CHICAGO | General Discussions

[jtown,man]

Originally Posted by Handro

You think loosening "regulations" is the sliver bullet to reverse population loss and solve crime? Lol ok.

Dude, you know that isn't my whole point. Stop making my concerns seem more simple than they are.

Its taxes, regulations, culture that accepts a certain level of crime, politicians beholden to activists and unions, judges who keep letting out repeat offenders, the state which is about to pass a law that bans bail on the 14th.

I don't understand why people like you don't care to look into these issues.

Are regulations overly burdensome? Have you thought about that?
Are our politics normal?
Are our taxes worth what we get in return?
Why are so many people leaving this place?

It's just like some of my classmates, they ignore things that might challenge their worldviews. In order to answer some of those questions you might get answers that you don't like. Tough.

[the urban politician]

Originally Posted by Handro

You think loosening "regulations" is the sliver bullet to reverse population loss and solve crime? Lol ok.

Dramatically cutting involvement of Government in controlling life and business, particularly the corrupt thugs that run Chicago, will indeed increase population and development. Multi fold. I think it would make a massive difference. It would also open up HUGE amounts of affordable housing.

Example: look at the project that Ald Reilly rejected (go to Chicago: General Developments thread). Lower density despite complying with zoning. All to appease that worthless fuck of a man whose whole existence is meaningless. He literally exists for no reason. So many examples of people in Government existing for no other reason than shake down the private sector. They are bad characters disguising themselves as “servants of the public”.

[LouisVanDerWright]

Originally Posted by the urban politician

Dramatically cutting involvement of Government in controlling life and business, particularly the corrupt thugs that run Chicago, will indeed increase population and development. Multi fold. I think it would make a massive difference. It would also open up HUGE amounts of affordable housing.

Example: look at the project that Ald Reilly rejected (go to Chicago: General Developments thread). Lower density despite complying with zoning. All to appease that worthless fuck of a man whose whole existence is meaningless. He literally exists for no reason. So many examples of people in Government existing for no other reason than shake down the private sector. They are bad characters disguising themselves as “servants of the public”.

Lol Carlos Rosa just shut down the tenant of one of his main nemises, Nick Katsafados, for having a "party" in their retail space. The guy is a small scale filming business using the retail space and had a small event with a few people (like 10) at, social distancing, masks, etc all being followed. Rosa literally personally sicced the city on them because they don't like his landlord...

Welcome to Chicago.

[Vlajos]

Originally Posted by Handro

You think loosening "regulations" is the sliver bullet to reverse population loss and solve crime? Lol ok.

I absolutely believe loosening regulation will help stem our massive population loss. Our regulatory environment caues businesses to struggle and close, slowing economic growth, job growth, and driving population loss.

[OrdoSeclorum]

Originally Posted by Vlajos

I absolutely believe loosening regulation will help stem our massive population loss. Our regulatory environment caues businesses to struggle and close, slowing economic growth, job growth, and driving population loss.

If that's the case, then Chicago and Illinois have an extremely easy path to go from being merely prosperous to being a globally significant economic region. Most problems don't have solutions require investment and aren't as easy as "remove some unnecessary laws."

Me, I think it's obvious that Chicago was the most significant manufacturing center of not just the Midwest, but the world, for decades. The almost complete transformation of that industry is a generational drag that we're just starting to fully recover from. Coupled with that is an aging population that will continue to retire away from employment centers for the next decade.

If we can sustain modest growth and leverage our significant assets until 2030, Illinois will be in a position to take advantage of those assets without having to drop our pants.

[the urban politician]

Originally Posted by OrdoSeclorum

If that's the case, then Chicago and Illinois have an extremely easy path to go from being merely prosperous to being a globally significant economic region. Most problems don't have solutions require investment and aren't as easy as "remove some unnecessary laws."

Me, I think it's obvious that Chicago was the most significant manufacturing center of not just the Midwest, but the world, for decades. The almost complete transformation of that industry is a generational drag that we're just starting to fully recover from. Coupled with that is an aging population that will continue to retire away from employment centers for the next decade.

If we can sustain modest growth and leverage our significant assets until 2030, Illinois will be in a position to take advantage of those assets without having to drop our pants.

^ It's not just regulations, but it's the self-serving nature of Government, and the burden that creates on society.

In Illinois, increasingly it seems that Government in part exists to tax the public in order to pay salaries and pensions, as opposed to providing necessary services efficiently to society.

There is no better real life example than Illinois' piss poor distribution of the Covid vaccine right now. Literally this is ONE area where Government is really needed, and it's doing a miserable job.

