DENVER | Main Development Thread #7

[SirLucasTheGreat]

I've been watching a presentation from the raill passengers association discussing the front range passenger rail just because I find this interesting. One of the proposed routes would bypass downtown Denver altogether and follow e470 directly to the airport, with connections in lone tree and in Thornton to the RTD system. Does not seem that that path would likely go forward because it was based on a 2014 Obama era study assuming high speed rail traveling up to 220 mph. In addition, I think there would be some resistance in Colorado Springs because that sort of connection to DIA would really hurt their local airport. Based on what happened in California, I think most of the momentum will be for rail speeds at 90-110 mph that don't require the elevated right of way needed for a true high speed rail system. If Amtrak builds out this system, can't they use the same tracks and platform that they use for the California Zephyr at Denver Union Station?

[twister244]

Originally Posted by Ich

https://www.bizjournals.com/denver/news/...ntown-denver-coronavirus-urban-core.html

Pretty cool article about the future of downtown. One notable part was Amacon saying they are still moving forward with their twin tower condo project.

I don't have access to the article, but is there any new information that we don't already know about Amacon? We've all been hearing about this project for almost three years now, but still no movement, no sales site, still under review according to the city website.....

[mr1138]

Originally Posted by wong21fr

You'd probably end up with either no-through service and DUS would be the terminus or a new station adjacent to the LRT terminal. If through service is a strong desire than why not build a new trainshed that accommodates LRT and Front Range Rail? It would be tight, but it's possible to put a three or four platform station there.

While it is also my understanding that the long-term plan would be to put it adjacent the LRT terminal, I have never understood exactly why a Front Range Rail service could not use the regular DUS trainshed.

Many, many, many train stations all across the world are stub-end stations without through tracks. Trains can still use these stations because most trains are bi-directional. Over half of the train stations I have used in Europe are stub-end, and through trains using these stations simply change direction and pull out in reverse - this is why half the seats on most trains face backward. London's King's Cross and St Pancras stations are both this way, so is Paris' Gare du Nord and Gare de l'Est, both Munich's and Frankfurt's Hauptbannhofs, Vienna's Westbannhof, Florence's Santa Maria Novella, and Rome's Termini train stations - and this is just to name a few that I have personally been through. These stations may not offer the same operational advantages as a through-station like Amsterdam's Centraal, but they are still perfectly usable stations by modern trains.

Here in Denver, our commuter trains change direction at DUS every time they pull in and out. Even an "old fashioned" train like the Amtrak, which is not bi-directional, uses the station and has a procedure to turn the train around after backing out on its way from Chicago to SF and back again. This is admittedly a rather slow process, but it can be done.

I suppose this depends on the technology - traditional passenger rail vs. a modern electric trainset - you wouldn't want dozens of trains a day turning around the way the Amtrak does. But I guess I don't understand why a BRAND NEW service like Front Range Rail couldn't be designed as a bi-directional train like every other modern train in the world capable of using a stub-end station. Presumably even DMU as planned for the B-line is capable of doing this.

[SirLucasTheGreat]

What mr1138 said

[TakeFive]

Originally Posted by EngiNerd

Definitely the L-towns are getting the raw end of the deal. Louisville, out of all of them, would have benefited the most because the train would have actually gone right adjacent to their downtown.

What needs to happen is the train goes to Louisville as planned, and then run it straight up 95th Street to Longmont. Then maybe one day when Boulder gets its head out of its ass (doubtful) and allows the train further into the central district they can build their own spur.

This seems to make too much sense.

I had to pull up a map to orient myself. It's funny; I can remember eating good Italian food in Louisville; I used to enjoy going down to Niwot from time to time. But 95th Street drew a blank. Had a good chuckle when I realized 95th Street connects the two.

Originally Posted by wong21fr

Really the only chance of anything happening with NW rail is a joint effort between RTD, the state, and Amtrak in guise of Front Range Rail which is likely what Polis' grand-standing is ultimately about: get $'s from the feds.

This one statement cost me a lot of my time; fortunately since the Nuggets game was boring I had the time.

So I see where Amtrak has expressed interest in running more 'local' style routes but I don't see this as a good option; I'm focusing more on Polis' obsession.

