DENVER | Main Development Thread #7

[laniroj]

Originally Posted by SirLucasTheGreat

Here is the Fitzgerald:

It costs several hundred thousand dollars to do the nice setback windows like the bottom proportions of Fitzgerald have for a couple hundred unit multifamily deal. For the life of me, I will never understand why most developers do not voluntarily choose this specific aesthetic component to be proud of what they build. Outside of the most modern intents, this is an easy thing to do it just costs money. As a developer myself, I think it abhorrent that the majority of my peers succumb to value engineering for, IMO, the single most important design component the built environment can offer. It's not all value engineering and developers' faults as many, perhaps most, architects push for these modern brutal aesthetics, but boy do those windows look nice!

[SirLucasTheGreat]

Fascinating. I didn't know how costly embellishments like that actually were. It really adds to the street presence of this project. I think the Fitzgerald is one of my favorite projects under construction in LoDo. Between this, Market Station, the Thompson Hotel, and Whiskey Row, I'm really excited for the future of Market Street

[gopokes21]

Originally Posted by laniroj

It costs several hundred thousand dollars to do the nice setback windows like the bottom proportions of Fitzgerald have for a couple hundred unit multifamily deal. For the life of me, I will never understand why most developers do not voluntarily choose this specific aesthetic component to be proud of what they build. Outside of the most modern intents, this is an easy thing to do it just costs money. As a developer myself, I think it abhorrent that the majority of my peers succumb to value engineering for, IMO, the single most important design component the built environment can offer. It's not all value engineering and developers' faults as many, perhaps most, architects push for these modern brutal aesthetics, but boy do those windows look nice!

Bingo.

[coolmandan03]

Originally Posted by bunt_q

We did just vote more money for parks and not get any parks! But that’s a different story. Denver does that all the time -

When did that happen? Are you talking about the Elevate Denver bonds that have until 2028 to complete their 97 park projects? You can complain when none of the projects are done (although it's odd that you seem frustrated this happens with Denver parks, but don't understand why it would frustrate Boulder residences)

Originally Posted by bunt_q

Boulder got the Flatiron Flyer. Just because they wanted two things because they felt entitled and couldn’t choose... I don’t suppose you were around pre-Fastracks when that planning process was going on, so you probably have no idea what actually occurred.

I was around - I moved here in 2004. It doesn't change the fact that they voted on a plan, raised $243 million in tax receipts, and got nothing. You seem to agree that's not right... but you don't understand it anyways.

[wong21fr]

Originally Posted by coolmandan03

I was around - I moved here in 2004. It doesn't change the fact that they voted on a plan, raised $243 million in tax receipts, and got nothing. You seem to agree that's not right... but you don't understand it anyways.

Boulder got something, it’s called the Flatiron Flyer which you are familiar with. What Boulder has contributed covers about half the cost of the project excluding debt service. Longmont has been screwed, that’s true, and needs it’s choo-choo but I’m tired of Boulder whining about not getting anything when that’s absolutely false.

Boulder deserves dick for any additional transit service subsidized by the rest of the metro area.

[The Dirt]

Originally Posted by coolmandan03

It doesn't change the fact that they voted on a plan, raised $243 million in tax receipts, and got nothing.

Why do you characterize the most frequent, reliable, and comfortable regional bus service in the state as nothing? It's arguably better than the W or R line. Furthermore, the central line actually got service/frequency cuts and closed several stations instead of being expanded north along Downing. Considering this is serving the historical heart of the black community in Denver, that feels like a more egregious issue than duplicative service to a Denver exurb.

[ams5280]

Originally Posted by coolmandan03

I was around - I moved here in 2004. It doesn't change the fact that they voted on a plan, raised $243 million in tax receipts, and got nothing. You seem to agree that's not right... but you don't understand it anyways.

Again, Boulder has not even paid half the cost of the B Line /reduced service/ that would serve, what, 800 daily riders optimistically? We’d save money giving every daily rider daily door-to-door Uber service.

Level with me, you live in downtown Denver and want to go to Boulder. Name one place in Boulder worth visiting that you could easily get to with the train. Or less than 2 transfers.

The same goes for the Longmont to Boulder trip. The train will not take anyone where they want or need to be, and expensively at that.

As someone who commuted daily from Littleton to Boulder on the Flatiron Flyer, I can’t begin to describe how useful the bus is and how pointless the train would be.

[CherryCreek]

Rail from Cheyenne to Pueblo anyone?

https://www.trains.com/trn/news-reviews/...ects-us-map-that-suggests-new-corridors/

[twister244]

Fort Collins to Colorado Springs? Sure.

Cheyenne to Pueblo? Not so much.......

I would assume you want to build transit lines that connect popular points destination points where people go back and forth. You see that along the urban corridor, but not north of Fort Collins or South of the Springs.

[bunt_q]

Originally Posted by coolmandan03

When did that happen?

2018. Ballot Measure 2A. Nothing to do with Elevate.

Originally Posted by coolmandan03

I was around - I moved here in 2004. It doesn't change the fact that they voted on a plan, raised $243 million in tax receipts, and got nothing. You seem to agree that's not right... but you don't understand it anyways.

