The Great Canadian Transit Thread

[MalcolmTucker]

Originally Posted by milomilo

The highest since 1969 - it was greater previously when the roads were worse. Perhaps they could have eked out a little more by running another train, but the increase in ridership would not be linear and that would have meant greater subsidy per rider.

I'm not a fan of Canada's railway ownership structure, but it is what it is and trying to run passenger trains on a host railway that is near infinitely more valuable to the economy than 145 passengers a day (!!!! just calculated that wow, lol) is never going to be a viable proposition.

The Calgary-Edmonton dayliner also had to compete with a service unique in Canada - a business class bus. This service still exists and is quite good.

The Red Arrow (not named after the Soviet night train from Leningrad to Moscow I'm sure) launched in 1979 with 7 buses.
"The normal 47-seat configuration will be altered for a maximum of 28 seats [later delivered with 25 seats] to accommodate reclining aircraft seats, folding tables, stainless steel food service section and full washroom facilities."

Red Arrow provided the service in 3.5 hours. (Today the express is 3 hours 20 minutes).

The service provided:"free sandwiches, cheese and crackers, beverages (canned and hot), telephones, four-channel in seat entertainment", and 'laxan' windows which were twice as large.

The main competition was the Calgary-Edmonton air-bus, a rapid air style service which required no reservations and sold tickets in booklets to businesses for Calgary-Edmonton Industrial (Edmonton's old downtown airport).

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

The Calgary-Edmonton dayliner also had to compete with a service unique in Canada - a business class bus. This service still exists and is quite good.

The Red Arrow (not named after the Soviet night train from Leningrad to Moscow I'm sure) launched in 1979 with 7 buses.
"The normal 47-seat configuration will be altered for a maximum of 28 seats [later delivered with 25 seats] to accommodate reclining aircraft seats, folding tables, stainless steel food service section and full washroom facilities."

Red Arrow provided the service in 3.5 hours. (Today the express is 3 hours 20 minutes).

The service provided:"free sandwiches, cheese and crackers, beverages (canned and hot), telephones, four-channel in seat entertainment", and 'laxan' windows which were twice as large.

The main competition was the Calgary-Edmonton air-bus, a rapid air style service which required no reservations and sold tickets in booklets to businesses for Calgary-Edmonton Industrial (Edmonton's old downtown airport).

So when people look back in hindsight, what did they expect the government to do? Ban the competition to force people onto the train? If the bus was way better, and people voted with their wallets, what would the utility of running the train for the trains' sake have been? Rhetorical question, of course.

I'm actually surprised the bus service was as good as described back then. Was the highway twinned? If so I'd guess a bus could actually be faster then than today, given traffic was surely lower.

[Coldrsx]

I used to take the Red Arrow from Edm-Cal and back. It was easier than flying, more comfortable, less time and dropped me off Downtown next to my former workplace and two blocks from home.

It's a much better option than flying and even the train in all likelihood.

[Truenorth00]

That's all over half a century ago. Today you have two metros of 1.4M that are 300 km from downtown-to-downtown. Virtually the perfect setup for rail service to reduce both air traffic and driving. Don't even need high speed rail. A decent high performance rail service should be able to make this a trip time that is somewhat competitive with air (less than 2.5 hrs downtown to downtown) with fares that are competitive with single occupancy driving and make ex-urban commuting from Red Deer possible for upper middle class professionals.

[Coldrsx]

2.5-3 hrs is more likely which is identical to driving.

[MalcolmTucker]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

That's all over half a century ago. Today you have two metros of 1.4M that are 300 km from downtown-to-downtown. Virtually the perfect setup for rail service to reduce both air traffic and driving. Don't even need high speed rail. A decent high performance rail service should be able to make this a trip time that is somewhat competitive with air (little over 2 hrs) with fares that are competitive with driving.

The issue, again, is infrastructure. To get service even as good as the Red Arrow bus would require the CPR corridor to be twinned at billions of dollars. If you're doing that, the option analysis says it requires less government capital subsidy (and possibly none), to instead build HSR.



Between Calgary and Edmonton there is no middle speed option that is middle priced. There is no HFR alternative which is likely to come out ahead.

[Truenorth00]

I am suggesting there is probably a business case to build a new passenger rail corridor that functions both as commuter service and intercity service. This puts more stops on, but still runs faster than buses or cars. I thinking something like 6 stops in between two downtown terminii: YYC, Airdrie, Olds, Red Deer, Wetaskiwin, Leduc/YEG. If trains can run at 110mph, all-stop service would take under 2.5 hrs from downtown Calgary to downtown Edmonton. That is still faster than driving today, given suburban traffic. And only a bit slower than flying. The commuters on either end would vastly bolster ridership. And there's options for faster express services and more commuter stops for a fully separate commuter service.

Admittedly, this would require a few billion in public financing. But it's definitely worthwhile. Could probably recover capital costs too on a long enough horizon given population growth in southern Alberta.

[JHikka]

Presumably driving will take longer and longer as the cities grow and spread and traffic increases, no? At some point rail service will have to be brought in as an alternative option to sitting on packed highways and roads.

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

That's all over half a century ago. Today you have two metros of 1.4M that are 300 km from downtown-to-downtown. Virtually the perfect setup for rail service to reduce both air traffic and driving. Don't even need high speed rail. A decent high performance rail service should be able to make this a trip time that is somewhat competitive with air (less than 2.5 hrs downtown to downtown) with fares that are competitive with single occupancy driving and make ex-urban commuting from Red Deer possible for upper middle class professionals.

I don't disagree with you but what I am pushing back on is when people lament about the decisions that were made in the past, when they really have little relevance. The service you describe, that I agree could be justified, would be something almost entirely different to the service that was rightfully scrapped decades ago. The conversation would be easier if that device had never existed so our vision of what a new service today would look like isn't tainted by it.

