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  #6301  
Old Posted Feb 8, 2021, 2:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
One of the regular panelists Harold Fortin is black but I guess he was not there that day and another even more regular fixture Régine Laurent left a couple of months ago.
Odd.

I'm glad you brought up Mme. Laurent because she has a quote that's relevant to LCN's all-white panel on racial profiling. In 2018, when Quebec tennis player Francoise Abanda went to Twitter to complain that she would never get the same media treatment as Eugenie Bouchard in Quebec because she's black, Mme. Laurent provided this quote:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Regine Laurent
«Quand une femme noire dit ça, il faut l’entendre»
--
"When a black woman says that, you have to hear it"
https://www.tvanouvelles.ca/2018/05/16/q...it-ca-il-faut-lentendre---regine-laurent

Perhaps the inclusion of a PoC on LCN's panel on racial profiling would have provided more nuance to the discussion, and it's unfortunate that Mme. Laurent was not there to provide it.

This segues nicely into the next part of this post.

Hybrid posted a few days ago over on the CANZUK thread and, under normal circumstances, if someone even so much as thinks about Quebec on SSP the Quebec users are on it pretty quickly to provide their perspective of things on the ground.

Which is why I thought their post, which received no replies or comments from our Quebec users (or anyone else for that matter), was worth bringing here:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hybrid247 View Post
...

Quebec is one of the most left-leaning provinces in the country, generally speaking, and yet my family and I - who are of north african descent - experienced much more racism there than anywhere else in Canada that we've been to. Even the difference between Ottawa and Gatineau (where I live) is staggering. Most of my family, who are majority french-speakers, refuse to live in Quebec now because of this.

Not trying to bash Quebec or its people. I love Quebec for a lot of things and there's a lot of good people there, but ask any minority about their experiences there and I guarantee you'll hear a similar story.
Perhaps their post was simply missed, but this is the better thread for it anyway. This forum sorely lacks PoC views, so in the spirit of Laurent's quote it is now here, and I think it's certainly relevant to the tweet regarding LCN.
     
     
  #6302  
Old Posted Feb 8, 2021, 2:09 AM
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Originally Posted by JHikka View Post
This forum sorely lacks PoC views, so i'll bring it here for posterity.
On what basis do you draw that conclusion? And for that matter, what is an acceptable level of PoC views?
     
     
  #6303  
Old Posted Feb 8, 2021, 2:15 AM
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On what basis do you draw that conclusion?
Based on various threads from the past decade+ on this forum as well as meetup photos people posted over the years. I could have sworn we had a thread years ago where people gave demographic info as well but I could be making that up (similar to how we had a thread where a lot of our LGBTQ+ members came forward to express their experiences in Canada). In a lot of threads people are bringing up their heritage or background so over time it mostly just settles in.

Personally speaking, all of the members on this forum i've met have been white (as am I).

Quote:
Originally Posted by esquire View Post
And for that matter, what is an acceptable level of PoC views?
Literally any.
     
     
  #6304  
Old Posted Feb 8, 2021, 2:20 AM
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Originally Posted by esquire View Post
On what basis do you draw that conclusion? And for that matter, what is an acceptable level of PoC views?
Every gender, caste, —, race, class, —, religion (not including Christianity or Judaism) must be equally represented (or ideally over-represented) in the media or the Earth will stop spinning on its axis...
     
     
  #6305  
Old Posted Feb 8, 2021, 2:22 AM
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Originally Posted by JHikka View Post
I don't think anyone is proposing that only PoCs can have an opinion on this subject but not including any at all on a panel devoted to a subject that primarily affects them speaks volumes and is highly negligent.
That's ridiculous. Obsessing about the race of the people on the panel is what they did back in the 19th century. We've moved beyond that a long time ago.
     
     
  #6306  
Old Posted Feb 8, 2021, 2:26 AM
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There are people here who have indicated they are POC, so we aren't talking about a total absence of POC here.

But in my view, while I can understand why representation matters in the political or institutional context where decisions are made that affect people, I don't think it matters much if at all in a discussion forum where self-selecting people gather to engage in what amounts to pub talk, post photos and comment on them, etc. We don't make any decisions around here.
     
     
  #6307  
Old Posted Feb 8, 2021, 2:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by esquire View Post
There are people here who have indicated they are POC, so we aren't talking about a total absence of POC here.

But in my view, while I can understand why representation matters in the political or institutional context where decisions are made that affect people, I don't think it matters much if at all in a discussion forum where self-selecting people gather to engage in what amounts to pub talk, post photos and comment on them, etc. We don't make any decisions around here.
Some people have identified as POCs or as having other characteristics on here but I admit to having no idea for many if not most of them.

