CHICAGO: ORD & MDW discussion

[lakeshoredrive]

Why is there no Terminal 4? Shouldn't Terminal 5 be 4?

[Steely Dan]

Terminal 4 was the old temporary international terminal in the 1st for floor of the parking garage that was used while they were building T5. It's obviously no longer used.

[jonesrmj]

Originally Posted by lakeshoredrive

Why is there no Terminal 4? Shouldn't Terminal 5 be 4?

When Terminal 1 was being reconstructed into the current satellite concourse design in the 80s for United, Terminal 4 used to be the old temporary international terminal at O'Hare. It was located on the bottom floor of the parking garage, and buses would transport people from there to the planes. Terminal 5, the current international terminal, would later be built in the 90s, and when Terminal 4 closed, they didn't rename Terminal 5 for whatever reason.

[F1 Tommy]

Originally Posted by Chicagoguy

Delta does have a base of flight attendants here in Chicago, so we aren't completely overlooked.

With Alaska Airlines joining the Oneworld Alliance, does that mean Alaska with operate out of T3 as well?

Yes Delta does completely overlook ORD. They are forced to come to ORD due to Skyteam and also try to pull traffic out of Chicago for the ATL hub and to a lesser degree the MSP/DTW hubs.


Alaska Airlines is at G concourse with Jet Blue, both of wich just moved there.

[N830MH]

Originally Posted by Chicagoguy

I think Delta's move to T5 opens up a lot of exciting possibilities since it will continue to have a separate immigration processing facility. Years ago Delta had been rumored to be considering flights from Chicago to LHR. This move could eventually open up additional possibilities for Delta.

Is it also safe to assume that KLM, Air France, Aeroméxico and Korean Air will continue to operate out of T5 since they are members of the SkyTeam Alliance.

Didn't Delta who flew ORD-CDG before? Delta who tried in the past and it did not work. Due to low demand.

[k1052]

Originally Posted by F1 Tommy

Yes Delta does completely overlook ORD. They are forced to come to ORD due to Skyteam and also try to pull traffic out of Chicago for the ATL hub and to a lesser degree the MSP/DTW hubs.


Alaska Airlines is at G concourse with Jet Blue, both of wich just moved there.

Yeah they are kind of stuck in purgatory since they don't want to expand into a full hub at ORD but can't ignore the market or their alliances. I don't really see a way out from that unless the earth just suddenly swallows up DTW.

[Tom In Chicago]

So this might be a little off-topic, but I don't post at Airliners.net and haven't found any quick-reference information related to the Boeing 737-MAX return to flight and figured there are lots of enthusiasts here with a bit of knowledge and, well anyhow. . .

I've been flying to/from Laredo Texas over the last year just about every month as my SO has been taking care of her ageing parents who live down there, and ever since covid the airlines have changed their schedules I've had to makes some adjustments in who I fly. . . ideally I fly United via Houston (IAH) from O'Hare (ORD), but their schedules have been less than ideal for me based upon my time off from work and whatnot, so I've been flying American via Dallas (DFW) on the last 14 trips I've taken. . . Now that covid seems to be waning a bit there has been an increase in ridership and the schedules appear to have changed again and I'm adjusting my itineraries back to United. . .

On my scheduled trip in May I've received a notification from United that my flights between Chicago and Houston will be on Boeing 737-MAX aircraft. . . this is kinda surprising as I haven't really been following the news about the MAX returning to service and am wondering how widespread this is among carriers with MAX aircraft in their fleet? I'm excited to fly on one as I've only had the opportunity once before to fly on a MAX plane back before it was taken out of service. . . I understand why they wouldn't want to make this a huge news story as there's nothing better to scare away customers than to remind people of an airplane disaster scenario. . .

Anyhow, thoughts?

Also wondering if there's any news on that ATS. . . seems like they're radio silent on how that's going. . .

. . .

[jonesrmj]

Originally Posted by Tom In Chicago

So this might be a little off-topic, but I don't post at Airliners.net and haven't found any quick-reference information related to the Boeing 737-MAX return to flight and figured there are lots of enthusiasts here with a bit of knowledge and, well anyhow. . .

I've been flying to/from Laredo Texas over the last year just about every month as my SO has been taking care of her ageing parents who live down there, and ever since covid the airlines have changed their schedules I've had to makes some adjustments in who I fly. . . ideally I fly United via Houston (IAH) from O'Hare (ORD), but their schedules have been less than ideal for me based upon my time off from work and whatnot, so I've been flying American via Dallas (DFW) on the last 14 trips I've taken. . . Now that covid seems to be waning a bit there has been an increase in ridership and the schedules appear to have changed again and I'm adjusting my itineraries back to United. . .