If Polis could get the State to pony up a chunk of money that along with matching grants gets us closer.

Is it possible that BNSF could go from being a villain to being a cooperative buddy?

I was familiar with Xcel's plan to close both Comanche 1 and Comanche 2 coal plants in Pueblo. Now I learn that Colorado Spring Utilities will close both of their coal plants, one in 2023 and the other in 2030. That's a Schnitt-ton of coal-hauling business that BNSF will soon be losing; hasn't coal been BNSF' biggest payload? This could be reason enough for BNSF to look elsewhere for revenue and if an RTD commuter train would do that then Voila.

As an aside, are you aware of all the problems Xcel has had with their shiny new $1.4 billion Comanche 3 plant? Turns out that most of the stuff (piping etc) that they ordered from Alstom came out of their Czech plant and was total crap. Xcel has had to rebuild major parts of this facility as a result.

[wong21fr]

Originally Posted by TakeFive

I was familiar with Xcel's plan to close both Comanche 1 and Comanche 2 coal plants in Pueblo. Now I learn that Colorado Spring Utilities will close both of their coal plants, one in 2023 and the other in 2030. That's a Schnitt-ton of coal-hauling business that BNSF will soon be losing; hasn't coal been BNSF' biggest payload? This could be reason enough for BNSF to look elsewhere for revenue and if an RTD commuter train would do that then Voila.

As an aside, are you aware of all the problems Xcel has had with their shiny new $1.4 billion Comanche 3 plant? Turns out that most of the stuff (piping etc) that they ordered from Alstom came out of their Czech plant and was total crap. Xcel has had to rebuild major parts of this facility as a result.

That's five units which while being a lot of coal- isn't a ton of coal. BSNF still hauls a ton of coal out of the PWR down to Texas which constitutes the vast majority of the freight traffic along their line. CO consumed 1.4M tons of out of WY in Q320 (not all going on BSNF lines down the Front Range), TX consumed 8.7M tons out of WY. TX is planning on stretching out their coal retirements through 2050 while I don't think there will be a coal plant operating in CO post 2030 (asides from maybe a TriState unit) so the lines are still vital for all that dirty carbon coming out the PWR. I doubt BSNF is suddenly willing to drop their upgrade/leasing requirements by a ton. Maybe you'd end up with a couple hundred million in cost reductions at the most.

I don't think your deep thought has a ton or merit in terms of BSNF suddenly being desperate to monetize a suddenly defunct rail line.

[TakeFive]

The Funding way Forward

The American Rescue Plan is supposed to have another $20 billion for transit. Whatever RTD's share will help a lot but hardly enough to fund Commuter Rail to Boulder.

Biden also held a 'bipartisan' meeting in the Oval where he stated: "China is going to ‘eat our lunch’ if U.S. doesn’t get moving on infrastructure"
This might be the biggest hope for funding Polis' dream. Not sure it's the "highest and best use" but whatever.

Originally Posted by mr1138

While it is also my understanding that the long-term plan would be to put it adjacent the LRT terminal, I have never understood exactly why a Front Range Rail service could not use the regular DUS trainshed.

Waaay over my head but two-way ability sounds like the only way to roll.

I'm having great difficulty envisioning all this. We already have EMU's running up to Westminster and it makes good sense to extend the existing B Line to Westminster's new downtown at 88th and U.S. 36 (where it could intersect with the Flatiron Flyer). Would a commuter train to Boulder/Longmont be a totally different train and route? How does this work?

Originally Posted by wong21fr

I don't think your deep thought has a ton or merit in terms of BSNF suddenly being desperate to monetize a suddenly defunct rail line.

- NVM; what is "PWR" ?

[laniroj]

Originally Posted by EngiNerd

Definitely the L-towns are getting the raw end of the deal. Louisville, out of all of them, would have benefited the most because the train would have actually gone right adjacent to their downtown.

What needs to happen is the train goes to Louisville as planned, and then run it straight up 95th Street to Longmont. Then maybe one day when Boulder gets its head out of its ass (doubtful) and allows the train further into the central district they can build their own spur.

Hell naw dawg. For all intents and purposes, Louisville has become Boulder. It's like differentiating Crestmoor Park to Cranmer Park - distinction without a difference. Louisville just voted down a massive growth opportunity with great jobs and housing. Screw Louisville and all the other anti-growth bedroom communities.

