NEW YORK | Empire Station District | 9 Towers (18-20 msf)| FT | FLOORS

[JMKeynes]

Originally Posted by BK1985

In the interest of not starting an argument we will just have to agree to disagree.

I agree. Cheers.

[NYguy]

Originally Posted by mrnyc

actually a casino would only be a draw for ny’ers. casinos are everywhere these days.

Ant the tourists would still go in. Anything in Manhattan would be a draw for tourists, simply because it's New York. There are parks, skyscrapers, boat rides, and other things to be done outside of New York that tourist like to see in the Big Apple. But New York is New York, and if you put a casino in Manhattan, the tourist will most definitely go there. A casino in Times Square or anywhere else in central Manhattan would turn off many New Yorkers simply because of the flood of tourists. Of course, many would still come.

[NYguy]

One of the buildings to come down, that along with the huge parking garage, will form at least a part of the plaza (most of it being the garage site).



https://untappedcities.com/2021/01/25/penn-station-abandoned-power-plant/

Photos Inside the Abandoned Penn Station Power Plant





by Nicole Saraniero
1/25/2021

When the original McKim, Mead and White designed Penn Station was demolished in 1963, not all of it was lost. There are many remnants from the 1910 building within the station itself and there is an entire building from the original complex still standing on 31st Street. This structure is what Untapped New York’s Chief Experience Officer Justin Rivers calls Penn Station’s largest remnant, and you can see it on his Remnants of Penn Station Walking Tour!

The granite building at 242 West 31st Street, facing the south side of Madison Square Garden, once served as Penn Station’s coal-fueled power plant. This structure provided a variety of vital services to the station over the years. The photos in the gallery above, shared to a Penn Station Facebook group, provide a glimpse inside the now-defunct power plant which has been largely abandoned for decades.

The photos in the gallery above were taken in 1998 and in 2018. They reveal various corridors and rooms throughout the building filled with filing cabinets, electronics, and a giant control board showing Penn Station’s tracks and connecting subway lines. Many parts of the building are unsafe to visit due to asbestos and other containments that have resulted from years of decay.

The Penn Station power plant was constructed before the station itself. Penn Station opened in 1910 but the service building was complete by 1908. Designed by Charles McKim and William Symmes Richardson, the building features a granite facade quarried from Stony Creek Quarry in Connecticut according to Christopher Gray. A row of Doric pilasters give it a classical style, though much more subdued than the neighboring station. Two smokestacks once rose from the top of the building, but those no longer exist.

[NYguy]

I've been thinking about this project, and how it would reshape the area with major skyscrapers, and connections to the train station. But what I haven't seen is what plans are in store for the excavated earth.
We know in New York such large excavations sometimes lead to the creation of new land. Half of the financial district is built on landfill. But I haven't seen anything about that here.

It will be a block and a half's worth of excavation. With the WTC, which was larger, we got Battery Park City. Maybe they will go with that east river plan. Something to watch out for.



• Video Link



https://www.american-rails.com/pnstn.html

The big dig is underway as excavation work continues on Pennsylvania Station in Manhattan circa 1908. Photo by the Detroit Publishing Company.






https://www.gettyimages.dk/detail/news-p...n-w-31st-street-new-news-photo/486630601

Excavation for Pennsylvania Station (Penn Station) on W 31st Street, New York, New York, 1895. (Photo by Geo. P. Hall & Son/The New York Historical Society/Getty Images)







https://twitter.com/nyc_urbanism/status/783376191306760195

Pennsylvania Station excavation and construction, 1908.






https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article...tory-building-original-Penn-Station.html

Penn Station's construction site at West 31st Street










https://www.reddit.com/r/nyc/comments/22xmi2/what_manhattan_looked_like_during_the/






https://wp.trevor.org/wordpress/evolutionofnyc/penn-station/

[Visionist]

1895. To think the Draft Riots were only 32 years before.

I'm fascinated by the Civil War era New York. Ever since seeing Scorsese's film - full of poetic license as it is - I've wanted to know just how much of it survives to this day, not just in the urban fabric but in cultural institutions and even things like the "old New York' accent DDL was using.

