Olympic Village & Southeast False Creek Updates Discussion

[jollyburger]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

I guess it depends what is meant by 17%. 17% of what?

They are justifying their continual price increases by the need to increase system capacity on a regular basis, every ~5 years or so. All of these items don't really add up, unless I'm missing something.

17% of the 2 x 1.6MW heat pumps I guess?

Currently, the False Creek Energy Centre (FCEC) generates energy for the NEU through a combination of sewage waste heat recovery heat pumps (2 x 1.6 MW thermal output capacity) and natural gas boilers (1 x 8 MW and 4 x 4 MW thermal output capacity).

https://council.vancouver.ca/20200708/documents/cfsc1.pdf

[Changing City]

Originally Posted by jollyburger

They announced they were expanding the heat recovery at the end of 2020:

https://canada.constructconnect.com/joc/...ent-invest-in-false-creek-energy-upgrade

Seems like St Pauls is planning on being connected to the district energy grid:

https://rezoning.vancouver.ca/applications/1002station/documents/13-sustainability.pdf

I'm not so sure about that. The buildings are designed to be connected to a District Energy System - but it would have to be in place by the time the Hospital completes in 2026. It's possible that there could be an expansion of the existing SEFC NEU, but they've only just extended it to add the new office buildings along Quebec Street. I think the network they were anticipating tpo connect the hospital to was the Creative Energy plan to build a new waste-to-heat plant in False Creek Flats - but that's apparently not happening any more. Creative are planning to have electric powered steam generation in a new plant next to the existing building when that all gets redeveloped for the Bjarke Ingels designed office project. That's not close to The Flats, so wouldn't be connected to St Paul's.

Should we be discussing this in the SEFC thread?

[jollyburger]

I think the city approved their expansion to the hospital and NE False Creek in 2018:

https://council.vancouver.ca/20180221/documents/pspc3.pdf

[s211]

Originally Posted by jlousa

My understand it the system is only recovering 17% of the heat that the engineers said it should be recovering, leading to them needing to burn more natural gas then expected.

Wait, what? The CoV burns fossil fuels? Where are the protesters, or does the CoV somehow get a free pass?


— hypocrites.

[Changing City]

Originally Posted by jollyburger

I think the city approved their expansion to the hospital and NE False Creek in 2018:

https://council.vancouver.ca/20180221/documents/pspc3.pdf

You're right. We'll see if the needed pipes get installed heading north (not south - my mistake). It looks like they have 5 years, so it's certainly possible.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by Changing City

You're right. We'll see if the needed pipes get installed heading south. It looks like they have 5 years, so it's certainly possible.

Do you mean North?

South down Quebec St. happened last year, in line with all of the Hootsuite and area construction. I'm sure the plans are still in place to accommodate St. Paul's and future development on the way (McDonald's lot, Quebec and Terminal, etc.)

Always "fun" to see how every future prediction involves just 1-2 more years before it's breakeven. Pretty annoying as a customer who faces routine price increases no matter what.

[Changing City]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

Do you mean North?

South down Quebec St. happened last year, in line with all of the Hootsuite and area construction. I'm sure the plans are still in place to accommodate St. Paul's and future development on the way (McDonald's lot, Quebec and Terminal, etc.)

Always "fun" to see how every future prediction involves just 1-2 more years before it's breakeven. Pretty annoying as a customer who faces routine price increases no matter what.

I did mean north. The document Jollyburger found indicates a north expansion by 2022, and then an eastern spur to the hospital site in 2023 - 2026. (Mind you, that document also anticipated the McDonalds site and the adjacent City-owned lot becoming new customers by 2022, and there's been no sign of that coming true yet).

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by Changing City

I did mean north. The document Jollyburger found indicates a north expansion by 2022, and then an eastern spur to the hospital site in 2023 - 2026. (Mind you, that document also anticipated the McDonalds site and the adjacent City-owned lot becoming new customers by 2022, and there's been no sign of that coming true yet).

Yeah it doesn't take them long to dig up the street and drop in the connection, there's no reason to start until at least some redevelopment plans are in the submission stage. Now, they'll have to do something if they still plan to connect the hospital and nothing else has been started.

[Vin]

In the meantime, residents keep paying through the roof for their District Energy bills. Makes a lot of sense in this City.

[VancouverOfTheFuture]

are bills expensive on the system? i don't live there. would you say its more expensive than living off the system?

one of the things governments get to do is create monopolies like these which means you are stuck no matter what.

[officedweller]

There have been stories on how the admin/service fee on the monthly bills adds significantly to the cost of the energy used.

[jlousa]

It's about equal to if you were using electricity to heat baseboards, but quite a bit higher then if you were using natural gas...

[officedweller]

I suppose the complaints would be more during the summer (assuming you don't use A/C).
If a monthly summer hydro bill for a condo is $25, even a $5 service charge is 20%.

[SFUVancouver]

Originally Posted by s211

Wait, what? The CoV burns fossil fuels? Where are the protesters, or does the CoV somehow get a free pass?


— hypocrites.

*Big sigh*

The district energy system (DES) was designed to use sanitary sewer heat recovery as the heat source for the system. I don't know the exact target percent of a year that sewer heat alone could provide the DES with its heat input, but they obviously endeavoured to find a reasonable trade-off of system capacity vs cost to maximize the days of the year when it could provide 100% of demand without it costing as much to operate as CERN.

