Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I agree. What we need is a Canadian high court that deals with common law and a Canadian high court that deals with civil law. Anyone qualified for the latter would automatically speak French. Problem solved.

And criminal cases?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

And criminal cases?

I was only half-serious.

As always, the devil is in the details.

Though it always does amaze that people always insist on having shared institutions (almost) all the time but OTOH have so much trouble walking the walk when it comes to bilingualism.

(I will admit that the SCC might not be the best case study for distinct francophone-anglophone or Quebec-ROC institutions, but the whole debate over bilingual judges still does evoke the point quite well.)

[MonctonRad]

The SCOC of course should be a bilingual institution, but the issue of course is in perceived fairness between anglophones and francophones in terms of judicial appointments.

90% of francophone eligible appointees would be sufficiently bilingual, but only 10% of anglophone eligible appointees would be. Is this fair?

Another issue that is rarely brought up is unintended bias. If all the SCOC justices were completely and effortlessly bilingual, would this make them unintentionally less sympathetic in cases dealing with the provision of, or access to bilingual services to those defendants accused of not providing bilingual services? There subconscious bias might be "well, I'm bilingual, why aren't you???" Would this affect their decisions???

[CityTech]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I was only half-serious.

As always, the devil is in the details.

Though it always does amaze that people always insist on having shared institutions (almost) all the time but OTOH have so much trouble walking the walk when it comes to bilingualism.

(I will admit that the SCC might not be the best case study for distinct francophone-anglophone or Quebec-ROC institutions, but the whole debate over bilingual judges still does evoke the point quite well.)

That's why I don't think we should have shared institutions. Have the federal ministries have separate departments for anglophones and francophones. The former can be HQed in Ottawa, the latter in Gatineau.

[wave46]

Originally Posted by CityTech

That's why I don't think we should have shared institutions. Have the federal ministries have separate departments for anglophones and francophones. The former can be HQed in Ottawa, the latter in Gatineau.

We generally don't have shared institutions.

It's the reason why we have provinces and provincial responsibilities. The actual overlap of the federal government and daily life for most is pretty minimal in the country, with the exception of the national capital.

For all the furor, the feds are pretty distant from the lives of average Canadians.

[P'tit Renard]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

90% of francophone eligible appointees would be sufficiently bilingual, but only 10% of anglophone eligible appointees would be. Is this fair?

The SCC isn't some entry level job like the passport office in say Halifax, it's a top leadership role in the highest court of the land. Any legal professional aspiring to be in this role would undoubtedly be one of the smartest minds in Canada, and in that regard, learning French to a functional level shouldn't be a challenge at all.

The issue of 'fairness' seems more that certain Anglophones are too lazy to learn the other official language, even when the role calls for it. In many parts of the world, the majority of professionals are often 'functionally' bilingual or trilingual, I've always found it weird that certain Anglophone countries readily accept uniliginualism as an acceptable condition.

An Anglophone would need to be living under a rock since the 1970s to not realize the importance of French in the SCC, especially since language is such an integral part of law.

[P'tit Renard]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Another thing is that while it's not at all representative of the population as a whole (or even all of the group that follows), the governing or élite classes in Canada (even outside the bilingual belt) do tend to have more bilinguals among them than one would expect.

This class of people is mostly made up of politicians of course, but top-level legal professionals also and even, surprisingly enough, Olympic athletes.

Yes, it's why French immersion classes are so coveted by the professional classes in Ontario - they want to give their children a permanent competitive advantage.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

The SCOC of course should be a bilingual institution, but the issue of course is in perceived fairness between anglophones and francophones in terms of judicial appointments.

90% of francophone eligible appointees would be sufficiently bilingual, but only 10% of anglophone eligible appointees would be. Is this fair?

Another issue that is rarely brought up is unintended bias. If all the SCOC justices were completely and effortlessly bilingual, would this make them unintentionally less sympathetic in cases dealing with the provision of, or access to bilingual services to those defendants accused of not providing bilingual services? There subconscious bias might be "well, I'm bilingual, why aren't you???" Would this affect their decisions???

