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View Poll Results: Would you support an EU-like merger between UK, Canada, Australia and New Zealand?
Yes 108 53.73%
No 76 37.81%
Don't know 17 8.46%
Voters: 201. You may not vote on this poll

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  #581  
Old Posted Feb 7, 2021, 4:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Hybrid247 View Post
This is my biggest concern, and it's a big reason why I would only support this as a bloc and not a federation like the EU. As long as Canada maintains full sovereignty, there is no threat to Quebec's share of political capital. However, I'm aware this still may not appease concerns.

On the other hand, I increasingly feel it's only a matter of time before Quebec goes down the separatist road again. It seems Quebec wants nothing to do with Canada beyond accessing the practical benefits it can provide. It's seemingly never about what can Quebec do for Canada, but what can Canada do for Quebec.
.
This is a rather simplistic statement in an otherwise thoughtful post.

The Quebec-Canada relationship is a lot more complex than "these guys just wanna take-take-take all the time".

With all due respect, that's high school debating level.

More to the point, as I have said I don't think Quebec would consider CANZUK to be much of a threat, but politically they might still ask "what about us?".

I think there is plenty of room to manoeuvre to buy peace with them and get them to play along, if ever Ottawa thinks CANZUK is something they really want.
     
     
  #582  
Old Posted Feb 7, 2021, 5:05 AM
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MonctonRad MonctonRad is online now
 
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Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
More to the point, as I have said I don't think Quebec would consider CANZUK to be much of a threat, but politically they might still ask "what about us?".
I believe there was a poll a number of months back showing widespread support for CANZUK in all parts of the federation, including Quebec. The level of support in Quebec was less than elsewhere in the country, but still somewhere in the neighbourhood of 60%

As long as Canadian sovereignty is not affected by CANZUK, I don't think the Quebecois would object too strenuously.

FWIW, I would not be adverse to a similar arrangement with France, Belgium, Luxembourg and Switzerland, but I think the EU would prevent this from happening. I know Switzerland is not part of the EU, but the Swiss tend to shun any international alliances.

EDIT - found it.

Here is the question

"Before 1970, citizens of Canada, Australia, New Zealand and the United Kingdom exercised reciprocal freedom of movement with each other, providing rights for citizens to live and work indefinitely in these countries without the requirement of time-limited visas or work permits."

Providing strict health, character and security requirements were implemented, would you support or oppose the reintroduction of such living and working rights for citizens of Canada, Australia, New Zealand and the United Kingdom?”


And the results (from Quebec):

"The poll surveyed 2,533 participants via independent online polling methods, with over 63% supporting the reintroduction of free movement between the CANZUK countries and only 21% opposing."

https://www.canzukinternational.com/2018/03/poll-quebec.html
     
     
  #583  
Old Posted Feb 7, 2021, 5:10 AM
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Originally Posted by MonctonRad View Post
I believe there was a poll a number of months back showing widespread support for CANZUK in all parts of the federation, including Quebec. The level of support in Quebec was less than elsewhere in the country, but still somewhere in the neighbourhood of 60%

As long as Canadian sovereignty is not affected by CANZUK, I don't think the Quebecois would object too strenuously.

FWIW, I would not be adverse to a similar arrangement with France, Belgium, Luxembourg and Switzerland, but I think the EU would prevent this from happening. I know Switzerland is not part of the EU, but the Swiss tend to shun any international alliances.
Yes, it is (somewhat, I guess) unfortunate that there probably aren't any realistic opportunities for a francophone CANZUK. (If indeed Canada does down the CANZUK route.) C'est la vie.
     
     
  #584  
Old Posted Feb 7, 2021, 5:34 AM
acottawa acottawa is offline
 
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Originally Posted by casper View Post

The question, is Does Canada get much of anything out of NATO and does Canada make NATO stronger. The reality is we don't. If Canada left NATO today it would have zero impact on NATO or Russia.

The alliance most relevant to protecting Canadian territory is NORAD. That basically has Canada and the US.

What I am proposing is an alliance with the UK, Australia and NZ. You will notice that the country with the largest military in that alliance is focused on the North Atlantic.

What military alliances beyond the US do we have in the Pacific?
Canada is the main NATO force in Latvia.

NORAD has a fairly limited scope (air defence). The thing that protects Canadian territory more than anything is the Monroe Doctrine. Even when the US was neutral it made it clear it would not allow an invasion of Canada. Australia and NZ would be 100% useless in the event of a threat to Canada.
     
     
  #585  
Old Posted Feb 7, 2021, 5:45 AM
acottawa acottawa is offline
 
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Originally Posted by LakeLocker View Post
Well the real victims in all of this are those who don't have the blessed genetics.

Biological determinism is pretty much the biggest burden to hit our society.

Biology is far more unfair than any belief system, economic policy etc.

