Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[Zeej]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

Before we get out the pitchforks, let's try to read this with some context.



The bullet point "A lot of people here speak French" probably means "If you speak your mother tongue + English as a second language, be aware that there are areas of the country where your existing language skills do not apply".

If you're a Vancouver-based immigration consultancy, you're probably helping the groups of immigrants who tend to settle in the lower mainland: Chinese, Taiwanese, HK, Koreans, Filipinos, South Asians, etc. In most of these countries, English as a second language instruction ranges from poor but mandatory (similar to French instruction in the ROC) to excellent and instilling fluency (similar to English instruction in the Netherlands). French as a second language is not part of any official curriculum and is pursued as a personal pasttime, similar to people wanting to study Italian here.

Also, a lot of people from Asia are unaware that Canada has a French-speaking region.

This infographic is just alerting them to the fact that, if they should emigrate, they will have more professional luck in Vancouver, Toronto or, frankly, North Battleford, than they will in Chicoutimi or Sorel, if only due to language knowledge.

I agree with your assessment. Pretty well spot on. That being said, the presentation of the French language in Canada on a list of CONS is, at best, a presentation blunder. Nothing was stopping this consultancy from preparing a third column of "fun facts!" or what have you. It's difficult to comprehend that a Canadian-based consultancy that is discussing life in Canada wouldn't grasp these implications - this type of stuff cycles around every so often and legitimately bothers (sometimes alienates) people, so I'm not prepared to issue a pass. There are plenty of other ways of informing prospective newcomers that they may have more success in English Canada without expressly listing the people speaking French as a negative aspect of life in Canada.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Zeej

I agree with your assessment. Pretty well spot on. That being said, the presentation of the French language in Canada on a list of CONS is, at best, a presentation blunder. Nothing was stopping this consultancy from preparing a third column of "fun facts!" or what have you. It's difficult to comprehend that a Canadian-based consultancy that is discussing life in Canada wouldn't grasp these implications - this type of stuff cycles around every so often and legitimately bothers (sometimes alienates) people, so I'm not prepared to issue a pass.

At the very least, it's very "tone-deaf".

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Zeej

I agree with your assessment. Pretty well spot on. That being said, the presentation of the French language in Canada on a list of CONS is, at best, a presentation blunder.

Highlighting the reality of the "French fact" in the list of CONS is a definite faux pas. I agree absolutely. This should be corrected.

[Andy6]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Well, yeah. Cue the classic PQ yarn "This is what we've been telling you about those guys all along!" for the 45,644th time.

Nationalist Twitter is doing a major victory dance over this one!

[Andy6]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Highlighting the reality of the "French fact" in the list of CONS is a definite faux pas. I agree absolutely. This should be corrected.

It’s pretty stupid and hard to understand.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Andy6

Nationalist Twitter is doing a major victory dance over this one!

True to form!

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

Before we get out the pitchforks, let's try to read this with some context.



The bullet point "A lot of people here speak French" probably means "If you speak your mother tongue + English as a second language, be aware that there are areas of the country where your existing language skills do not apply".

If you're a Vancouver-based immigration consultancy, you're probably helping the groups of immigrants who tend to settle in the lower mainland: Chinese, Taiwanese, HK, Koreans, Filipinos, South Asians, etc. In most of these countries, English as a second language instruction ranges from poor but mandatory (similar to French instruction in the ROC) to excellent and instilling fluency (similar to English instruction in the Netherlands). French as a second language is not part of any official curriculum and is pursued as a personal pasttime, similar to people wanting to study Italian here.

Also, a lot of people from Asia are unaware that Canada has a French-speaking region.

This infographic is just alerting them to the fact that, if they should emigrate, they will have more professional luck in Vancouver, Toronto or, frankly, North Battleford, than they will in Chicoutimi or Sorel, if only due to language knowledge.

I can definitely understand these points.

Though keep in mind we're in Hyper Sensitive 2021.