[OrdoSeclorum]

Originally Posted by the urban politician

There is no better real life example than Illinois' piss poor distribution of the Covid vaccine right now. Literally this is ONE area where Government is really needed, and it's doing a miserable job.

Miserable seems a little ungenerous. The 10th best state has distributed 83.6% of their vaccine. The 40th best state has distributed 71.2%. Illinois has distributed 72.3%

I think the states that are doing the least to ensure it goes to vulnerable and underserved communities are distributing it the most efficiently, but I don't know whether or not that's most effective. But I'm certainly in the camp of "just get the vaccine out there and worry less about details" myself.

[jtown,man]

My class got the chance to have a Calumet City official come and speak with us. The FIRST thing she brought up in her presentation was that it was great that they were a "home rule" city, meaning they can do things other cities can't. Her only example? Having a sales tax that is 2% higher than the states.

Huh? Then she went on to talk about their number one goal as a city is to increase tax revenue and keep their retail sector up and going.

She doesn't realize Indiana is literally across the border from them. Residents can easily move or shop there and save tons. The city keeps raising its property taxes to keep the government's income increasing every year despite a population that decreases every year.

How does that make sense? Why is the city's revenue keep climbing while its population is going down? They keep increasing taxes, which then leads to more people leaving, which leads to them to keep raising taxes. Why do they need so much revenue? Because they are running the city as if they had the same population as 20 years ago, despite losing 25% of their population.

It all reeks of a scheme to keep the idiots in their jobs and to keep the machine running.


This is the issue in this area, it's not small. It's not laughable. It is serious and is killing the region. At least in areas with high property values and low property taxes you can cash out when you sell. Not here, you can buy a modest home and sell it for barely any more than you paid and sink enough money in taxes every year equivalent to paying rent in Dallas.

It's not sustainable. How is it that government revenue needs to be X amount higher her per person than in many other large cities? Do we REALLY get that much better services? Data would prove that false.

It's the same thing with the CPS. Their budget gets larger every year (even factoring in inflation) yet every year they lose students. Why don't people call them out on this BS?

[IrishIllini]

Property taxes in Texas (esp. Austin, Dallas, and Houston) are high. The average rate for 2021 is higher than Illinois.

Tennessee is the real steal, and it's much closer. Low property taxes and no income tax.

[the urban politician]

Originally Posted by IrishIllini

Property taxes in Texas (esp. Austin, Dallas, and Houston) are high. The average rate for 2021 is higher than Illinois.

^ I'm not doubting you, but do you have the data to back this?

I'm talking specifically about Chicagoland (Not Illinois) property taxes versus some of the major Texas metros

[IrishIllini]

Originally Posted by the urban politician

^ I'm not doubting you, but do you have the data to back this?

I'm talking specifically about Chicagoland (Not Illinois) property taxes versus some of the major Texas metros

http://www.tax-rates.org/taxtables/p...y-tax-by-state

Doesn't make sense to not compare state-wide rates unless you have specific communities in mind w/ similar socioeconomic profiles. Naperville vs. Plano, TX

https://www.redfin.com/IL/Naperville.../home/23390515
2019 Tax Bill: $7,921

https://www.redfin.com/TX/Plano/712-.../home/32075554
2019 Tax Bill: $8,350

Naperville house is older (1980) than the Plano house (1993). Plano house has more curb appeal, but interior needs updating - Naperville house has been recently renovated. Median income is about $10k higher in Naperville. You'd pay ~$5k in state income taxes in IL and $0 in TX, but that still puts the median Naperville resident ahead w/o accounting for other taxes. At a 35,000ft level, it looks like a wash at the end of the day. TX also has underfunded public pensions (though not as bad), corruption, and other BS we talk about here.

It's unfortunate that the speaker from Cal City doesn't understand that people could avoid their sales tax by shopping out of state or in other communities with lower rates (does Cal City even have much retail?), but I'd wager most border-town municipal leaders understand how that is a delicate situation. Much of southern Cook Co. is the victim of white flight and the subsequent disinvestment that wrecked neighborhoods on the southside a generation earlier. In 1990, Cal City was 70% white. By 2000 it was less than 40% white and it has only fallen further since. Same story as Englewood, Washington Park, etc.

To be clear, I'm not saying black people aren't capable of developing vibrant and sustainable communities, but historically, black homeowners have become the majority because white homeowners no longer valued the community (deindustrialization, rising legacy costs, greener pastures a few highway exits further out, etc.).