The SCC IS an officially bilingual institution.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

The SCC IS a bilingual institution.

I never said that it wasn't. I was just acknowledging the fact that it should be.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by CityTech

That's why I don't think we should have shared institutions. Have the federal ministries have separate departments for anglophones and francophones. The former can be HQed in Ottawa, the latter in Gatineau.

That's what the Laurendeau-Dunton Commission on Bilingualism and Biculturalism recommended in the 1960s, but PET would have none of it as he thought that would be just sleepwalking towards separatism.

As a result early days official bilingualism in Canada if you read the old fine print was really meant as bulwark to protect Anglo-Quebecers against possible attacks from the PQ if ever they got in power. The feds' spending and efforts reflected that for a decade or more.

It wasn't so much about French in the early days.

Though it did become very much about French in the 1980s, and it's true that all of those policies and the organizations that implement them have been mostly about French ever since that time.

[Loco101]

Originally Posted by Acajack

That's what the Laurendeau-Dunton Commission on Bilingualism and Biculturalism recommended in the 1960s, but PET would have none of it as he thought that would be just sleepwalking towards separatism.

As a result early days official bilingualism in Canada if you read the old fine print was really meant as bulwark to protect Anglo-Quebecers against possible attacks from the PQ if ever they got in power. The feds' spending and efforts reflected that for a decade or more.

It wasn't so much about French in the early days.

Though it did become very much about French in the 1980s, and it's true that all of those policies and the organizations that implement them have been mostly about French ever since that time.

I've always wondered how the federal government operated in Quebec and elsewhere in Canada before the Official Languages Act came into place.

I was taught that official bilingualism was to protect and respect the French language across Canada but especially for Quebec and areas with large numbers of francophones elsewhere in Canada including where I live.

Now about the federal public service: I find it very unfair that there are quite a few unilingual anglophones working in it in Quebec, especially in the Gatineau and Montreal areas yet outside Quebec you won't find any unilingual francophones working in it.

Since we're talking about languages, I had an in-person conversation in French today which I haven't had in a long time due to the pandemic. It was with two young boys and their parents. The boys were taking cross-country skiing lessons at the same time as my daughter. The family spoke French very well I thought that they might be originally from Quebec but I realized they probably weren't when I heard them speaking English to others later. One of the boys was black and adopted which is fairly common among francophone families here. The two brothers were having a great time and were so happy that it was a warm and sunny day. It was nice to see a local family that could separate their French and English and not blend the languages so much.

[Dengler Avenue]

What the, I just found out that Dany Turcotte's leaving Tout le Monde En Parle.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

What the, I just found out that Dany Turcotte's leaving Tout le Monde En Parle.

Yes, it made a big splash when he announced it this week. He had been the host's sidekick (fou du roi - court jester) for 17 years. Since the show's début.

Some people say he was "cancelled" for a stupid joke he made to M. Camara who was wrongfully arrested and detained after the shooting of a Montreal cop.
(He said: "So I guess you won't be talking on your phone while driving anymore?" Camara had initially been stopped for driving while talking on the phone.)

Some people found it ironic he was (allegedly) cancelled for this as he is a pretty big woke dude. At least by Quebec standards. As is the show's host. They weren't really before - but they've evolved towards it.

Not sure myself that he was cancelled. He announced he was leaving, and by all accounts he had lost a step and his interventions had become more and more useless and out of touch.

[Loco101]

The pandemic has certainly changed TLMEP more than any other show that I can think of in Canada due to there not being a very visible audience that really gives the show momentum. I don't watch the show on a regular basis but I love how it adopted a very European format, had glasses of wine and brought a different look into so many guests of all types than what you'd see on English-language TV.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Loco101

The pandemic has certainly changed TLMEP more than any other show that I can think of in Canada due to there not being a very visible audience that really gives the show momentum. .

Well, there are hardly any talk shows produced in English in Canada, so there's that!

But yes the show's format also changed from a live-to-tape format where they'd record for 4-5 hours in front of a live audience and then edit it down into a roughly 2-hour program.