If people X Y and Z are going to react viscerally to every slight, whether blatant, subtle or perceived, then it must be expected that francophones will do the same.

Even if some people would claim they have no right to do so, or at least would very much rather they not.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

This infographic is just alerting them to the fact that, if they should emigrate, they will have more professional luck in Vancouver, Toronto or, frankly, North Battleford, than they will in Chicoutimi or Sorel, if only due to language knowledge.

Assuming limited knowledge of Canada's linguistic landscape when reading that list, it's not clear how you'd go from "Canada: Con: A lot of people here speak French" to understanding that there is a mix of English and French speaking areas. I think you'd just assume that a lot of people in Canada speak French, and that this extends to say Vancouver, which is not accurate. It doesn't seem like this list is good from a communication standpoint.

The company has apologized which is fine. But I do see a double standard with French language issues within the overall context of exquisite sensitivity toward minorities in the English-language media and corporate environment these days. If a company wrote "Canada: Con: a lot of people here speak Chinese", that would be considered offensive. I wish the overall temperature would be lowered and I would not call for anybody to be fired or publicly shamed for writing these things, but I also don't think the norms should be selectively enforced by group. Sometimes it seems like with French issues in Canada it's always "complicated", while other slights often provoke extreme reactions.

[hipster duck]

Originally Posted by someone123

The company has apologized which is fine. But I do see a double standard with French language issues within the overall context of exquisite sensitivity toward minorities in the English-language media and corporate environment these days. If a company wrote "Canada: Con: a lot of people here speak Chinese", that would be considered offensive.

I'm willing to give the company the benefit of the doubt. My guess is that that line was originally written by someone who was an immigrant, themselves. In that case, they may not even be aware of that double standard you're talking about. They might actually write "Con: a lot of people here speak Chinese" if they weren't Chinese!

Frankly, I think it's kind of embarrassing that the Quebec media is fixated on some amateur infographic that a mom and pop immigration firm published to their website in Vancouver. Given Melanie Joly's feigned outrage, you'd think this was on some elected politician's Twitter feed, or something a CEO from a major corporation said out loud.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

I'm willing to give the company the benefit of the doubt. My guess is that that line was originally written by someone who was an immigrant, themselves. In that case, they may not even be aware of that double standard you're talking about. They might actually write "Con: a lot of people here speak Chinese" if they weren't Chinese!

Frankly, I think it's kind of embarrassing that the Quebec media is fixated on some amateur infographic that a mom and pop immigration firm published to their website in Vancouver. Given Melanie Joly's feigned outrage, you'd think this was on some elected politician's Twitter feed, or something a CEO from a major corporation said out loud.

Need I repeat again: THIS IS 2021.

[Acajack]

Expect more, not less of this going forward.

[hipster duck]

^From Quebecois? In English Canada, I don't see French being turned into a wedge issue where we form a tribe against you guys.

This might be JJ McCullough's 🞵🞵🞵 🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵, and I'm sure there are bitter Federal civil servants in places like Barrhaven and Carleton Place that think that French is their glass ceiling, but I don't think it gets much traction elsewhere in the country.

English Canada has other pathetic sensitivities that it has to reconcile with, as you are well aware.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

^From Quebecois? In English Canada, I don't see French being turned into a wedge issue where we form a tribe against you guys.

This might be JJ McCullough's 🞵🞵🞵 🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵, and I'm sure there are bitter Federal civil servants in places like Barrhaven and Carleton Place that think that French is their glass ceiling, but I don't think it gets much traction elsewhere in the country.

English Canada has other pathetic sensitivities that it has to reconcile with, as you are well aware.

Oh no. I don't see English Canada amping things up against Quebec or francophones at all*. But as you no doubt know, English Canada is sufficiently tone-deaf to the concerns and sensitivities here to produce these types of hiccups *naturally* from time to time. Changing demographics in the country will only accentuate the tone-deafness. And of course given the social climate of 2020-2021, reactions from francophones are likely to be even more over-the-top than they've historically been.