In some cases it can be interesting for people to share anecdotes and experiences related to various characteristics they have, but for most stuff it's not really necessary for us to know.

I certainly don't think about it or dwell on it.

Seems quite backward to do so, really.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JHikka View Post

This segues nicely into the next part of this post.

Hybrid posted a few days ago over on the CANZUK thread and, under normal circumstances, if someone even so much as thinks about Quebec on SSP the Quebec users are on it pretty quickly to provide their perspective of things on the ground.

Which is why I thought their post, which received no replies or comments from our Quebec users (or anyone else for that matter), was worth bringing here:

.
I read it and thought about replying a few times, and decided not to.

I couldn't decide if it was a drive-by slag or something else.

The classic yarn goes: "Quebec is so bad or so racist that even francophonie immigrants can't stand to live there and are leaving in droves".

Another of the "ROC Cocktail Party Circuit's Greatest Hits", of course.

Quebec still has Canada's largest North African population by far, most seem quite contented here and statistically they stay put here more than almost any other immigrant groups.

There are immigrants who move from Ontario to Quebec and who say that they like Quebec better. I know a bunch. It doesn't merit a story on The National and it doesn't mean Ontario is a hopelessly flawed society.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JHikka View Post
Odd.

I'm glad you brought up Mme. Laurent because she has a quote that's relevant to LCN's all-white panel on racial profiling. In 2018, when Quebec tennis player Francoise Abanda went to Twitter to complain that she would never get the same media treatment as Eugenie Bouchard in Quebec because she's black, Mme. Laurent provided this quote:


https://www.tvanouvelles.ca/2018/05/16/q...it-ca-il-faut-lentendre---regine-laurent

Perhaps the inclusion of a PoC on LCN's panel on racial profiling would have provided more nuance to the discussion, and it's unfortunate that Mme. Laurent was not there to provide it.
.
Actually, Françoise Abanda's complaints were about Tennis Canada who left her out of a video featuring Canada's best players and in her opinion didn't do much to promote her even when she may have been doing better than Eugenie Bouchard. It wasn't really about anything specific to Quebec or its media.

Regarding what Régine Laurent said, she's absolutely right and obviously no one is suggesting that a black woman like Françoise Abanda should not be able to be heard.

The broader issue though is whether only black people (or perhaps POC or BIPOC) should be able to comment on racial issues.

Last edited by JHikka; Feb 8, 2021 at 3:22 AM. Reason: triple post
     
     
  #6308  
Old Posted Feb 8, 2021, 2:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
The broader issue though is whether only black people (or perhaps POC or BIPOC) should be able to comment on racial issues.
You're affixing a viewpoint to this that I don't think anyone is actually pushing. The issue isn't that LCN had white people talking about race issues, it's that they only had white people talking about race issues. It's not as if there aren't PoC commentators in QC (two of whom you mentioned) available to speak on the issue.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
Actually, Françoise Abanda's complaints were about Tennis Canada who left her out of a video featuring Canada's best players and in her opinion didn't do much to promote her even when she may have been doing better than Eugenie Bouchard. It wasn't really about anything specific to Quebec or its media.
She's still mentioned these issues previously:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Francoise Abanda
"I think the problem is a racial problem, and I think that there is some inferiority and superiority going on, and I think that speaking from my personal experience, I have lived with racism in tennis growing up and playing in Quebec, and I'm just speaking the truth and what I've experienced," she said.

She said she's witnessed "hundreds and hundreds" of discriminatory acts throughout her career, and recalled, as an example, an opponent at an under-12 tournament who told her to "go back to your country."
https://www.cbc.ca/sports/tennis/canadia...-blames-racism-for-low-profile-1.4666176
     
     
  #6309  
Old Posted Feb 8, 2021, 3:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JHikka View Post
You're affixing a viewpoint to this that I don't think anyone is actually pushing. The issue isn't that LCN had white people talking about race issues, it's that they only had white people talking about race issues. It's not as if there aren't PoC commentators in QC (two of whom you mentioned) available to speak on the issue.

I have read and heard many POCs talking about the case with Mr. Camara, just not on this panel I guess.

But I don't keep a scoresheet. That would actually be weird.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JHikka View Post
That article still says that her specific gripe is with Tennis Canada.

I have never suggested that she's never referred to racism in Quebec as well.

Is this the discussion we're having: that Quebec isn't perfect, either? Then there won't be any argument from me.

But her main gripe is that Tennis Canada, an organization not primarily populated by Quebecers, was giving her second billing because she's black.