On my scheduled trip in May I've received a notification from United that my flights between Chicago and Houston will be on Boeing 737-MAX aircraft. . . this is kinda surprising as I haven't really been following the news about the MAX returning to service and am wondering how widespread this is among carriers with MAX aircraft in their fleet? I'm excited to fly on one as I've only had the opportunity once before to fly on a MAX plane back before it was taken out of service. . . I understand why they wouldn't want to make this a huge news story as there's nothing better to scare away customers than to remind people of an airplane disaster scenario. . .

Anyhow, thoughts?

Also wondering if there's any news on that ATS. . . seems like they're radio silent on how that's going. . .

. . .

The Max was recertified to fly towards the end of 2020, and since then, many airlines have brought it back into service (including American, United, Alaska, Southwest)

I'll try to sum up the Max fiasco as best as I can, but basically the two crashed that happened were due to false data from the sensors which triggered MCAS and the pilots couldn't control it. MCAS was created because the size of the engines and how they were located further up on the wing on the 737 Max could cause the plane to stall, so MCAS was designed to push the plane down in the event of a stall.

The difference this time around is that MCAS relies on more sensors now, and pilots have the training and ability to easily override it if they have to.

[Tom In Chicago]

^Thanks. . . I know the history. . . just wasn't sure the timeframes as none of my AA flights between ORD and DFW have been on MAX planes (mostly Airbus A321), so it was a surprise to see the MAX on my ORD to IAH flights. . .

One thing the United explainer notes is that the MAX planes will be flying with dual sensors rather than a single sensor as they claim was being used in their MCAS systems. . . among other things. . .

Buried deep in the FAQ United notes that the MAX flights went back into service on February 11th. . . I wonder how smoothly the rollout of the augmented aircraft has gone. . .

. . .

[Mr Downtown]

Prior to the current big master plan, there seems to have been some thought that there'd be a future Terminal 4 that would replace the heating and cooling plant next to Terminal 3. The temporary terminal that was set up in the parking garage from 1984-1993 was called Terminal 4. In part to avoid confusion, and in part because there might someday be a new terminal south of Terminal 3, the new international terminal was called Terminal 5 when it opened.

[F1 Tommy]

Originally Posted by Tom In Chicago

^Thanks. . . I know the history. . . just wasn't sure the timeframes as none of my AA flights between ORD and DFW have been on MAX planes (mostly Airbus A321), so it was a surprise to see the MAX on my ORD to IAH flights. . .

One thing the United explainer notes is that the MAX planes will be flying with dual sensors rather than a single sensor as they claim was being used in their MCAS systems. . . among other things. . .

Buried deep in the FAQ United notes that the MAX flights went back into service on February 11th. . . I wonder how smoothly the rollout of the augmented aircraft has gone. . .

. . .

The main problem with the original max was the single sensor, if it failed you had to turn the auto pilot off and hand fly the aircraft. US majors mainline crews had no issue and understood that although they did not like the fact that Boeing did not highlight that enough in the training. The Ethiopian 737 crew did turn the auto pilot off but turned it back on. The main issue with that crash was a bird strike damaged the Pitot tube causing incorrect readings to MCAS. The crews in both crashes were trained to mainly fly with Auto Pilot on and they would do almost everything in their power to do that. That mentality helped cause both crashes as if they had turned the auto pilot off the MCAS would have been disabled, although Boeing did not highlight enough in training how important that could be. The software did have alot of small issues that were found but turning off the auto pilot and keeping it off when a sensor failed would have saved both flights.

[kbud]

What happens in T5 once Delta moves in, Southwest is operating at their current level, or even a little expanded, but before the rest of the T2 construction is complete? T5 will be a madhouse, and for several years international flights won’t be able to be expanded at O’Hare because T5 will be so limited with space. This will be an issue for 5 years assuming the new T2 is operational in 2028 (its Chicago, we know it won’t). I would expect demand at O’Hare to be higher in 2023 and 24 (pre-Covid levels), many of the airlines have said most of their fleet will be coming back online this summer.

[OrdoSeclorum]

Originally Posted by kbud

What happens in T5 once Delta moves in, Southwest is operating at their current level, or even a little expanded, but before the rest of the T2 construction is complete? T5 will be a madhouse, and for several years international flights won’t be able to be expanded at O’Hare because T5 will be so limited with space. This will be an issue for 5 years assuming the new T2 is operational in 2028 (its Chicago, we know it won’t). I would expect demand at O’Hare to be higher in 2023 and 24 (pre-Covid levels), many of the airlines have said most of their fleet will be coming back online this summer.