It's not a moral virtue to deny someone's suffering.

The lefts addiction to the blank slate theory is killing it, it's becoming far more outrageous bootstrapping arguments. Specifically because they have the science at hand which they promptly ignore.

Biology is 99 percent of our struggle in the modern age.

Be it cancer, mental health, poverty, etc.

The thing is I don't think we want it to be any other way.

In a generation embryo selection will make it very easy to select the best possible offspring for each and every generation of people.

From where I'm standing I'd rather be alive than aborted, having a really — seat at the big show that is existence is still pretty flipping awesome.
Genetics is partially determinative in a number of factors that affect life outcomes, but not nearly to the extent you’re making it out to be. There is A LOT of literature on the nature/nurture spectrum, and none show 99% nature. Socialization matters, deliberate practice matters, hard work matters, social skills matter (increasingly so).
     
     
  #586  
Old Posted Feb 7, 2021, 5:47 AM
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Originally Posted by acottawa View Post
The thing that protects Canadian territory more than anything is the Monroe Doctrine. Even when the US was neutral it made it clear it would not allow an invasion of Canada. Australia and NZ would be 100% useless in the event of a threat to Canada.
Unless of course, Canada is invaded by the United States.
     
     
  #587  
Old Posted Feb 7, 2021, 5:51 AM
lio45 lio45 is offline
 
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Whether Quebec is okay or not with it depends on the form it takes. If it's a "merger" as the thread title suggests, that would be a problem (significant dilution of political power for the Québécois vs the Anglos who'd be 90%+ of the population of the new union).

But a free trade deal? That's fine. NAFTA was a deal with an English-speaking superpower and it was no problem. There's a huge difference between making a win-win deal with a (much more powerful) neighbor, and relinquishing control of your destiny to that neighbor.

I can see I voted "no" in the poll three years ago, but I've warmed up to the idea now, for some reason.
     
     
  #588  
Old Posted Feb 7, 2021, 6:18 AM
Hybrid247 Hybrid247 is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
This is a rather simplistic statement in an otherwise thoughtful post.

The Quebec-Canada relationship is a lot more complex than "these guys just wanna take-take-take all the time".

With all due respect, that's high school debating level.
I wasn't trying to characterize the whole relationship as just take-take. What I was trying to say, rather poorly I suppose, is that I'm under the impression Quebec is mainly concerned with pursuing a higher level of independence as of late, and that it's only matter of time before we arrive back at a referendum situation. I feel like many quebecers just don't really care about Canada, and that Quebec would be independent already if it weren't for all the potential risks and drawbacks that come with seceding.

That's just my cynical impression, though. Not trying to present that as fact.
     
     
  #589  
Old Posted Feb 7, 2021, 6:23 AM
acottawa acottawa is offline
 
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Originally Posted by MonctonRad View Post
Unless of course, Canada is invaded by the United States.
Then there is no way to stop them. Certainly ANZUK would be useless.
     
     
  #590  
Old Posted Feb 7, 2021, 6:34 AM
LakeLocker LakeLocker is offline
 
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Originally Posted by niwell View Post
Ok so you are a sociopath. Good to know we’re on the same page.
So you want to put people on welfare, put them on boatloads of antidepressants/opiates/benzos, good work. You really want what's best for people, and all the statistics are proving your plan is working.
     
     
  #591  
Old Posted Feb 7, 2021, 6:41 AM
LakeLocker LakeLocker is offline
 
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Originally Posted by acottawa View Post
Genetics is partially determinative in a number of factors that affect life outcomes, but not nearly to the extent you’re making it out to be. There is A LOT of literature on the nature/nurture spectrum, and none show 99% nature. Socialization matters, deliberate practice matters, hard work matters, social skills matter (increasingly so).
I don't dispute this for a second. That doesn't solve the inequality issue. Some people will be ahead and some people will be behind.

I'm quite adamant we can keep people out of complete misery and despair, there's a real hope if we embrace the biological limitations. It's the scale of the issue that gets swept under the rug.

You can't make progress if its verboten to even talk about the subject.

If I thought the left was talking these issues head on I'd switch my voting patterns accordingly.

But they have real ideological barriers with the issue.

FYI I can fake pro social behavior quite easily, however I won't touch that behavior when I'm off the clock. I can't live a lie 24/7.
     
     
  #592  
Old Posted Feb 7, 2021, 6:41 AM
milomilo milomilo is offline
 
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Originally Posted by acottawa View Post
Then there is no way to stop them. Certainly ANZUK would be useless.
I agree with your sentiment. But at least the UK and France do have the credible capability to destroy the majority of the US population. Unless they can shoot the ICBms down, which I'm unsure if they can.
     