This doesn't support the insinuations that "it's mostly just Quebec".

For the record I was always more partial to Françoise over Eugenie.

I tend to prefer underdogs in general plus she comes across as more authentic and less fake.

Last edited by JHikka; Feb 8, 2021 at 3:22 AM. Reason: triple post
     
     
  #6310  
Old Posted Feb 8, 2021, 3:26 AM
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A bit surprising but Hamilton has the highest hate crime stats in Canada, at 15.7 per 100,000.

They are followed by Vancouver (8,2), Toronto (7,1), Montréal (5,4) and Calgary (5,2).

https://ici.radio-canada.ca/nouvelle/1768104/racisme-haine-crimes-hamilton-statistique-canada
     
     
  #6311  
Old Posted Feb 8, 2021, 5:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
Yeah I saw that on other channels too talking about "all-white panel discussing racial profiling WTF".

Honestly the idea that there is an issue involving a black person and that it should only be discussed by black people makes me wanna barf.

In a province that's 87% white it's not abnormal that a panel with four people is gonna have four white people on it.

Also, striking a panel of black people just to discuss a racial issue actually smacks of tokenism to me.

In an enlightened society, it should be perfectly normal for white people to discuss this topic, and for a a panel of black people to discuss any topic as well, from Québécois culture, to classical music, to science to hockey.
I think there's an issue of credibility with that narrative.

People shouldn't be talking about that issue unless they have a relative degree of exposure to the topic.

Not that specifically race matters.

A rich black kid doesn't have much the say about the topic. But at the same time you'd think the majority of people who are exploring the topic are affected by the topic.

You'll see that same effect when it comes to french Canadians, Newfies etc.

Someone who doesn't live it doesn't necessarily have an expertise on the topic, and may be more likely latching on for political gain.
     
     
  #6312  
Old Posted Feb 8, 2021, 5:36 PM
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Originally Posted by LakeLocker View Post
I think there's an issue of credibility with that narrative.

People shouldn't be talking about that issue unless they have a relative degree of exposure to the topic.

Not that specifically race matters.

A rich black kid doesn't have much the say about the topic. But at the same time you'd think the majority of people who are exploring the topic are affected by the topic.

You'll see that same effect when it comes to french Canadians, Newfies etc.

Someone who doesn't live it doesn't necessarily have an expertise on the topic, and may be more likely latching on for political gain.
But this is just a "resident panel" that comments on issues of the day. Five minutes before they were probably talking about the pandemic and vaccines and five minutes later they may have been talking about the REM project, or something Biden did, or Putin and Navalny.

As I said, it's similar to the At Issue panel on The National (CBC).

These guests have not been specifically brought together to discuss the issue of racial profiling by the police. Which all networks in Quebec, including this one, actually also did in the past week or so.

So what the critics of this panel are moving us towards is a world where one can't provide an opinion on certain topics on a news channel panel (or by extension, anywhere else I suppose) unless you're a card-carrying member of the specific in-group involved.

Is that really what we want?
     
     
  #6313  
Old Posted Feb 8, 2021, 5:54 PM
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But this is just a "resident panel" that comments on issues of the day. Five minutes before they were probably talking about the pandemic and vaccines and five minutes later they may have been talking about the REM project, or something Biden did, or Putin and Navalny.

As I said, it's similar to the At Issue panel on The National (CBC).

These guests have not been specifically brought together to discuss the issue of racial profiling by the police. Which all networks in Quebec, including this one, actually also did in the past week or so.

So what the critics of this panel are moving us towards is a world where one can't provide an opinion on certain topics on a news channel panel (or by extension, anywhere else I suppose) unless you're a card-carrying member of the specific in-group involved.

Is that really what we want?
I'd radically prefer a world where people stopped talking about it altogether to be honest.

Rarely does it offer anything useful.

EDIT: I accpet that we all get baited into racial topics, thanks to our interest in cultural geography and demography. However it's the 2020s leave that — in the 2010s.

If you want to talk about bias etc by police go right ahead. I'm all for offering better funding and training for cops.

Mind you the single biggest obstacle to police reform are the unions.

I dispise corruption. But the people who attack police are usually the most corrupt people going.

I'd probably be a left wing person if I thought they were gonna be less populist and less corrupt but I'm not immortal.

It's funny because people that are most additament that race don't matter seem to focus on it a whole lot.

When the allegedly "most racist" steer clear of the topic, you know its time to move on.

Ironically the bigger source of inequality is cognitive. Not just in IQ but neurological wiring/mental health.