Well, $124M of that (not counting continuing operational funds, which have also eaten into your $243M) went to the Flatiron Flyer. No actually, not nothing.

"Nothing" is what Highlands Ranch got. Not. A. Penny. And has, what, four total bus routes serving the same population? I'll remind you, Highlands Ranch has the same population as Boulder now.

As I said, you could draw lots of circles around 100,000 people across the metro area who got far, far less for their taxes.

[bunt_q]

Originally Posted by twister244

Fort Collins to Colorado Springs? Sure.

Cheyenne to Pueblo? Not so much.......

I would assume you want to build transit lines that connect popular points destination points where people go back and forth. You see that along the urban corridor, but not north of Fort Collins or South of the Springs.

I give zero shits about Cheyenne. But be nice to Pueblo. Unless you've spent any time there, it's actually a lovely little city. It has gone through some rough times, like any Rust Belt city, but its historic bones are second only to Denver in Colorado. When I was a kid, the Front Range was Denver, Colorado Springs, Pueblo.

Just because Fort Collins is richer and whiter - and thanks in large part to Boulder not becoming an actual city, has grown massively in the last 30 years - does not make it more important than connecting to the historic southern anchor of the Front Range corridor. Which still, by the way, has more people than that community of train whiners, Longmont. I guarantee you train ridership between Pueblo and Colorado Springs (all else equal - depending on exactly where it goes) could match some other Front Range point-to-points (like, say, Longmont to Denver). It needs to be connected, 100%.

[laniroj]

Originally Posted by ams5280

...
Level with me, you live in downtown Denver and want to go to Boulder. Name one place in Boulder worth visiting that you could easily get to with the train. Or less than 2 transfers.

The same goes for the Longmont to Boulder trip. The train will not take anyone where they want or need to be, and expensively at that.

As someone who commuted daily from Littleton to Boulder on the Flatiron Flyer, I can’t begin to describe how useful the bus is and how pointless the train would be.

I'm going to try and end the train/transportation debate in one fail swoop AND tie it into development. Here goes...

IF Boulder can significantly increase housing capacity and drive dense development, a train should be considered, but only after all the zoning and planning mechanisms are in place. There is a pretty incredible amount of vehicle traffic between Denver-Boulder and if we can put a dent in that (IF) a train is worth it. Plus Boulder gets a bunch of tourism (but those vehicle trips largely involve full cars not single occupancy anyway).

Ultimately, it would be great to interconnect the entire front range and I70 corridor via train and it's something we should strive for. Buses are a good short term fix but in the long run, we really should be developing trains with stations that accommodate major residential density adjacent to work centers and commercial nodes. That is sustainable development, much the same as downtown and central Denver are densifying along transit corridors. What is not sustainable is expecting suburbanites to commute into a city center every day. Put jobs where housing is, eliminate single occupancy commuting via built environment and not lacking transportation hopes/wishes/dreams. To me, trains are much less about their transportation function, rather they serve as dense development investments that provide innumerable benefits over the long term. Without them, sprawl will continue.

[SirLucasTheGreat]

Exactly what laniroj said regarding trains.

From a transportation standpoint in the city, I am much more interested in some of the improvements DOTI has been making in our bike lanes and through the shared streets initiative. For example, DOTI has been installing roundabouts on 11th avenue near Cheeseman. In addition, DOTI has created these cool traffic slowing features on Bayaud where the road narrows at the intersection with one lane marked as a regular vehicle lane and the other lane is a more narrow bike lane. Makes it much more comfortable for microbility. Denver won't turn into Copenhagen but I would to see us further promote micromobility, as that will likely provide alternative transportation options on a much more expedited basis with significantly less capital investment than a rail system. Hell, even the Colfax BRT is going to be a decade long project for whatever needless reason.

[laniroj]

Originally Posted by bunt_q

...But be nice to Pueblo. Unless you've spent any time there, it's actually a lovely little city. It has gone through some rough times, like any Rust Belt city, but its historic bones are second only to Denver in Colorado. When I was a kid, the Front Range was Denver, Colorado Springs, Pueblo...

It was really just Denver and Southern Colorado. C Springs and Piiiieblo never really got recognized as their own places! Funny to look back on the good ol' days - you have me craving a Pass Key sausage sammy now...

[twister244]

Originally Posted by bunt_q

I give zero shits about Cheyenne. But be nice to Pueblo. Unless you've spent any time there, it's actually a lovely little city. It has gone through some rough times, like any Rust Belt city, but its historic bones are second only to Denver in Colorado. When I was a kid, the Front Range was Denver, Colorado Springs, Pueblo.

Just because Fort Collins is richer and whiter - and thanks in large part to Boulder not becoming an actual city, has grown massively in the last 30 years - does not make it more important than connecting to the historic southern anchor of the Front Range corridor. Which still, by the way, has more people than that community of train whiners, Longmont. I guarantee you train ridership between Pueblo and Colorado Springs (all else equal - depending on exactly where it goes) could match some other Front Range point-to-points (like, say, Longmont to Denver). It needs to be connected, 100%.