As for more landfill, I wonder if downtown will ever be joined with Governor's Island in our lifetimes. It sounds outrageous but so did a hundred other projects that people take for granted today.

[NYguy]

Originally Posted by Visionist

As for more landfill, I wonder if downtown will ever be joined with Governor's Island in our lifetimes. It sounds outrageous but so did a hundred other projects that people take for granted today.

Yeah, it's a low rise New York, but still identifiable as New York. That scale of demo was still very noticeable in Manhattan. We don't typically see demo that large in the middle of the city, so it will be a site to see.


I doubt a connection to Governor's Island will ever happen. Nothing can happen there besides what's already being planned now. Any new creation of real estate will have financial implications, meaning major development. The most recent plans include once again adding on in the east river...but any plan would come from the state. I think any excavation may most likely go into the hudson.


https://slate.com/business/2019/03/why-new-york-is-expanding-into-the-east-river.html

By HENRY GRABAR
MARCH 15, 2019

On Thursday, New York’s mayor reiterated the city’s intent to preserve its core by reclaiming a slice of New York Harbor between the Brooklyn Bridge and the southern tip of Manhattan Island, planting as many as 20 new New York blocks into the silt to keep the rising Atlantic Ocean at arm’s length.

On the one hand, the East River extension is a gargantuan, once-in-a-lifetime endeavor that would transform New York City, at a cost the mayor pegged at $10 billion. On the other, it’s just the latest step in Manhattan’s long march into the harbor, which began with blocks of muddy “water lots” sold to enterprising colonists and culminated with the 1970s construction of Battery Park City on 92 acres of landfill.

.....In a subsequent study, consultants and city analysts determined that Seaport City was the best plan for New York in part because it would cost $3.6 billion—but generate $4.3 billion.

[NYC2ATX]

Originally Posted by NYguy

I doubt a connection to Governor's Island will ever happen. Nothing can happen there besides what's already being planned now. Any new creation of real estate will have financial implications, meaning major development. The most recent plans include once again adding on in the east river...but any plan would come from the state. I think any excavation may most likely go into the hudson.

I actually would sooner guess, based on proximity, that Governor's Island would sooner be joined to Brooklyn than to Manhattan, likely as part of a long term effort to insulate that borough and its downtown core from encroaching sea levels. It would serve as a natural extension of Brooklyn Bridge Park, and redevelopment along that portion of the Brooklyn waterfront in Red Hook would likely not be subject to as much scrutiny and backlash because of its current state, as moderately-used industrial/port facilities that would not be missed. Any remaining light industry on the Brooklyn waterfront is moving southward to Industry City anyway.

Sorry for going OT but I would welcome continuing this discussion in a more appropriate thread

[jbermingham123]

All these landfill plans are great and all, but all the money would be better spent on building an actual, high quality seawall.

For 100 billion dollars up front we could save 100% of the city, as well as most of the surrounding areas. Or, we could spend that same amount of money, if not more, over the next 50 years on a large number of smaller projects (which may include this land reclamation one or the gov island proposal), and save only 70% of the city. The time to make the choice is now

[Visionist]

The ideal world solution would be to abandon plans to turn JFK into a shopping mall and LGA's sunken costs and spend twelve figures building a landfill mega airport off of the lower bay instead, making that into the entire area's surge protection and linking Sandy Hook with Rockaway in the process. IATA would be NYC. Sell-off JFK and LGA to developers to help pay for it.

[Busy Bee]

In other words, the largest land reclamation project known to man?

I'm right there with you for having vision, but that seems a bit farfetched.

[jbermingham123]

Originally Posted by Visionist

The ideal world solution would be to abandon plans to turn JFK into a shopping mall and LGA's sunken costs and spend twelve figures building a landfill mega airport off of the lower bay instead, making that into the entire area's surge protection and linking Sandy Hook with Rockaway in the process. IATA would be NYC. Sell-off JFK and LGA to developers to help pay for it.

