Stadiums & Arenas of Canada, Part 3

[thurmas]

Originally Posted by Dalreg

Comparing apples to oranges. Building a soccer stadium in England is different to building a football stadium in Canada.

What is the difference? Both need grandstands and a basic pitch/ field and both can be used for football soccer and rugby. It's not like a multipurpose stadium for baseball and football back in the day

[MalcolmTucker]

Originally Posted by thurmas

What is the difference? Both need grandstands and a basic pitch/ field and both can be used for football soccer and rugby. It's not like a multipurpose stadium for baseball and football back in the day

Foundations to deal with freeze thaw cycles. Bathrooms heated to ensure pipes don’t burst. And looking at the stadium in Cardiff, perhaps egress capacity is building codes is quite different.

[jonny24]

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

Foundations to deal with freeze thaw cycles. Bathrooms heated to ensure pipes don’t burst. And looking at the stadium in Cardiff, perhaps egress capacity is building codes is quite different.

Snow loads would be a big one. Remember, "winter" in Britain mean "Time to pause cricket and go play football!" ..... not "hunker down for 4 months unless you're strapping some sort of apparatus to your feet" in terms of outdoor sports.

[thurmas]

Based on the 1976 exhibition stadium renovation that created the baseball grandstands at the CNE for the blue jays that was roughly 30000 seats it cost 17 million in in 1976 using an inflation calculator a similar bare bones stadium today would cost 77 million for a Canadian stadium

[JHikka]

Could returning to Olympic Stadium be in the Alouettes' future?

"While the Alouettes’ first choice — assuming there’s a CFL season in 2021 — would be to remain outdoors, at Molson Stadium, they might have no alternative but to return inside, to cavernous Olympic Stadium.

Alain Larochelle, the vice-president (operations and commercial development) at Olympic Park, had a 30-minute meeting last week with Als president Mario Cecchini, where the proposal of hosting the team was broached.

...

There’s no doubt social distancing could be maintained at the McGill University site, which has a capacity of 25,000. But the dressing rooms and showers are antiquated and small by pro sports standards. The concourse areas also are small, while there are basically only three points of entry into the facility.

...

Larochelle and his team have devised various scenarios that would see anywhere from zero spectators, to 6,000 in the lower bowl, and upwards of 11,600, while maintaining social distancing. They’ve also studied the entrance and exit patterns along with the use of bathrooms and concession stands. Even parking. Larochelle stated all provincial public health guidelines would be maintained without issues.

...

But while the Als just renewed their Olympic Stadium lease [for training, etc.], among the many conceived problems with the facility is the rental cost. While the organization realizes it’s going to be difficult to play at Molson Stadium, and now has been placed in a delicate position with McGill officials, it also doesn’t want to be gouged on game-day rental."

https://montrealgazette.com/sports/f...ouettes-future

[esquire]

^ Very interesting. Having attended football games at Olympic Stadium and Molson Stadium I, as a fan, would choose Olympic Stadium 99 times out of 100. Molson Stadium would be OK on a nice, warm, sunny fall afternoon but all other times I'd pick the Big O even if it was nearly empty. But apparently Montrealers don't feel the same way... I would have thought there would at least be some kind of retro nostalgia appeal for a place that loomed so large in the civic psyche for its first 30-odd years?

Anyway, this makes sense as a Covid-19 contingency plan, and it could be a good way to test the waters for a potential full time move back, especially given that Olympic Stadium is much better suited to modern-day pro sports than an antiquated venue like Molson Stadium.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by esquire

Anyway, this makes sense as a Covid-19 contingency plan, and it could be a good way to test the waters for a potential full time move back, especially given that Olympic Stadium is much better suited to modern-day pro sports than an antiquated venue like Molson Stadium.

They're both antiquated in different ways. Molson is too small and Oylmpic is too big. It makes sense for a few games in 2021 if rental costs can be kept down (Zurkowsky surmises at the end of the article that an 18-game season may be unlikely) but anything longer term it seems like either a lateral move or a worsening position. For me, Olympic is an old, outdated, concrete slab of nothingness well past its best before date, whereas Molson is at least in a picturesque outdoor setting despite having clear shortcomings itself. Probably no winning situations for the Als.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by JHikka

They're both antiquated in different ways. Molson is too small and Oylmpic is too big. It makes sense for a few games in 2021 if rental costs can be kept down (Zurkowsky surmises at the end of the article that an 18-game season may be unlikely) but anything longer term it seems like either a lateral move or a worsening position. For me, Olympic is an old, outdated, concrete slab of nothingness well past its best before date, whereas Molson is at least in a picturesque outdoor setting despite having clear shortcomings itself. Probably no winning situations for the Als.

Most people probably agree with you when it comes to preference. Montreal is such a weird town in that regard in that they have three stadiums but none are ideal for football, and none are even remotely feasible for baseball except on an interim basis. If you look at their history it has other such short-lived, not great stadiums like Jarry Park (in its MLB configuration) and Autostade. Is there another city with as many misses when it comes to stadiums?

I suppose this could just be a negotiating ploy... much like when the Blue Jays threatened to go back to Exhibition Stadium sometime around 2000 or so, it could be a way for the Alouettes to remind McGill University that they have alternatives.

[MalcolmTucker]

Originally Posted by thurmas

Based on the 1976 exhibition stadium renovation that created the baseball grandstands at the CNE for the blue jays that was roughly 30000 seats it cost 17 million in in 1976 using an inflation calculator a similar bare bones stadium today would cost 77 million for a Canadian stadium

and construction inflation has outpaced mainline. And that assumes we could build the same structure with building codes and all.