I think they are going to construct the two new satellite terminals before they tear down the old terminal 2 building. That's a lot of gates. I think the new Global Terminal is only going to have 11 or 12 gates or something like that, so most of the new gates--for the non-wide body aircraft--will be in the satellites.

[jonesrmj]

Originally Posted by OrdoSeclorum

I think they are going to construct the two new satellite terminals before they tear down the old terminal 2 building. That's a lot of gates. I think the new Global Terminal is only going to have 11 or 12 gates or something like that, so most of the new gates--for the non-wide body aircraft--will be in the satellites.

Yes. Once the Terminal 5 expansion completes (hopefully this year like originally scheduled), Delta will move there and the Global Terminal satellite concourses will later be built while Terminal 2 is demolished. The satellite concourse furthest west will be narrow body gates, and the satellite concourse being built south of United's satellite concourse will have wide body gates. Then once the satellite concourses are complete, construction for the Global terminal should start. SOM (which is designing the satellite concourses) has yet to release public renderings of them, so hopefully they will soon!

[kbud]

So Delta won’t move into T5 until the satellite concourses are finished? I thought I read that Delta will move once the T5 expansion is complete. There is no way the T5 expansion will finish this year. By the looks of it, I think the earliest would be at the end of 2022. Maybe they’ll time it to open up with the updated people mover...

I’m surprised they still have not started work on the satellite terminals if they plan to start construction before they tear down T2.

[jonesrmj]

Originally Posted by kbud

So Delta won’t move into T5 until the satellite concourses are finished? I thought I read that Delta will move once the T5 expansion is complete. There is no way the T5 expansion will finish this year. By the looks of it, I think the earliest would be at the end of 2022. Maybe they’ll time it to open up with the updated people mover...

I’m surprised they still have not started work on the satellite terminals if they plan to start construction before they tear down T2.

No, Delta moves to T5 once the expansion completes. I was saying that after Delta moves to T5, the satellite concourses will be constructed and T2 will be demolished.

Also, I'm surprised everyone thinks T5 won't open till late 2022. This broke ground back in 2019, and interior build out permits have apparently been issued. And doesn't the construction progress go pretty quick once the framework is progressing, or am I missing something?

Originally Posted by k1052

T5 expansion is progressing even though there are basically no pics of it from the construction side of things. If more people were flying we'd have more updates. I think interior build out permits were issued a few weeks ago.

[kbud]

Originally Posted by jonesrmj

No, Delta moves to T5 once the expansion completes. I was saying that after Delta moves to T5, the satellite concourses will be constructed and T2 will be demolished.

Also, I'm surprised everyone thinks T5 won't open till late 2022. This broke ground back in 2019, and interior build out permits have apparently been issued. And doesn't the construction progress go pretty quick once the framework is progressing, or am I missing something?

Exactly, which is why T5 will be awful for 3 plus years. There won’t be much int’l expansion sadly. My timing is based solely on visual progress and the history of all public expansion projects at ORD. The east side of the terminal is far from being enclosed. Here is a picture from about a month ago. Maybe Delta would move in before the east side is complete?

[kbud]

Originally Posted by kbud

Exactly, which is why T5 will be awful for 3 plus years. There won’t be much int’l expansion sadly. My timing is based solely on visual progress and the history of all public expansion projects at ORD. The east side of the terminal is far from being enclosed. Here is a picture from about a month ago. Maybe Delta would move in before the east side is complete?

This was posted from Chicago29 from last month.

[F1 Tommy]

IATA article on the growth of US cargo hubs including Rockford. Have noticed a big increase in widebody cargo aircraft at the airport with alot more planned with the construction of the new cargo terminals.

https://www.iatanews.com/2021/04/05/...-hub-airports/

[N830MH]

Originally Posted by jonesrmj

No, Delta moves to T5 once the expansion completes. I was saying that after Delta moves to T5, the satellite concourses will be constructed and T2 will be demolished.

Also, I'm surprised everyone thinks T5 won't open till late 2022. This broke ground back in 2019, and interior build out permits have apparently been issued. And doesn't the construction progress go pretty quick once the framework is progressing, or am I missing something?

No, you did not missing anything. Delta will moves to T5. Once the construction is completed in late 2022 or early 2023 during at that time. I think Delta will take 5 or 6 gates at entire T5. WN, F9, and a few other airlines will stay at T5. I think Spirit will moves to T5. I am not quite sure if they relocated to T5.

Old T2 will demolishing later in a few years or so. They will reconstruction new Global Terminal, new customs & Immigration and new satellite concourse, as well. They won't be at T5 anymore. Both UA and AA will be at T2 for international arrivals. They won't be at entire T5 anymore. They won't be towed back to T1 or T3.