VIA Rail

[swimmer_spe]

When Amtrak put's it's plan into place, the train that they will be sending to Toronto from Chicago, will it replace an existing Via run or add one more to the overall schedule?

[Djeffery]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

When Amtrak put's it's plan into place, the train that they will be sending to Toronto from Chicago, will it replace an existing Via run or add one more to the overall schedule?

Would they be allowed to offer services through Ontario do cabotage laws apply to them as well? Can they pick up Toronto bound passengers from southern Ontario stops, or can they only drop off US-originating passengers? Likewise in the other direction, can I get on their train in Toronto and get off in London, or are they only allowed to pickup US bound passengers in Ontario? I used to see an Amtrak train goin through London years ago, but I don't remember how the rules worked. Maybe they are allowed to partner up with VIA in a codeshare type arrangement?

[manny_santos]

Originally Posted by Djeffery

Would they be allowed to offer services through Ontario do cabotage laws apply to them as well? Can they pick up Toronto bound passengers from southern Ontario stops, or can they only drop off US-originating passengers? Likewise in the other direction, can I get on their train in Toronto and get off in London, or are they only allowed to pickup US bound passengers in Ontario? I used to see an Amtrak train goin through London years ago, but I don't remember how the rules worked. Maybe they are allowed to partner up with VIA in a codeshare type arrangement?

From my understanding the old Toronto-Chicago train through London also doubled as one of VIA’s Toronto-Stratford-London-Sarnia runs, but using Amtrak equipment. This was prior to 9/11 though; I’m not sure if that changed after. That train operated up until 2004.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Djeffery

Would they be allowed to offer services through Ontario do cabotage laws apply to them as well? Can they pick up Toronto bound passengers from southern Ontario stops, or can they only drop off US-originating passengers? Likewise in the other direction, can I get on their train in Toronto and get off in London, or are they only allowed to pickup US bound passengers in Ontario? I used to see an Amtrak train goin through London years ago, but I don't remember how the rules worked. Maybe they are allowed to partner up with VIA in a codeshare type arrangement?

I would assume it would operate much like Maple Leaf does. It does stop and pick up/drop off people within Canada.

[ghYHZ]

Originally Posted by Djeffery
Would they be allowed to offer services through Ontario do cabotage laws apply to them as well? Can they pick up Toronto bound passengers from southern Ontario stops, or can they only drop off US-originating passengers? Likewise in the other direction, can I get on their train in Toronto and get off in London, or are they only allowed to pickup US bound passengers in Ontario? I used to see an Amtrak train goin through London years ago, but I don't remember how the rules worked. Maybe they are allowed to partner up with VIA in a codeshare type arrangement?

You won't find a new Amtrak operated Chicago-Toronto train doing business in Canada. It will be a set up like the old 'International' was: a VIA operated train in Canada with VIA crews (but possibly using Amtrak equipment like the Maple Leaf). In the first few years of the International...Amtrak contributed one set of equipment and VIA the other. Back then....you could find Amtrak passengers boarding a VIA train in Chicago Union Station to ride locally to say Kalamazoo....but the crew was Amtrak. Here's the International at Port Huron in Jan '83. That day it had an Amtrak F40 locomotive with VIA Tempo cars. VIA and Amtrak crews changed in Port Huron.



In later years the the International used all Amtrak equipment including 'Superliners'

The Maple Leaf uses Amtrak equipment but it is a VIA operated train while in Canada. The VIA crew gets off at Niagara Falls ON and the Amtrak crew gets on. Even the Snack Bar food is changed out.....Coke in Canada.....Pepsi on Amtrak!

The Cascades to Vancouver and the Adirondack to Montreal are different. They are entirely Amtrak trains while in Canada operated by Amtrak crews. No VIA involvement. The Cascade has no passenger stops between the Border and Vancouver. The Adirondack has one stop at St. Lambert but this will be eliminated if the CBSA/CBP Customs Pre-clearance facility open in Central Station.

[ghYHZ]

Originally Posted by ghYHZ

The VIA crew gets off at Niagara Falls ON and the Amtrak crew gets on. Even the Snack Bar food is changed out.....Coke in Canada.....Pepsi on Amtrak!

And I remember the interaction with the VIA crew vs: the Amtrak crew: Day and Night!

I got a snack and that Coke between Toronto and Niagara Falls from a pleasant service orientated VIA Attendant. Later on that afternoon I went back again and asked for a Coke. "ain't got Coke".....and not even a "can I offer you a Pepsi instead?" from the Amtrak Attendant. I did get a Pepsi and he even asked if I wanted my change!

[manny_santos]

Originally Posted by ghYHZ

The Cascades to Vancouver and the Adirondack to Montreal are different. They are entirely Amtrak trains while in Canada operated by Amtrak crews. No VIA involvement. The Cascade has no passenger stops between the Border and Vancouver. The Adirondack has one stop at St. Lambert but this will be eliminated if the CBSA/CBP Customs Pre-clearance facility open in Central Station.

