught me a lot about that (granted, I didn't have a yard there...but I did have a family with stuff).
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #579  
Old Posted May 3, 2021, 3:31 PM
jbssfelix's Avatar
jbssfelix jbssfelix is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Central Park
Posts: 384
Quote:
Originally Posted by drummer View Post
I think Mueller is a fantastic foundation on which to build for development in Austin. It's not perfect, but it's still pretty darn good. Large open tracts of land (such as Dog's Head) should absolutely utilize this concept and improve on it. I just hope Dog's Head doesn't turn into some commercial or industrial dead zone. Good for business? Yes, potentially. However, it would be a horrible thing for our city if it wasn't heavily mixed-use and dense.

I'm also all for figuring out creative solutions to density and protection of the tree canopy. I don't know the solutions and I know it's not black and white, but these are good challenges to work through and zero-sum approaches aren't the answer.

As for where to store a mower, etc... If there is a small plot of grass, one possible solution is a motor-less 4-blade push-mower. These store easily and take up very little space. A weed eater is also a good solution if you don't scrape the grass too low. I'm also a huge fan of creative storage solutions in small spaces. Utilizing creative storage which hangs from walls or ceilings is great for smaller spaces. Living in Asia taught me a lot about that (granted, I didn't have a yard there...but I did have a family with stuff).
A lot of folks also pool with their neighbors and just contract out basic lawn care. Sure, a little pricier, but SFH's in Mueller aren't exactly for the frugal pricewise. Then, nobody on the block has to worry about mower (or seed or fertilizer, etc) storage.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #580  
Old Posted May 3, 2021, 3:44 PM
drummer drummer is offline
World Traveler
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Austin metro area
Posts: 4,734
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbssfelix View Post
A lot of folks also pool with their neighbors and just contract out basic lawn care. Sure, a little pricier, but SFH's in Mueller aren't exactly for the frugal pricewise. Then, nobody on the block has to worry about mower (or seed or fertilizer, etc) storage.
Good point - that's also an option, especially for folks who want to enjoy a yard without messing with it themselves. My wife and I enjoy getting our hands dirty too much to go that route.
Reply With Quote
     
     
This discussion thread continues

Use the page links to the lower-right to go to the next page for additional posts
 
 
Reply

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Regional Sections > United States > Texas & Southcentral > Austin
Forum Jump



Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 7:42 AM.

     
SkyscraperPage.com - Privacy Statement - Top

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2026, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.