Now they're fully live with no guests. They've also become more oriented on current affairs and social issues since the pandemic. Previously there was more of a mix of topics, both serious and lighter.

Dany Turcotte from what I could see even before the dumb question to Camara a week ago, had some difficulty adapting to the new format, and coming up with relevant interventions.

One often found that he'd break the rhythm of the interviews by saying stupid things, which left people wondering "why the hell are you there?"

He had a good run but it was time to go.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Loco101

. I don't watch the show on a regular basis but I love how it adopted a very European format, had glasses of wine and brought a different look into so many guests of all types than what you'd see on English-language TV.

As you may know it was adapted from a French show with the same name. It's actually outlasted the French show, which ran for 8 years. Our version has lasted 17.

A lot of people thought it was dying a slow death a year or two ago, but the pandemic seems to have given it a new relevancy.

I like how guests from totally different stripes engage with each other on widely different topics.

If the Americans had a show like this you might have Kamala Harris, Bill Gates, Taylor Swift, Jeff Foxworthy, Carl Sagan and Honey Boo Boo talking about Sesame Street, and for some reason they'd diverge to the collapse of the Iron Curtain. And then universal healthcare.

Regarding the wine I always wonder if it isn't against CRTC regulations to drink alcohol on TV. Of course no one would dream of telling them they can't.

[mousquet]

Originally Posted by Acajack

As you may know it was adapted from a French show with the same name. It's actually outlasted the French show, which ran for 8 years. Our version has lasted 17.

Ah yeah, Tout le Monde en Parle ! Pretty sure the original show was sometimes funny and pop over here in the 2000s, though it was on weekends, like late on Saturday nights or something, so it wasn't convenient for outgoing people who don't watch too much TV anyway. But it seems there was some jet set atmosphere, much like what they would do on Canal+ back then.

I think the host of the show, Thierry Ardisson was some sort of a prick that wouldn't really help the French and Quebecers make peace about their regional accents or local expressions...

• Video Link

This is not a bad instance. The Quebec guy was good looking and relaxed, the tone was rather friendly on this occasion. But Ardisson must've made some bad fun of Quebec in his show. That's the kind of guy he is, I think. Though of course, I don't know him.

Funny that they would recycle the show over there in Québec.

[le calmar]

Originally Posted by mousquet

But Ardisson must've made some bad fun of Quebec in his show. That's the kind of guy he is, I think. Though of course, I don't know him.

He did on at least on occasion. I recall he told a Quebec writer (I think?) to “lose the 17th century accent” or something like that. Personally, I don’t find that offensive. I spent 3 years in France so I was often the subject of jokes regarding my accent (which I had toned down to the point it was almost non-existent btw), but it was never done with bad intentions. The French just have a blunt sense of humour. That said it took me some time to get used to it. I don’t think Ardisson intended to be disrespectful. That’s part of his character.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by le calmar

He did on at least on occasion. I recall he told a Quebec writer (I think?) to “lose the 17th century accent” or something like that. Personally, I don’t find that offensive. I spent 3 years in France so I was often the subject of jokes regarding my accent (which I had toned down to the point it was almost non-existent btw), but it was never done with bad intentions. French just have a blunt sense of humour. That said it took me some time to get used to it. I don’t think Ardisson intended to be disrespectful. That’s part of his character.

Ardisson in particular seemed to have a "thing" for the Quebec accent. I can't really think of any other French TV hosts that were like him when it came to that.

He was fairly well-known in Quebec, probably at least partly due to this I suppose.

Though other hosts from France are also known to a certain class of people here. Thinking of people like Michel Drucker, Nagui, Patrick Sébastien, Jacques Martin (L'École des fans), etc.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by mousquet

Funny that they would recycle the show over there in Québec.

There are more exchanges than you might think.

We've had Caméra Café, L'École des fans and a ton of other concepts imported from France. I have appeared on Quebec game shows that are based on French shows.

Génies en herbe, Un gars une fille, Les Bougon, Les Invincibles, Surprise sur surprise, Like-moi, etc. are among a bunch of shows produced in France that are adaptations of our own shows. (Not sure how much you watch TV, or if you know these shows at all.)