But the most woke are far more likely to attack someone from being neurologically different. They belittle anyone they see as less intelligent, make novelty seeking a moral virtue, attack people for being more conformist/egalitarian, than treat anyone prone to emotional outbursts as racist/predators etc.

They have no interest in working with people based on how they are and turn everything into a social engineering exercise.

I use to be a bit interested in the neurodiversity movement. But was turned off when one of my "allies" started trying to claim that white autistic men didn't face discrimination. Followed by a claim that I couldn't watch Dune because it was homophobic.

The kicker for me was the Christian Bale Meltdown. Guy obviously has mental issues, and the same people rambling about mental health just offloaded.

I'm not saying you can't — talk a person for being cognitively weaker. But acknowledge it for what it is.

It's a far bigger crime than racism in my opinion, for the simple fact it's based on something that is actually a real difference between peoples.

It's amazing how "non autistic" people cannot account for how radical the neurological differences are between people.

All people wish to do is social engineer the differences out of people.

I'm not gonna claim treating a homeless person like they are on par with a doctor is sustainable for a rational society. But call it for what it is.

We're wired to squeeze the neurologically weak out of the gene pool.

I judge people by their output not their inputs, I give zero value to good intentions and I don't care if someone is a sociopath etc, provided they aren't in a situation where they can harm people.

I worked in a manufacturing environment where there were multiple folk running around with antisocial personality disorder/conduct disorder/addictions etc. They were routinely the hardest workers, and we're also the ones to propagate a certain kind of social code, that add a great deal of inter team solidarity. It was a shark tank without doubt, but it was an environment worth exploring.

Last edited by LakeLocker; Feb 8, 2021 at 6:11 PM.
     
     
  #6314  
Old Posted Feb 8, 2021, 6:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LakeLocker View Post
I'd radically prefer a world where people stopped talking about it altogether to be honest.

Rarely does it offer anything useful.

EDIT: I accpet that we all get baited into racial topics, thanks to our interest in cultural geography and demography. However it's the 2020s leave that — in the 2010s.

If you want to talk about bias etc by police go right ahead. I'm all for offering better funding and training for cops.

Mind you the single biggest obstacle to police reform are the unions.

I dispise corruption. But the people who attack police are usually the most corrupt people going.

I'd probably be a left wing person if I thought they were gonna be less populist and less corrupt but I'm not immortal.

It's funny because people that are most additament that race don't matter seem to focus on it a whole lot.

When the allegedly "most racist" steer clear of the topic, you know its time to move on.

Ironically the bigger source of inequality is cognitive. Not just in IQ but neurological wiring/mental health.

But the most woke are far more likely to attack someone from being neurologically different. They belittle anyone they see as less intelligent, make novelty seeking a moral virtue, attack people for being more conformist/egalitarian, than treat anyone prone to emotional outbursts as racist/predators etc.

They have no interest in working with people based on how they are and turn everything into a social engineering exercise.

I use to be a bit interested in the neurodiversity movement. But was turned off when one of my "allies" started trying to claim that white autistic men didn't face discrimination. Followed by a claim that I couldn't watch Dune because it was homophobic.

The kicker for me was the Christian Bale Meltdown. Guy obviously has mental issues, and the same people rambling about mental health just offloaded.

I'm not saying you can't — talk a person for being cognitively weaker. But acknowledge it for what it is.

It's a far bigger crime than racism in my opinion, for the simple fact it's based on something that is actually a real difference between peoples.

It's amazing how "non autistic" people cannot account for how radical the neurological differences are between people.

All people wish to do is social engineer the differences out of people.

I'm not gonna claim treating a homeless person like they are on par with a doctor is sustainable for a rational society. But call it for what it is.

We're wired to squeeze the neurologically weak out of the gene pool.

I judge people by their output not their inputs, I give zero value to good intentions and I don't care if someone is a sociopath etc, provided they aren't in a situation where they can harm people.

I worked in a manufacturing environment where there were multiple folk running around with antisocial personality disorder/conduct disorder/addictions etc. They were routinely the hardest workers, and we're also the ones to propagate a certain kind of social code, that add a great deal of inter team solidarity. It was a shark tank without doubt, but it was an environment worth exploring.
Interesting and colourful as usual but it doesn't address my points.

The recurring At Issue panel of CBC's The National doesn't ever have indigenous members as far as I can see.

The usual members are Chantal Hébert, Andrew Coyne and Althia Raj.

Should they be allowed to comment on indigenous issues that might come up in the news of the day?

My answer is a definite yes, but others may disagree I suppose.
     
     
  #6315  
Old Posted Feb 8, 2021, 8:03 PM
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Interesting and colourful as usual but it doesn't address my points.