[laniroj]

Originally Posted by jhwk

All are pretty poor options due to asinine federal regulations and the great recession preventing the original Union Station plan from being built, where trains were under the bus terminal.

Just call Elon. He will build the train tunnels for $30 million each.

[wong21fr]

Originally Posted by TakeFive

- NVM; what is "PWR" ?

Powder River Basin.

[TakeFive]

Originally Posted by wong21fr

Powder River Basin.

That was my 1st thought but when I tried to google-confirm nothing came up. Shouldn't it be PRB?

[wong21fr]

Originally Posted by TakeFive

That was my 1st thought but when I tried to google-confirm nothing came up. Shouldn't it be PRB?

Could/should be. But I've seen it shortened as that abbreviation in studies- guess it stuck in my mind.

[TakeFive]

Warning - Bunch of good development posts coming soon...

Nah, not rds70 quality good posts. I'm relegated to the more mundane but we'll see if we can't spice things up.

Originally Posted by Ich

https://www.bizjournals.com/denver/news/...ntown-denver-coronavirus-urban-core.html

Pretty cool article about the future of downtown. One notable part was Amacon saying they are still moving forward with their twin tower condo project.

I did read this; you're correct it was quite good.

Think Congregation; not disintegration

Mark Falcone has heard the concerns of those who fear the coronavirus could leave urban centers such as Denver's permanently damaged. But he rejects that notion emphatically, noting the basic desire of human beings to congregate.

"It's not like cities haven't had to endure plagues, war, conflict, sieges. I mean, cities are incredibly resilient, durable places," Falcone said.

You gotta love Tami Door

"But the reality is that Denver has been asking, 'What's our future?' every day, every week, every month, every year, for decades and decades. And that is how we are where we are today."

And a few of us have been around long enough to appreciate exactly what she is saying.

[semiurban]

Originally Posted by TakeFive

Warning - Bunch of good development posts coming soon...

Did you fall asleep behind the wheel of your Uber or did they turn out to be Phoenix developments?

[DenvertoLA]

I'm rarely ever anti-development, but this is just sad. I saw a similar situation happen in Venice Beach when all the sculptures were kicked out to make room for snapchat. Art galleries and studios are what made RINO cool. This building is newly renovated! Now it will probably get knocked over for a subpar 8 story apartment building.

https://milehighcre.com/rino-office-building-sells-for-3-2m/


"According to the Denver Post, the fully renovated property was formerly occupied by Helikon Gallery & Studios, which cited high property taxes as a reason for closing its doors. "

[SirLucasTheGreat]

.The purchaser has a long-term vision for this property, and we were able to find an extremely stable tenant that will help them realize their investment goals for many years to come,” stated Corey Sandberg.

It doesn't sound like they are demolishing it soon but I'm not involved in the industry so my opinion is not worth much.

[gopokes21]

Originally Posted by semiurban

Did you fall asleep behind the wheel of your Uber or did they turn out to be Phoenix developments?

I'm going to guess both

Here's an amazing adaptive reuse into affordable housing that will anchor the Loretto Heights redevelopment. Article has some sweet pics.

https://denverite.com/2021/02/16/a-peek-...ll-soon-be-very-chic-affordable-housing/



For background here's the Loretto Heights Area Plan, which it looks like will absorb 1,000-2,000 new residential units and a bunch of other anchor uses.

https://www.denvergov.org/content/dam/de...lans/Loretto_Heights_Small_Area_Plan.pdf

[TakeFive]

Originally Posted by semiurban

Did you fall asleep behind the wheel of your Uber or did they turn out to be Phoenix developments?

Yeah, got jammed up yesterday. My son played being dyslexic and thought it was "Present's" day; what's a dad to do? Tuesday's are Senior Day at Goodwill so I got a good night's sleep. Got time for one post as tonight there's a double-header with Nuggets at 5:00 pm and Avalanche at 8:00 pm.

[TakeFive]

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[DenvertoLA]

Originally Posted by SirLucasTheGreat

It doesn't sound like they are demolishing it soon but I'm not involved in the industry so my opinion is not worth much.

I hope you're right.