The seawall, (no matter whether its an airport or just a wall), is going to need to be buildable higher and higher as the sea levels rise. So unless you want to keep raising the whole airport, you'll inevitably still end up building a giant wall anyway, but it will have to be longer since it now also has to surround an airport. I do like the idea of redeveloping LGA and JFK though

[NYguy]

Originally Posted by NYC2ATX

I actually would sooner guess, based on proximity, that Governor's Island would sooner be joined to Brooklyn than to Manhattan, likely as part of a long term effort to insulate that borough and its downtown core from encroaching sea levels.

That area of Brooklyn is actually on a bluff, overlooking the east river/harbor. Landfill from Governor's Island won't do anything to affect that, and it would serve no real purpose. You would sooner see than landfill between the piers that make up Brooklyn Bridge Park. The Hudson River Park already has plenty of park and recreational space. But there are areas in midtown along the east river that could benefit from some landfill to create recreational space there. Or maybe they would just go back to the original plan of expanding Battery Park City. Real estate is king, and if they can use this opportunity to draw up more funding for the state, I could see them doing something like that.

[mrnyc]

Originally Posted by NYguy

Ant the tourists would still go in. Anything in Manhattan would be a draw for tourists, simply because it's New York. There are parks, skyscrapers, boat rides, and other things to be done outside of New York that tourist like to see in the Big Apple. But New York is New York, and if you put a casino in Manhattan, the tourist will most definitely go there. A casino in Times Square or anywhere else in central Manhattan would turn off many New Yorkers simply because of the flood of tourists. Of course, many would still come.

yeah and i am sure gamblers would make their way to a slew of hick moored riverboat casinos if we had them.
the point being, it is played out and and once the barn door was opened here it could easily get over built.

i am ok with with one super grand monte carlo-ish casino for the city in midtown though.
it would be cool to have a big competition for designing something like that.
just one is highly unlikely unfortunately.

[chris08876]

Originally Posted by mrnyc

yeah and i am sure gamblers would make their way to a slew of hick moored riverboat casinos if we had them.
the point being, it is played out and and once the barn door was opened here it could easily get over built.

i am ok with with one super grand monte carlo-ish casino for the city in midtown though.
it would be cool to have a big competition for designing something like that.
just one is highly unlikely unfortunately.

Not that the tourism industry wouldn't bounce back, but given the sector (toruism) is so dominant in NYC, a casino would be nice I feel to draw even more money into the region.

One for example near MSG/Penn would make a killing. Empire Station might even be a good location or nearby. Although IDK if the functionality would be a boon for plausible future tenants but nearby. Maybe on the West Side.

A tower casino would be neat. Either way, something to increase the tax base and aid the recovery and strengthen future tourism numbers once they return to the pre-2020 count.

[chris08876]

Originally Posted by NYguy

That area of Brooklyn is actually on a bluff, overlooking the east river/harbor. Landfill from Governor's Island won't do anything to affect that, and it would serve no real purpose. You would sooner see than landfill between the piers that make up Brooklyn Bridge Park. The Hudson River Park already has plenty of park and recreational space. But there are areas in midtown along the east river that could benefit from some landfill to create recreational space there. Or maybe they would just go back to the original plan of expanding Battery Park City. Real estate is king, and if they can use this opportunity to draw up more funding for the state, I could see them doing something like that.

Conversion of existing or creation of additional piers would be ideal. The Meat Packing district or example looks to get its own "beach" on a new pier. An expensive option, to essentially terraform or add land but a good way to add even more appeal to the island. Parks, beaches, casinos, and so on. I'm surprised they haven't added a Ferris wheel while they are at it, on a pier.

[mrnyc]

Originally Posted by chris08876

Not that the tourism industry wouldn't bounce back, but given the sector (toruism) is so dominant in NYC, a casino would be nice I feel to draw even more money into the region.

One for example near MSG/Penn would make a killing. Empire Station might even be a good location or nearby. Although IDK if the functionality would be a boon for plausible future tenants but nearby. Maybe on the West Side.