The recurring At Issue panel of CBC's The National doesn't ever have indigenous members as far as I can see.

The usual members are Chantal Hébert, Andrew Coyne and Althia Raj.

Should they be allowed to comment on indigenous issues that might come up in the news of the day?

My answer is a definite yes, but others may disagree I suppose.
I guess the point I was trying to make was whether or not the discussion has a merit or is it just trying to create a story out of thin air. I wouldn't ban crappy journalism, but I will tune it out.

It reminds me of the CBC in newfoundland.

They try so hard to pretend they are covering the events in the rural fringes of the province. But more often than not it is "see we talk about rural, look a little girl playing a piano in corner brook".

You see the same things when news talks about thing more for agenda/hype/trendiness than actually presented something that fits the definition of "new".
     
     
  #6316  
Old Posted Feb 8, 2021, 11:58 PM
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"So, all is well as long as we win, the CH could play 20 Chinese and that would be perfect.

Note that if the KHL manages to convince the Chinese to take up hockey, we may end up with 20 Fang Wongs in 20 years."




https://www.journaldemontreal.com/2021/02/05/un-amour-a-sens-unique

John Lu rightly addressed this on twitter.
https://twitter.com/JohnLuTSNMtl/status/1358906604364713985

Eric Engels
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How shocking that a guy who once wrote that Bob Gainey and Pierre Gauthier were offering "the final solution" to the french question--he actually used those words--wrote this. If his editors let him publish that, of course they'd let him publish this. Disgrace. He's trash.
     
     
  #6317  
Old Posted Feb 9, 2021, 12:36 AM
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Originally Posted by JHikka View Post
"So, all is well as long as we win, the CH could play 20 Chinese and that would be perfect.

Note that if the KHL manages to convince the Chinese to take up hockey, we may end up with 20 Fang Wongs in 20 years."




https://www.journaldemontreal.com/2021/02/05/un-amour-a-sens-unique

John Lu rightly addressed this on twitter.
https://twitter.com/JohnLuTSNMtl/status/1358906604364713985

Eric Engels
@EricEngels
How shocking that a guy who once wrote that Bob Gainey and Pierre Gauthier were offering "the final solution" to the french question--he actually used those words--wrote this. If his editors let him publish that, of course they'd let him publish this. Disgrace. He's trash.
Yeah, Réjean Tremblay is a past-his-prime dinosaur. He was the author of the TV series He Shoots, He Scores, that some might remember.

I thought this was the best comment. From a former Montrealer who now lives in Texas:
I’m a proud Asian that speaks both French and English and loves everything about La Belle Province. Mais d’être insulté par ce genre de clown est vraiment insupportable. Hey Réjean, sors ton VHS de Lance et Compte de ton c*l.
@JohnLuTSNMtl I’m your wingman on and off the ice


Tremblay is a less bombastic, poor man's Don Cherry.

But at least there is the consolation that he wasn't being paid by our taxes for decades!
     
     
  #6318  
Old Posted Feb 9, 2021, 1:33 AM
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I don't find anything wrong with that comment, personally. The Chinese would be the default ethnicity one would use nowadays whenever referring to outsourcing/"farming out" to cheaper mass labor.

I'm reminded of a uni prof in my hometown and alma mater who was recently "accused" (tongue in cheek) of bulk-"buying" Chinese postdoc students on eBay; there was actually some truth to that statement
     
     
  #6319  
Old Posted Feb 9, 2021, 1:53 AM
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It's arguably more tasteless than racist.

Note he's actually saying that neither he nor the fans care about the ethnicity of the players, just as long as the team wins.
     
     
  #6320  
Old Posted Feb 9, 2021, 2:58 AM
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"Je le sais que c’est important d’écrire 400 chroniques sur “les wokes à l’université” mais ça serait le fun qu’on se parle de Réjean Tremblay et d’autres chroniqueurs qui semblent jamais faire face à des conséquences pour leur racisme.
...
C’est vraiment bizarre qu’on soit capable de mobiliser tellement de rage pour certains enjeux au Québec mais quand on se moque gratuitement des asiatiques dans le journal le plus lu dans la province, c’est le silence total."


///

"I know it is important to write 400 columns on “wokes at university” but it would be fun to talk about Réjean Tremblay and other columnists who never seem to face consequences for their racism.
...
It's really weird that we are able to mobilize so much rage for certain issues in Quebec, but when we make fun of Asians for free in the most widely read newspaper in the province, it's total silence."


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https://twitter.com/titocurtis/status/1358892163866755074
     
     
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