Pueblo can be as cute as it wants to be, but it's still only a city of ~110k people, and is surrounded by..... no other population centers. It's 50 miles south of the Springs.... It doesn't deserve a train any more than Boulder does. Sorry.

If Pueblo were to swell to 250k people, and the land between there and the Springs were to suddenly start filling in with major development, then we can revisit a question of whether to even consider having a train go down to Pueblo.

You guys need to remember transit connects destinations that carry enough people from both ends to justify its existence. Having a line from the Springs to FoCo makes sense because there's a lof of people along that corridor. FoCo may technically not be larger by a ton compared to Boulder, Pueblo, but it's surrounded by other major growing communities. Same goes from COS to Denver.

[SirLucasTheGreat]

Anybody know when Mcgregor Square or Market Station are going to open? Rockies are starting and was curious if Mcgregor Square would open in tandem.

[bunt_q]

Originally Posted by twister244

Pueblo can be as cute as it wants to be, but it's still only a city of ~110k people, and is surrounded by..... no other population centers. It's 50 miles south of the Springs.... It doesn't deserve a train any more than Boulder does. Sorry.

If Pueblo were to swell to 250k people, and the land between there and the Springs were to suddenly start filling in with major development, then we can revisit a question of whether to even consider having a train go down to Pueblo.

You guys need to remember transit connects destinations that carry enough people from both ends to justify its existence. Having a line from the Springs to FoCo makes sense because there's a lof of people along that corridor. FoCo may technically not be larger by a ton compared to Boulder, Pueblo, but it's surrounded by other major growing communities. Same goes from COS to Denver.

Well if we are cutting Boulder and Longmont, then fine, happy to cut Pueblo too.

Although it is 38 miles from the house I grew up in in C.S. to Downtown Pueblo. So we are really only talking 35 miles, with existing trackage that can probably be used pretty easily. Relatively speaking, it's an easy add. Much easier than Northern Colorado, actually.

And you should also remember that the last mile problem is a big damn problem, especially in intercity trains. Unless you're planning on massive park-n-rides, it's actually going to be nearly impossible to serve much of that Weld/Larimer County growth with a station in downtown Fort Collins. That's where the older cities - even those with only 110k - have as much ridership potential as all of the Loveland-Greeley MSA combined. Highlands Ranch, my favorite example, is also a hair over 100k, and you wouldn't expect that to generate any ridership at all.

[TakeFive]

Apples to Oranges - or Not?

Originally Posted by twister244

Pueblo can be as cute as it wants to be, but it's still only a city of ~110k people, and is surrounded by..... no other population centers. It's 50 miles south of the Springs.... It doesn't deserve a train any more than Boulder does. Sorry.

My assumption is this would be "regional" Front Range train service funded and run by a different authority and NOT RTD; maybe one (or two) stops per city. If, as bunt points out they can using existing track that's a Big plus.

Originally Posted by coolmandan03

I was around - I moved here in 2004. It doesn't change the fact that they voted on a plan, raised $243 million in tax receipts, and got nothing.

It wasn't RTD's fault that the costs, thanks largely to BNSF more than doubled for the B Line to Boulder.

Chances are high that you might be enlightened by getting up close and personal with RTD's financing from long term (debt) costs to annual revenues and costs. Btw, pre-pandemic RTD gave significant raises to drivers in order to hire, train and retain them. Just one more recurring cost that is providing more financial stress for RTD.

Originally Posted by bunt_q

2018. Ballot Measure 2A. Nothing to do with Elevate.

Passed by a vote of ~ 60% to 40%.

Presumably any funds diverted last year can be easily returned via this year's American Rescue Plan Act

Originally Posted by bunt_q

I give zero shits about Cheyenne. But be nice to Pueblo. Unless you've spent any time there, it's actually a lovely little city. It has gone through some rough times, like any Rust Belt city, but its historic bones are second only to Denver in Colorado. When I was a kid, the Front Range was Denver, Colorado Springs, Pueblo.

I guarantee you train ridership between Pueblo and Colorado Springs (all else equal - depending on exactly where it goes) could match some other Front Range point-to-points (like, say, Longmont to Denver). It needs to be connected, 100%.

I wondered/guessed that traffic between the two cities might be good.

It's kind of like Bustang running "all the way to Grand Junctions" when most of the traffic is between Denver and Frisco and/or Vail-Beaver Creek. It's because it's a regional service for the citizens of the Western Slope (as well as Denver) and just like between Pueblo and Co Springs I assume there's decent ridership between Grand Junction and Glenwood Springs.

Originally Posted by laniroj

It was really just Denver and Southern Colorado. C Springs and Piiiieblo never really got recognized as their own places! Funny to look back on the good ol' days - you have me craving a Pass Key sausage sammy now...

Never had the pleasure but I see they're still alive and well.

[BG918]

Originally Posted by SirLucasTheGreat

Anybody know when Mcgregor Square or Market Station are going to open? Rockies are starting and was curious if Mcgregor Square would open in tandem.

The hotel and plaza are open and were chock full of people today for Opening Day. Some of the retail and restaurants haven’t opened yet.

[SirLucasTheGreat]

Nice! I'm excited to check out the plaza