*The one exception being Anglo-Quebecers, who have been pumping up the volume lately, in keeping with the spirit of the times, I suppose.

I mean, I am pretty sure the Montreal Gazette, CTV Montreal and City TV Montreal all produced and ran news stories recently about someone who went to a drive-through (McDonald's? Tim Hortons?) in Longueuil and couldn't get served in English...

[someone123]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

I'm willing to give the company the benefit of the doubt. My guess is that that line was originally written by someone who was an immigrant, themselves. In that case, they may not even be aware of that double standard you're talking about. They might actually write "Con: a lot of people here speak Chinese" if they weren't Chinese!

Sure. It's possible.

Frankly, I think it's kind of embarrassing that the Quebec media is fixated on some amateur infographic that a mom and pop immigration firm published to their website in Vancouver. Given Melanie Joly's feigned outrage, you'd think this was on some elected politician's Twitter feed, or something a CEO from a major corporation said out loud.

There is an incentive for every plausible identity group to be as loud as possible in response to anything that can be construed as a slight or discrimination. Personally, I think it's likely we ain't seen nothing yet, as some of the larger groups haven't asserted their identity much yet in the new politics and are regularly poked in the eye. Mélanie Joly cannot escape the collective action problem posed by the current system. Nobody cares if she is measured and magnanimous in her responses to these things.

French Canadians are often either sidelined or punished unfairly in English language media. And in a lot of ways they are a somewhat vulnerable minority and I think it really is corrosive to their interests to have French in Canada presented as a negative. So while this perhaps got blown out of proportion I don't think the correct response is to ignore it.

[someone123]

Which of these got filtered out in Canadian politics? Are they going to resurface, or will it be stable to heavily emphasize only a subset of these axes?

(Note: this is orthogonal to the question of whether this type of perspective is good or bad. Whether we like it or not, it is currently influential.)


Source

[Chadillaccc]

That thing is missing neurotypical and neurodivergent people... a huge part of domination, and a contributing factor to almost all of thee others.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Chadillaccc

That thing is missing neurotypical and neurodivergent people... a huge part of domination, and a contributing factor to almost all of thee others.

Yes it is. It could sort of fit under the "disabilities" umbrella.

Francophones in Canada are in the ESL group, and Francophones are at a disadvantage compared to Anglophones in North America. If you grow up in a small town in Quebec speaking only French, it is harder for you to move around to take advantage of opportunities than somebody who grows up speaking only English in a small town in Ontario.

Where this model loses me is the idea that people are always oppressor or oppressed. We all have a mix of advantages and disadvantages, and only some are visible.

In politics these days people often deliberately focus on some of these axes while ignoring others, sometimes to absurd levels. But if we "play" the identity politics game, people will push to consider more.

[rousseau]

Originally Posted by someone123

Where this model loses me is the idea that people are always oppressor or oppressed. We all have a mix of advantages and disadvantages, and only some are visible.

In politics these days people often deliberately focus on some of these axes while ignoring others, sometimes to absurd levels. But if we "play" the identity politics game, people will push to consider more.

Yep. I followed the link to the "whiteness theory" Wikipedia page it appears on, and from there I found a page devoted to "whiteness studies."

Being white myself, could I just sail through and get a degree in "whiteness studies" really easily, given my undoubtedly better acquaintance with what it means to be white and my white privilege? That's how this works, right?

(Hey, what happened to the woke thread? It was a sorely needed outlet for comic relief on SSP. I miss the hissy fits and ruffled feathers of the usual suspects who earnestly declared, over and over again, that the only solution was to ignore the thread. Bring it back!)

[urbandreamer]

Some French Canadians are starting to sound like Ulster Protestants: square backwoodsmen. (And I'm descended from those Orangemen.)

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by urbandreamer

Some French Canadians are starting to sound like Ulster Protestants: square backwoodsmen. (And I'm descended from those Orangemen.)

No, we're definitely more the IRA-Sinn Fein types, trust me.