[technomad]

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

Between Calgary and Edmonton there is no middle speed option that is middle priced. There is no HFR alternative which is likely to come out ahead.

maglev or bust! edmonton to calgary in 30 mins would be an absolute game changer...

plus gives Japan a chance to showcase a budget version of their tech on a route that requires little to no tunneling.

and who knows.. maybe they'd take payment in oil

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Coldrsx

2.5-3 hrs is more likely which is identical to driving.

Can you actually drive downtown to downtown in 2.5 hrs? And can you maintain that travel time regardless of weather and traffic?

Also, 2.5 hrs would be travel time for an all stop, 110 mph service with little to no grade separation. Put up express services which skip everything but the airports and Red Deer, or faster trains, and you could probably get that trip down to 2 hrs, pretty close to what it would take to drive to the airport on either end from downtown, pre-board and fly between YEG and YYC. I don't even think faster service is needed. A lot of people will pass on air fare, if all it saves them is half an hour on the trip.

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Can you actually drive downtown to downtown in 2.5 hrs?

No. Not without breaking the speed limit.

It's 3 hours in good traffic, although if you were driving from the north of Calgary it would be about 30 minutes faster than from the south, with the difference much greater if traffic ever returns.

[Coldrsx]

3hrs Downtown to Downtown in most traffic/weather situations/conditions.

2.5hrs is non-stop with ideal conditions and has been done many times.

120km/h

[Ozy_Flame]

Originally Posted by technomad

maglev or bust! edmonton to calgary in 30 mins would be an absolute game changer...

plus gives Japan a chance to showcase a budget version of their tech on a route that requires little to no tunneling.

and who knows.. maybe they'd take payment in oil

The budding Hydrogen Hub that was announced this week has Japan and South Korea as some of the first customers for Alberta-based hydrogen.

Maybe there is some trade opportunities there for providing them energy, and we get help from them to implement fantastically reliable, safe, and modern rail transportation options

[Coldrsx]

H 1.0008 in exchange for MagLev Shinkansen

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by milomilo

No. Not without breaking the speed limit.

It's 3 hours in good traffic, ...

Which is why I say that 2.5 hrs is competitive. Essentially, the slowest train on a dedicated passenger rail corridor is as quick as an ideal drive. And there's options to speed the train up too. I'm just being conservative and basing the math on a full speed (110mph) non-HSR, non-grade separated, non-electrified service.

Originally Posted by milomilo

...although if you were driving from the north of Calgary it would be about 30 minutes faster than from the south, with the difference much greater if traffic ever returns.

If you're leaving from the north, your train ride is shorter too. You'd be leaving from YYC or the Airdrie stations.

[Razor]

This is interesting..Proposed tram between Ottawa and Gatineau. I think it's older news, but was on the local news last night due to the budget.

https://ottawa.ctvnews.ca/budget-2021-ncc-to-study-ottawa-gatineau-tram-possibilities-1.5393692

https://ottawacitizen.com/news/local-new...a-considers-sparks-street-tunnel-optimal

[ssiguy]

Originally Posted by Ozy_Flame

The budding Hydrogen Hub that was announced this week has Japan and South Korea as some of the first customers for Alberta-based hydrogen.

Maybe there is some trade opportunities there for providing them energy, and we get help from them to implement fantastically reliable, safe, and modern rail transportation options

Great news but our main hydrogen competitor, Australia, is WAY ahead of us. They have already signed hydrogen agreements with those 2 countries and very recently with Germany. They are already working with the Japanese on hydrogen carrying cargo ships and their infrastructure for Green hydrogen production is years ahead of ours.

Hydrogen is a game we can't afford to lose and even though we have some of the world's premier hydrogen/fuel cell developers we are doing pitifully poor on actually bringing that hydrogen to market in both production and infrastructure.

[FrAnKs]

Here are some fresh news for you about Quebec city's Tramway system:

Source: https://www.tvanouvelles.ca/2021/04/28/trois-decrets-adoptes-pour-le-tramway-de-quebec-1

The Legault government has adopted three decrees on the Quebec City tram network that give the green light to continue work.

The three legislative pieces were published in the Gazette officielle du Québec on Wednesday.

The first decree grants the City of Quebec "a subsidy of a maximum amount of $ 1.2 billion" for its structuring network. The Quebec Minister of Transport is therefore giving the green light to the granting of the subsidy from the federal government. This grant is in fact granted under the Integrated Bilateral Agreement relating to the Investing in Canada infrastructure program between the Government of Quebec and the Government of Canada.



The decree adds that this amount includes $ 92 million "in the event that additional project costs are deemed eligible under the Investing in Canada infrastructure program and subject to the approval of the Treasury Board of Canada."

The second decree releases funds that will allow the City to continue its planning work. This time it comes from the Government of Quebec, which has pledged $ 1.8 billion. This sum is for a maximum amount of $ 200.3 million, "in the form of repayment of debt service, to which costs and interest will be added, for the pursuit by the City of Quebec of the planning activities of the Tramway project of the Structuring Public Transport Network of Quebec City ”.

This amount is part of the $ 215.3 million announced in 2018 by the Liberals. So far, $ 15 million had been released for planning.

At the same time, $ 419.1 million was also given to the City, this time for preparatory work.

Finally, a third decree concerns the awarding of contracts for the construction of the network and gives the City some latitude in this area.

At the office of the mayor of Quebec, we refused to comment or explain how these three decrees will allow the project to move forward. The press secretary François Moisan indicated that Régis Labeaume will answer questions on Thursday, on the sidelines of a public activity which is planned.

[ssiguy]

Is the QC tramway actual rapid transit or just a glorified streetcar?