A tower casino would be neat. Either way, something to increase the tax base and aid the recovery and strengthen future tourism numbers once they return to the pre-2020 count.

absolutely. that would be how i would ideally picture it. one very grand casino in the base of a tower around there. then it would work for both tourists and locals as best it could.

[NYguy]

Originally Posted by chris08876

Conversion of existing or creation of additional piers would be ideal. The Meat Packing district or example looks to get its own "beach" on a new pier. An expensive option, to essentially terraform or add land but a good way to add even more appeal to the island. Parks, beaches, casinos, and so on. I'm surprised they haven't added a Ferris wheel while they are at it, on a pier.

I'm surprised it wasn't mentioned in conjunction with the planned park at pier 76. But I'm sure there are studies that would need to be done for landfill anywhere.

https://patch.com/new-york/midtown-nyc/nypd-vacates-hells-kitchen-tow-pound-opening-pier-76

[chris08876]

Probably some ESA's Phase I and II for any landfill. Although if polluted, any Phase III could drag on for years (long term to make sure contaminant levels are below the acceptable PPM). NY DEP can be a pain to deal with.

Would probally be better just to terraform/build in the river(s) versus the lag time of any study or the risk of it not being available IMO or cost to maintain a land cap. Or maybe just cap the contaminated land if applicable and install wells or monitoring locations. Reseal the cap every "X" years, which could get expensive depending on the extent of pollutant if present.

NYC tends to have PCB's (Polychlorinated biphenyl) as contaminants (thanks to the materials used in the Con-Edison manholes/switches). Begs the question of what occurred in some abandoned locations pre-1970.

[NYguy]

We don't want another Westway fiasco. So whatever they plan, it better be on point.

[chris08876]

Governor Cuomo Advances 20-Million-Square-Foot Empire Station Complex Redevelopment Plan, In Midtown, Manhattan

Yesterday, Governor Andrew Cuomo announced the board of directors of Empire State Development (ESD) had adopted the general project plan for the Empire Station Complex. The drafted plan, supported by a draft Environmental Impact Statement, would foster high-density redevelopment on eight sites surrounding the Penn Station transit hub. The plan is expected to create about 20 million square feet of mixed-use space including Class A commercial office, retail, hotel, and residential, and calls for five supertalls ranging from 1,018 to 1,300 feet in height, in addition to four other major skyscrapers. The area is bounded by Sixth and Ninth Avenues to the east and west, and by West 30th and West 34th Streets to the south and north in Midtown, Manhattan. Moynihan Station, the first step in the revitalization, opened at the end of 2020.

“New York has repeatedly proven that government can still successfully deliver transformational infrastructure projects that are not only on-time and on-budget, but withstand the test of time,” Governor Cuomo said. “The Moynihan Train Hall’s successful completion was a milestone, but it’s only the first step in a neighborhood-wide revitalization. The Empire Station Complex project represents the next great investment in our efforts to rebuild and expand this crucial piece of our state’s infrastructure and will support economic growth in New York City and across the entire state.”

The plan would also bring forth various public transportation improvements, including new entrances to Penn Station and nearby public transit, and public space improvements to address open space and traffic circulation for pedestrians, bicyclists, and vehicles. The buildings facilitated by the plan will generate revenue for those public transit improvements in the project area.

Three of the eight proposed sites would accommodate an expansion of Penn Station south of the existing structure, which would allow for up to nine additional tracks and five new platforms, stairways, and station entrances, given the above-grade mixed-use developments accommodate that expansion. A Penn Station expansion is part of a separate planning and federal environmental review process, involving the Metropolitan Transit Authority, Amtrak, and the New Jersey Transit Authority.

Next steps for the plan consist of a virtual public hearing on the draft Environmental Impact Statement and General Project Plan on Tuesday, March 23, 2021 from 5:00PM to 8:00PM, followed by a 30-day public comment period. The Empire State Complex project is expected to be completed by 2038.

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NYY