[jtown,man]

Originally Posted by IrishIllini

Property taxes in Texas (esp. Austin, Dallas, and Houston) are high. The average rate for 2021 is higher than Illinois.

Tennessee is the real steal, and it's much closer. Low property taxes and no income tax.

True about Texas.

But no income tax. So, keep your income going up and don't move to a very expensive place!

But yes, Tennessee is getting it right!

[sentinel]

Originally Posted by jtown,man

True about Texas.

But no income tax. So, keep your income going up and don't move to a very expensive place!

But yes, Tennessee is getting it right!

Quoting my own post from two months ago regarding the myth of Texas taxes being so great.

Originally Posted by sentinel

Interesting, but then I remember a number of things:

- The Tribune editorial board is anything but impartial, so as soon as I see anything from them, it raises a red flag in my mind

- Texas may not have state income taxes, but federal income taxes still apply

- Texas has to offset that revenue loss some how, so Texans pay higher sales and property taxes than most other states.

- Texas also receives additional tax revenue from oill and natural gas production, essentially like a smaller version of Saudi Arabia, which helps offset need for income taxes. Illinois doesn't have that luxury.

- If you live along the gulf coast like 9-10 million Texans do, chances are you'll also have to pay higher home insurance rates, as well as hurricane insurance. Houston metro and Galveston have been hit with at least three 100 or 500 year storms/flooding just within the past 5 years, and thanks to no zoning laws, so there's a good chance that new 4,000 sq ft house you bought for $250,000 is built in a floodplain and will be partially inundated within another 5 years time. 150,000 homes were damaged due to flooding from Hurricane Harvey in 2017.

- Texans also pay higher general goods sales taxes and higher vehicle taxes

- Texas ranks 39th out of all 50 states + DC in total education spending per student, which is shocking (but perhaps not surprising the highly conservative political landscape there), considering it's one of the wealthiest states in the union.

- Texas is also a net positive state with regards to federal funding distribution, meaning they take more money than they contribute; Illinois is the opposite, because it's bled dry to make states like Texas thrive because the average household income is higher in Illinois than in Texas. Texas is a 'getter' state, essentially getting handouts from other, 'giver' states.

- Texas is triple the size of Illinois, with the added benefit of 4 large metropolitan/urbanized areas that helps balance out their lack of state income taxes. Illinois has one. I've said it before, but Illinois' biggest problem is too many small government entities, as well as a stupidly written state constitutional amendment regarding pension liabilities.

Of course only one side of the story will be told by a parochial paper like the Tribune.

[the urban politician]

Originally Posted by IrishIllini

http://www.tax-rates.org/taxtables/p...y-tax-by-state

Doesn't make sense to not compare state-wide rates unless you have specific communities in mind w/ similar socioeconomic profiles. Naperville vs. Plano, TX

https://www.redfin.com/IL/Naperville.../home/23390515
2019 Tax Bill: $7,921

https://www.redfin.com/TX/Plano/712-.../home/32075554
2019 Tax Bill: $8,350

^ Uhhh, ok so you literally cherry picked 2 homes instead of providing much more comprehensive data.

But did you look at the square footage of both homes? The Illinois home: about 2000 sf. The TX home: 3700 sf.

So the TX home has almost double the improved square footage yet a nearly identical tax bill.

[the urban politician]

Originally Posted by sentinel

Quoting my own post from two months ago regarding the myth of Texas taxes being so great.

And frankly, I feel that your response leaves a lot to be desired.

First of all, I reject this notion that the Tribune is some sort of fringe, highly opinionated newspaper. That's BS, you may not agree with them but it's Chicago's flagship newspaper for 150 damn years, dude, they know Chicago. They've got Clarence Page, Dahleen Glanton, and yes, John Kass as contributors. That's what a newspaper does--different viewpoints.

Secondly, I don't give 2 shits if Texas has oil and gas. They have their financial house in order, period. Illinois has industry too. Lots of it. Lots of wealth generators. But we've pissed it away in shitty decision making. Perhaps that's why we sold off our parking meters and have considered selling off other public assets to pay the bills.

The higher TX insurance rates have nothing to do with wasteful Government spending. TX can't help being located on the gulf coast.

Also, TX having 4 metropolitan areas versus Illinois having Chicagoland still has little to do with wasteful spending. Government lives within its means.

Point being, the issue isn't necessarily the higher taxes per se, the issue is the fact that the taxes are higher (and only going up) due to irresponsibility, corruption, and backroom dealing. Illinois owns this.

[glowrock]

Originally Posted by jtown,man

True about Texas.