     
  #593  
Old Posted Feb 7, 2021, 6:45 AM
LakeLocker LakeLocker is offline
 
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I think it's bizarre when people suggest the idea of CANZUK being anything like the EU.

Austrailia wants a buffer against asia, Canada wants a buffer against America, and the Brits want a buffer against the EU.

I actually think one of the main benefits of it all would be the dispersal of the grouping. Too far apart for any one party to dominate the other.
     
     
  #594  
Old Posted Feb 7, 2021, 6:59 AM
acottawa acottawa is offline
 
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Originally Posted by milomilo View Post
I agree with your sentiment. But at least the UK and France do have the credible capability to destroy the majority of the US population. Unless they can shoot the ICBms down, which I'm unsure if they can.
Assuming the US Navy’s massive anti submarine capabilities can’t locate the 4 ballistic missile subs each country has, and that either country would prefer total destruction to occupation.
     
     
  #595  
Old Posted Feb 7, 2021, 8:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
This is more of a general comment than anything about you personally, but I am not sure the anti-CANZUK comments that evoke Quebec feeling left out are really that sincere.

I raised this months ago and I still think a lot of the discomfort about CANZUK is primarily because they're all white (sic) first world countries.

The Quebec "concern" is just a diversion.

And a big issue is Anglo-Canada's own culture cringe vis-à-vis its British roots, not because of Quebec's reaction, but more how that clashes with Anglo-Canada's modern world-in-one-nation view of itself.
I could cop to your conclusion and still raise the issue of separatism with complete sincerity. 60% support for a poorly-defined fantasy is not 60% support when Canada starts dumping diplomatic capital into the thing, never mind when the cards are on the table and we know what we've lost.

Separatist movements are touchy. The things that set them off can look like nothing at all. What was it that got the Catalonian upset, again? Why were the Basques blowing things up allover Spain? What got into the Scots in 2014? These are movements far older than Quebec's, and seem like they could or should have been settled long ago. Quebec separatism seems settled now, but it's still popular enough that if something gets the juices flowing, and if someone decides they can make political hay from the matter, it could turn into a huge problem again.

Call me crazy, but I don't want that.
     
     
  #596  
Old Posted Feb 7, 2021, 11:30 AM
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With that said, I'd actually agree that Quebec is a diversion. The real issue--and fatal flaw in CANZUK--is loss of immigration sovereignty.

I already posted this article about Nauru, but here it is again.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/a...u-australias-dumping-ground-for-refugees


here's another:

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-ne...hildren-in-australian-offshore-detention


For those of you too lazy to click a link, here are some highlights.

Quote:
In effect, people accused of no crime are warehoused in appalling conditions in arbitrary and indefinite detention. Dozens of countries, the United Nations, and rights groups including Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch, have documented and condemned the illegal detention.
Quote:
The first Nauru experiment began in 2001, after the Tampa crisis, when a Norwegian freighter that had rescued more than 400 mainly Afghan Hazara refugees from their sinking vessel in international waters 140km north of Christmas Island was refused entry into Australian waters, in defiance of international law. With boats carrying asylum seekers arriving consistently – as they have on and off since the mid-1970s – and with immigration proving a divisive, possibly critical issue in a federal election campaign, the MV Tampa provided the conservative Coalition government with a catalyst for action. That was the establishment of “offshore detention” camps on Nauru and on Papua New Guinea, the so-called Pacific solution.
Quote:
The first Nauru regime ran until 2007. The camp was bedevilled by problems: overcrowded tents and a shortage of water were the most pressing. Slowly it was established that, overwhelmingly, those who had come by boat were not “queue jumpers” or criminals or terrorists (a claim regularly made by ministers, despite being refuted by the government’s own national security chief) but rather people fleeing genuine persecution and who were owed protection. Most were resettled, and mostly in Australia. The Nauru detention regime ended in farce, with Australia at one point paying for the massive bureaucracy of an entire incarceration centre housing just two Iraqi men, both of whom were found to be refugees and were resettled.

‘I want death’: Nauru files chronicle despair of asylum seeker children
Read more
Nauru’s second iteration as an isle of detention, instituted by a Labor government and carried on with unswerving determination by the current Liberal-National Coalition government, began in 2012. Again, an increase in the number of boats arriving – this time allied to concern about deaths at sea (not a rationale cited in 2001) – sparked a return to the former policy. Nauru and Manus, both of which had been mothballed, and condemned by the then immigration minister, Chris Evans, as “a cynical, costly and ultimately unsuccessful exercise”, were redeveloped at a cost of billions of dollars.