In the past the Cascades train had one stop between Vancouver and the border - New Westminster. The station building is still there, it's the BNSF building on Brunette Ave in Sapperton and it was previously the Great Northern station before Amtrak existed. Amtrak trains still pass this station but from my understanding they have not stopped there since the 1980s.

My understanding is that Great Northern also had a station in White Rock, but it was not used by Amtrak when they took over in 1971.

If high speed rail ever comes to the Cascades corridor, I think there should be at least one station between Vancouver and the border, so people in the Fraser Valley don't have to travel into Vancouver or drive across the border to access the train. Someplace that can connect with SkyTrain would be ideal; there is a SkyTrain station (Braid) just north of the old Great Northern station in New West, and Highway 1 is right there, so that general area could work. Someplace in Surrey could also work.

[ghYHZ]

Originally Posted by manny_santos

If high speed rail ever comes to the Cascades corridor, I think there should be at least one station between Vancouver and the border, so people in the Fraser Valley don't have to travel into Vancouver or drive across the border to access the train. Someplace that can connect with SkyTrain would be ideal; there is a SkyTrain station (Braid) just north of the old Great Northern station in New West, and Highway 1 is right there, so that general area could work. Someplace in Surrey could also work.

Then Pre-Clearance in Pacific Central would no longer work. You would have to have a facility at each stop.....or just do it the old way once each direction: CBP at Blaine and CBSA at White Rock

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by ghYHZ

Then Pre-Clearance in Pacific Central would no longer work. You would have to have a facility at each stop.....or just do it the old way once each direction: CBP at Blaine and CBSA at White Rock

Why not just have additional customs facilities at those stations? They do this on the channel tunnel, there are two stations outside of London.

[ghYHZ]

Originally Posted by milomilo

Why not just have additional customs facilities at those stations? They do this on the channel tunnel, there are two stations outside of London.

Then it doubles or triples the cost to provide CBP/CBSA at additional stations. Trains used to stop at the border each way but to speed this up they started to do it at a common facility at Pacific Central. Just before Covid..... US Immigration was done at Pacific Central but the trains still stopped at Blaine for Customs. The Customs stop is to be eliminated also once the trains start running again so hopefully a few more minutes can be saved between Vancouver and Seattle.

If you want additional stops between the border and Vancouver...might as well go back to the old way of several years ago and just do it once at White Rock northbound....or Blaine southbound. No point of having a pre-clearance facility.

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by ghYHZ

Then it doubles or triples the cost to provide CBP/CBSA at additional stations. Trains used to stop at the border each way but to speed this up they started to do it at a common facility at Pacific Central. Just before Covid..... US Immigration was done at Pacific Central but the trains still stopped at Blaine for Customs. The Customs stop is to be eliminated also once the trains start running again so hopefully a few more minutes can be saved between Vancouver and Seattle.

If you want additional stops between the border and Vancouver...might as well go back to the old way of several years ago and just do it once at White Rock northbound....or Blaine southbound. No point of having a pre-clearance facility.

If you're spending the money on HSR then the additional cost of customs can't be too significant, we have border controls on pretty insignificant roads on the border. Plus really the staffing shouldn't be much greater, since the load will be lessened at the central stations. And if it means more passengers, even better.

[ghYHZ]

Originally Posted by milomilo

If you're spending the money on HSR then the additional cost of customs can't be too significant, we have border controls on pretty insignificant roads on the border.

That's the way it was always done on the train.....at the border. Just do it that way again and you can have as many stops as you want between White Rock and Vancouver-Pacific Central.

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by ghYHZ

That's the way it was always done on the train.....at the border. Just do it that way again and you can have as many stops as you want between White Rock and Vancouver-Pacific Central.

But you'd need to stop the train? It just seems antiquated and slow to do it that way.

[ghYHZ]

Originally Posted by milomilo

But you'd need to stop the train? It just seems antiquated and slow to do it that way.

And that is why they moved it to Pacific Central Station

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by milomilo

Why not just have additional customs facilities at those stations? They do this on the channel tunnel, there are two stations outside of London.

It is over 100 km (as the crow flies) from St Pancras International station to the Channel Tunnel entrance, where as it is less than 40 km from Pacific Central Station to the Peace Arch crossing.

Also, metro London has a population of over 14 million, where as the entire Lower Mainland has a population of less than 3 million.

Originally Posted by milomilo

If you're spending the money on HSR then the additional cost of customs can't be too significant, we have border controls on pretty insignificant roads on the border. Plus really the staffing shouldn't be much greater, since the load will be lessened at the central stations. And if it means more passengers, even better.