Now, I think we probably way overbuild stadiums, and especially CFL stadiums the builders probably over build in both standards and amenities because it is less than a generational opportunity. If instead we built $100 million stadiums with adaptability of the facility in mind, maybe then $20 million each decade to round off the edges would keep a facility current forever. Instead of spending the equivalent of $250 million every 40 years.

[thurmas]

The big o might make more sense for the alouettes as Molson has become so outdated in basic amenities now and its wrigley field fenway park charm of 20 years ago seems to have warn off. I dunno but I think the als should poll their season ticket holders and the general public to see what they would prefer

[esquire]

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

Now, I think we probably way overbuild stadiums, and especially CFL stadiums the builders probably over build in both standards and amenities because it is less than a generational opportunity. If instead we built $100 million stadiums with adaptability of the facility in mind, maybe then $20 million each decade to round off the edges would keep a facility current forever. Instead of spending the equivalent of $250 million every 40 years.

That's basically how the previous generation of CFL stadiums was built. If you look at the ones that existed in 1960 and then compared the ones that remained CFL stadiums to their state 30 years later, several (Winnipeg, Hamilton, Ottawa, Sask, Calgary) were significantly upgraded and enlarged on a gradual basis to the point where in some cases they barely resembled the original structure.

But there is a downside to that approach as well... if you look at old Winnipeg Stadium and old Mosaic, both were always kind of behind the curve in terms of what was current, and the older parts of the stadiums were not well maintained. So you had this weird situation where money was spent on nice stadium club upgrades while the older parts of the structures were crumbling.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by thurmas

The big o might make more sense for the alouettes as Molson has become so outdated in basic amenities now and its wrigley field fenway park charm of 20 years ago seems to have warn off. I dunno but I think the als should poll their season ticket holders and the general public to see what they would prefer

It's funny that they're thinking of walking considering all of the upgrades and expansions they've paid for over the last 20-odd years. It was basically an abandoned structure before the Als moved back in 1998... I remember walking around inside back in the summer of 97 and it was literally crumbling, with the infamous tree growing through the north stands.

[wave46]

Originally Posted by esquire

It's funny that they're thinking of walking considering all of the upgrades and expansions they've paid for over the last 20-odd years. It was basically an abandoned structure before the Als moved back in 1998... I remember walking around inside back in the summer of 97 and it was literally crumbling, with the infamous tree growing through the north stands.

I think your assessment of shaking the money tree to see what falls out is correct.

That being said, they don't have tons of leverage, so I wouldn't be surprised that the ownership gets a collective shrug to the threat. It's not like the masses will inundate the Big O for an Al's game.

In fact, the fans might just do what they did to the Argos, except going from small to big. React with a collective shrug and have attendance continue to fall.

[thurmas]

Since their training grounds are and offices are at big o olympic Park maybe they can share stade saputo and renovate one end to accommodate a cfl field and use the big o for big rivalry games and or playoffs and grey cups

[esquire]

Originally Posted by thurmas

Since their training grounds are and offices are at big o olympic Park maybe they can share stade saputo and renovate one end to accommodate a cfl field and use the big o for big rivalry games and or playoffs and grey cups

Saputo seems like the worst of both worlds right now though, it has the inconvenient location of Olympic Stadium but without the big-stadium benefits that would be useful if social distancing is still going to be a consideration.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by wave46

In fact, the fans might just do what they did to the Argos, except going from small to big. React with a collective shrug and have attendance continue to fall.

Particularly if the 2021 CFL season isn't able to get off the ground until August/September, IE at the exact same time as the NFL.

Originally Posted by thurmas

Since their training grounds are and offices are at big o olympic Park maybe they can share stade saputo and renovate one end to accommodate a cfl field and use the big o for big rivalry games and or playoffs and grey cups

CF Montreal probably say no to this and I doubt the Als would front the money required for such renovations.

[thurmas]

Long term the als new owners will have to do something either renovate Molson or move back to the Olympics grounds as they are steel industry guys maybe they can strike a sweet heart reno deal in 5 years or so

[esquire]

Originally Posted by thurmas

Long term the als new owners will have to do something either renovate Molson or move back to the Olympics grounds as they are steel industry guys maybe they can strike a sweet heart reno deal in 5 years or so

From the sounds of it, Molson Stadium is generally OK on gameday, the problem is with the lack of team facilities (inadequate dressing rooms, etc. and the fact that I don't think the team has regular access to the stadium as it's a university facility except for when the Als are actually playing).

I don't know how you really get around that short of working out a deal with McGill to get them to move out of the gym/kinesiology building that abuts the south side of the stadium, build/renovate a team complex, and then find somewhere else for the displaced faculty. Oh, and get permission to actually practice there. Maybe when the Als were drawing big crowds they could have pulled that off, but I doubt they have the means to do it now. I mean, not unless their owners want to sink a pile of money into the franchise that they may not get back out of it.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by esquire

Saputo seems like the worst of both worlds right now though, it has the inconvenient location of Olympic Stadium but without the big-stadium benefits that would be useful if social distancing is still going to be a consideration.

Inconvenient location ? We have one arena at the far west end and a stadium/arena complex in an area with no rapid transit.

Saputo (don't think I knew about before today) seems like a good long-term option once the pandemic is over. It's a good size for Montreal football and wouldn't be too expensive to upgrade (based on size) compared to the Big O.

I agree Big O would be a good options for physical distancing, and rivalries in the future.

[esquire]

^ Hey, I have no problem with Olympic Stadium's location but it always came up as an explanation for poor attendance at Expos/Alouettes games at the Big O.