The DES was designed and built with three natural gas boilers that would have the combined capacity to supply all of the systems' heat needs during times when the sewer heat recovery system was down for maintenance, upgrades, or trouble-shooting if something went wrong (like appears to be the case right now based on preceding comments).

During normal operation, only one natural gas boiler is lit and for most of the day it is on whatever its equivalent of idle is. It kicks up a few notches to meet the predicable morning demand spike as everyone takes a shower, along with when there's a cold snap; that's the system working as designed.

The DES capacity (pipes and plant) were designed and sized to meet the initially planned service area, which included all of SEFC from the Cambie street bridge (excluding the Maynards Block building, interestingly) to Main, and the north side of 2nd Ave to the water and the south side of Terminal Ave at Main/Quebec. The efficiency of the system exceeded initial expectations and the future service area was expanded to include areas of the False Creek Flats. Furthermore, larger areas (Mount Pleasant industrial/commercial, new Saint Paul's Hospital, redevelopment of False Creek South, etc.) could be added in the future were a second (or more) DES plant(s) to be added in the future.

So, this is all by way of saying that if something has gone wrong with the DES and it has lately been getting way less heat from the sewers, then they'll figure out the issue and solve it. In the meantime, because of the design of the system, there won't be an interruption in heat supply because of the forethought to include NG boilers. Were there no DES, all the buildings would have NG boilers anyway for domestic hot water, and they would collectively burn a whole lot more gas and create a lot more pollution than three industrial-grade super high efficiency boilers supplying hot water in pipes with a foot of thermal insulation. District heating isn't some sort of hand wavy crunchy granola feel goodery. It works. It's not new. And like any complex mechanical system, sometimes there are issues that arise and need resolution.

[Changing City]

Originally Posted by SFUVancouver

*Big sigh*

The district energy system (DES) was designed to use sanitary sewer heat recovery as the heat source for the system. I don't know the exact target percent of year that sewer heat alone could provide the DES with its heat input, but they obviously endeavoured to find a reasonable trade-off of system capacity vs cost to maximize the days of the year when it could provide 100% of demand without it costing as much to operate as CERN.

The DES was designed and built with three natural gas boilers that would have the combined capacity to supply all of the systems' heat needs during times when the sewer heat recovery system was down for maintenance, upgrades, or trouble-shooting if something went wrong (like appears to be the case right now based on preceding comments).

It was good of you to provide such a comprehensive response. Don't forget that the initial system design was to use wood waste for the boilers, like the UBC local energy system, but the residents to the west of Cambie Bridge created a huge fuss, and there wasn't time to debate the additional benefit of a greener energy source because the system had to be commissioned and working for the Olympic Village to open. If a booster heat source is needed elsewhere on the system, it could still use a greener source than natural gas.

There is additional heat introduced into the system from the solar heating tubes on the roofs of several of the Olympic Village buildings. The recent expansion of the system was announced at the the same time that Richmond's district energy system neat the Olympic Oval announced that it would switch from gas to sewer heat recovery as well.

I was wondering if the system had faced signicant operating changes from the pandemic. Far more people at home for longer, and many working from home, will mean more cold water in the mix, and a higher volume of bio solids than previously.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by jlousa

It's about equal to if you were using electricity to heat baseboards, but quite a bit higher then if you were using natural gas...

Yeah I'd say this is accurate. It's pretty expensive compared to natural gas at current prices anyway. Natural gas was spiking when this system was conceived of in early 2000s, and that could happen again.

Our strata is billed directly so there's no overhead charges. One issue is the massive fixed costs as part of the billing. We pay a lot for using it very little in the winter (just hot water).

The city says it's a good deal because they factor in the cost of maintenance and replacement of natural gas boilers in an alternative system. The NEU system certainly isn't "maintenance free", and heat exchangers aren't as popular and so maintenance and other HVAC companies that work on them aren't as plentiful or experienced.

Time will tell I suppose. As I said, the constant annual cost increases are more of a direct annoyance, as compared to very stable electricity prices for example.

[WarrenC12]

Thanks for the good explainer.

Also worth noting the City has contracted with Fortis to buy renewable natural gas as much as possible, but there have been supply issues from Fortis with that.

The idea on paper is really good. The execution seems "ok", and the cost is high. The City should be aiming for breakeven on this, instead they are looking to make a profit.

[officedweller]

The finger / hand sculpture next to Cambie Bridge indicates the amount of natural gas being burned by the colour of the lights.
I think the warmer (red/orange/purple) they are, the more natural gas is being burned.

Found it:

Five finger-like stacks culminate in glowing fingernail forms that respond to the energy consumption of the neighbourhood.
When the plant is providing lots of heat, the fingernails glow fiery red and orange. When less heat is required, they become a cooler blue.

https://pechetstudio.com/portfolio/fcec-stacks-2/

[jollyburger]

3MW sewage heat recovery (soon to
be expanded to 8-10 MW)
24 MW gas boilers using renewable
natural gas for peaking.
Peak demand: 20 MW

https://sustain.ubc.ca/sites/default/files/2020-44_NEU%20Feasibility%20Study%20Strategy_Chapman.pdf

[officedweller]

Avenue One

From Lawrence Black twitter posted today:


https://twitter.com/LawrenceBlackTV


W2


https://twitter.com/LawrenceBlackTV