With HSR, you want to minimize the number of stops, to allow the train time to get up to speed and cover some distance at that speed. The faster the train, the larger the time penalty for additional stops.

The reality is it is proving a struggle to get the money to do the upgrades on the Canadian portion of the route to get up to conventional train speeds. Lets not put the cart before the horse here. Before talking about adding a second station in Greater Vancouver, lets focus on getting travel times competitive with driving and increase the number of daily departures.

[milomilo]

I agree talk of HSR in Vancouver is very early. But if it were to be built, then the idea of a second station isn't outlandish, especially on cost grounds since we'd be talking a project in the tens of billions. There are two non central stations on UK HS1, and similarly there are suburban stations on HS2 at Old Oak Common and Birmingham airport. Obviously the downtown station is by far the most important, but having a second station that is more accessible to people not living downtown with lots of parking is a pretty common strategy, so I don't think the idea should be dismissed just because we'll add a few more border guards to a mega project.

I honestly see HSR in Vancouver or Calgary as more realistic than the talk of "slow daily trains using existing track" in those places, or to Whistler or anywhere else. If we are to build a new rail project in Canada today it has to be viable from the get go, so that it has the ridership base to maintain its investment. If the train is worse in everyway than the alternatives (plane, car or bus), then its ridership will be negligible and there will be no case for incremental improvement.

Something less than HSR may well be good enough to begin with, but I think the threshold of investment for a viable Vancouver line would be pretty high. You'd need extensive tunnelling/bridging/expropriation in Vancouver to get a dedicated ROW in, and that alone won't be cheap.

[casper]

Originally Posted by milomilo

I agree talk of HSR in Vancouver is very early. But if it were to be built, then the idea of a second station isn't outlandish, especially on cost grounds since we'd be talking a project in the tens of billions. There are two non central stations on UK HS1, and similarly there are suburban stations on HS2 at Old Oak Common and Birmingham airport. Obviously the downtown station is by far the most important, but having a second station that is more accessible to people not living downtown with lots of parking is a pretty common strategy, so I don't think the idea should be dismissed just because we'll add a few more border guards to a mega project.

I honestly see HSR in Vancouver or Calgary as more realistic than the talk of "slow daily trains using existing track" in those places, or to Whistler or anywhere else. If we are to build a new rail project in Canada today it has to be viable from the get go, so that it has the ridership base to maintain its investment. If the train is worse in everyway than the alternatives (plane, car or bus), then its ridership will be negligible and there will be no case for incremental improvement.

Something less than HSR may well be good enough to begin with, but I think the threshold of investment for a viable Vancouver line would be pretty high. You'd need extensive tunnelling/bridging/expropriation in Vancouver to get a dedicated ROW in, and that alone won't be cheap.

If a second station is build it should be build at the boarder. Have a station building with both a Canadian and a US entrance and passenger boarding on both side.

Domestic "local train" from the Fraser valley Surrey that terminates on the Canadian side.

Cascadia trains stop on the south side of the station.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by milomilo

Something less than HSR may well be good enough to begin with, but I think the threshold of investment for a viable Vancouver line would be pretty high. You'd need extensive tunnelling/bridging/expropriation in Vancouver to get a dedicated ROW in, and that alone won't be cheap.

And here is where I disagree. People have the misconception that HSR is as fast as flying but as cheap as driving. In reality HSR is almost as expensive as flying, thus only competes with airlines. If we also want to get cars off the road, we need a more affordable intercity rail service. There is no reason why we can't have both services, but the idea that we only need HSR is misguided.

[manny_santos]

Originally Posted by casper

If a second station is build it should be build at the boarder. Have a station building with both a Canadian and a US entrance and passenger boarding on both side.

Domestic "local train" from the Fraser valley Surrey that terminates on the Canadian side.

Cascadia trains stop on the south side of the station.

I see nothing wrong with that idea, especially if a station went in around White Rock.

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by roger1818

And here is where I disagree. People have the misconception that HSR is as fast as flying but as cheap as driving. In reality HSR is almost as expensive as flying, thus only competes with airlines. If we also want to get cars off the road, we need a more affordable intercity rail service. There is no reason why we can't have both services, but the idea that we only need HSR is misguided.

I'm not sure if you actually disagree with my intended meaning - something less good than HSR may be viable. But I think to reach the threshold where rail can replace cars or planes, it will need significant investment on the Vancouver - Seattle corridor.

I had a look at the Amtrak Cascades schedule. At first I was surprised at a journey time of 3hr30, but then I realized I was looking at a bus. The train is over 4 hours - not good enough. And there are 4 buses a day, and 2 trains.

So just to be competitive with Amtrak's own bus, the train timing needs to be increased by at least an hour and the frequency at least doubled. Presumably with the existing infrastructure, there is no way to run more trains.

So your investment to get anything viable is going to be large regardless.