But no income tax. So, keep your income going up and don't move to a very expensive place!

But yes, Tennessee is getting it right!

Tennessee also has an atrociously high state sales tax, really terrible overall infrastructure, and a major city which has an overall crime and murder rate far above Chicago (Memphis). It also, outside of Nashville, really, is quite poor and rural (excepting Memphis and Nashville). One advantage it has is massive federal funding in terms of both Oak Ridge National Laboratory as well as of course legacy TVA projects and their continual funding.

Aaron (Glowrock)

[sentinel]

Originally Posted by the urban politician

And frankly, I feel that your response leaves a lot to be desired.

First of all, I reject this notion that the Tribune is some sort of fringe, highly opinionated newspaper. That's BS, you may not agree with them but it's Chicago's flagship newspaper for 150 damn years, dude, they know Chicago. They've got Clarence Page, Dahleen Glanton, and yes, John Kass as contributors. That's what a newspaper does--different viewpoints.

Secondly, I don't give 2 shits if Texas has oil and gas. They have their financial house in order, period. Illinois has industry too. Lots of it. Lots of wealth generators. But we've pissed it away in shitty decision making. Perhaps that's why we sold off our parking meters and have considered selling off other public assets to pay the bills.

The higher TX insurance rates have nothing to do with wasteful Government spending. TX can't help being located on the gulf coast.

Also, TX having 4 metropolitan areas versus Illinois having Chicagoland still has little to do with wasteful spending. Government lives within its means.

Point being, the issue isn't necessarily the higher taxes per se, the issue is the fact that the taxes are higher (and only going up) due to irresponsibility, corruption, and backroom dealing. Illinois owns this.

Still on the Tribune kick, huh?

[sentinel]

Originally Posted by the urban politician

^ Uhhh, ok so you literally cherry picked 2 homes instead of providing much more comprehensive data.

But did you look at the square footage of both homes? The Illinois home: about 2000 sf. The TX home: 3700 sf.

So the TX home has almost double the improved square footage yet a nearly identical tax bill.

Conveniently leaving out the fact that it takes a lot more energy to power, heat and cool a home that is nearly twice the size.

[sentinel]

Originally Posted by the urban politician

And frankly, I feel that your response leaves a lot to be desired.

First of all, I reject this notion that the Tribune is some sort of fringe, highly opinionated newspaper. That's BS, you may not agree with them but it's Chicago's flagship newspaper for 150 damn years, dude, they know Chicago. They've got Clarence Page, Dahleen Glanton, and yes, John Kass as contributors. That's what a newspaper does--different viewpoints.

Secondly, I don't give 2 shits if Texas has oil and gas. They have their financial house in order, period. Illinois has industry too. Lots of it. Lots of wealth generators. But we've pissed it away in shitty decision making. Perhaps that's why we sold off our parking meters and have considered selling off other public assets to pay the bills.

The higher TX insurance rates have nothing to do with wasteful Government spending. TX can't help being located on the gulf coast.

Also, TX having 4 metropolitan areas versus Illinois having Chicagoland still has little to do with wasteful spending. Government lives within its means.

Point being, the issue isn't necessarily the higher taxes per se, the issue is the fact that the taxes are higher (and only going up) due to irresponsibility, corruption, and backroom dealing. Illinois owns this.

That fact that you believe your own words that I bolded is hilarious.

Texas is essentially killing it's residents in a deep freeze right now (that will probably be more common than not in the future) because of deregulation, and a false promise of energy independence. Deregulation has only helped a handful of corporate entities, while forcing regular people to fend for themselves.

You are most definitely NOT the arbiter of what is fair and balanced, and the fact that you mention John Kass is laughable, considering he is an out-of-touch, less than reputable opinion columnist.

If Texas is so great, have you considered moving there?

[the urban politician]

^ I mentioned John Kass along with two other of the Tribune’s commentators who are far to the left of him to point out that the Tribune is, ahem, a real newspaper that delivers real news from various perspectives. Just because it’s not doing what various media outlets do today which is to pander to the political biases of its readership is actually laudable. I’m sorry that that doesn’t work for you but we need to see more of that today.

Regarding the rest of your post, utterly misses by a mile in responding to anything I just said. Texas’ Government is doing a million times better than Illinois is at living within its means and you simply cannot refute that. The fact that there is a deep freeze and they are having issues as a result of that has little to do with the topic.

Here in Chicagoland we have pipes bursting, water mains bursting, flooding, huge power outages as well. None of our higher taxes have done anything to prevent that