The problems are undiminished. But the second Nauru detention regime has been kept carefully hidden. Foreign journalists – save for a handful of selected reporters – are forbidden entry to the island. A media visa is a theoretical possibility – at the inflated price of $8,000 an application – but requests from the Guardian and other independent media organisations, even for the visa application form, are met with stony silence.
Quote:
The reports range from a guard allegedly grabbing a boy and threatening to kill him once he is living in the community to guards allegedly slapping children in the face. In September 2014 a teacher reported that a young classroom helper had requested a four-minute shower instead of a two-minute shower. “Her request has been accepted on condition of — favours. It is a male security person. She did not state if this has or hasn’t occurred. The security officer wants to view a boy or girl having a shower.”

Some reports contain distressing examples of behaviour by traumatised children. According to a report from September 2014, a girl had sewn her lips together. A guard saw her and began laughing at her. In July that year a child under the age of 10 undressed and invited a group of adults to insert their fingers into her —; in February 2015 a young girl gestured to her — and said a male asylum seeker “cut her from under”.
If you want to make an Australian with a heart and a brain squirm, all you have to do is mention Nauru. But most Australians are as delightfully oblivious to everything--it's the source of their bluff charm--as most of the world are to Australia. If anyone paid attention, they'd be an international pariah.

Australia's illegal, human-rights-violating approach to refugee (non) settlement is obviously incompatible with Canada's, and ought to irritate every instinct we have about what it means for Canada to be a good and just country.

Being completely cynical, CANZUK could read as a play to sideload less humane immigration policies. I prefer to think its strident supporters aren't attempting an end run around our better instinct by appealing to freedom, and just haven't thought it through.
     
     
  #597  
Old Posted Feb 7, 2021, 11:48 AM
jamincan jamincan is offline
 
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Proponents of CANZUK seem naive in the same way Brexiters were.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Luisito View Post
How would Canada be surrending its immigration policy to Australians? Australians would have no say who we let in. They are also not the only country that would make up CANZUK.
While it's possible to have a free-movement agreement without some sort of constraint on immigration policy, it is extraordinarily that any country would agree to such an arrangement as it effectively makes the immigration policy of all members identical to the one with the most lax policy.
     
     
  #598  
Old Posted Feb 7, 2021, 1:22 PM
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Originally Posted by biguc View Post
With that said, I'd actually agree that Quebec is a diversion. The real issue--and fatal flaw in CANZUK--is loss of immigration sovereignty.

I already posted this article about Nauru, but here it is again.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/a...u-australias-dumping-ground-for-refugees


here's another:

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-ne...hildren-in-australian-offshore-detention


For those of you too lazy to click a link, here are some highlights.









If you want to make an Australian with a heart and a brain squirm, all you have to do is mention Nauru. But most Australians are as delightfully oblivious to everything--it's the source of their bluff charm--as most of the world are to Australia. If anyone paid attention, they'd be an international pariah.

Australia's illegal, human-rights-violating approach to refugee (non) settlement is obviously incompatible with Canada's, and ought to irritate every instinct we have about what it means for Canada to be a good and just country.

Being completely cynical, CANZUK could read as a play to sideload less humane immigration policies. I prefer to think its strident supporters aren't attempting an end run around our better instinct by appealing to freedom, and just haven't thought it through.
These are not immigration related but Canada has black marks as well. 10... 10! prison guards in St John's were charged in the murder of an Indigenous inmate. How can 10 people employed by the government (allegedly) conspire to kill someone???

What about MMIWG or Joyce Echequan?

I don't see how the actions of individuals acting within a system cog set up by a country should be held up as examples of that country being morally flawed overall.

An Aussie could hold up these examples or others to argue that they shouldn't enter CANZUK with those evil Canooks.
     
     
  #599  
Old Posted Feb 7, 2021, 1:32 PM
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Originally Posted by biguc View Post
I could cop to your conclusion and still raise the issue of separatism with complete sincerity. 60% support for a poorly-defined fantasy is not 60% support when Canada starts dumping diplomatic capital into the thing, never mind when the cards are on the table and we know what we've lost.

Separatist movements are touchy. The things that set them off can look like nothing at all. What was it that got the Catalonian upset, again? Why were the Basques blowing things up allover Spain? What got into the Scots in 2014? These are movements far older than Quebec's, and seem like they could or should have been settled long ago. Quebec separatism seems settled now, but it's still popular enough that if something gets the juices flowing, and if someone decides they can make political hay from the matter, it could turn into a huge problem again.

Call me crazy, but I don't want that.
Not sure if you missed all of my posts about this over the years but I regularly push back on the gleeful "Quebec separatism is dead and buried" posts that appear on here from time to time.

I witnessed the mid 80s so-called death of separatism in Quebec only to see it surge unexpectedly in the early 90s and almost carry the day in 1995.

I always say independence is as much about seizing a window of opportunity in history as it is about national destiny.

For fun you should Google François Legault and référendum gagnant and check out the videos from the past week or two.
     
     
  #600  
Old Posted Feb 7, 2021, 2:02 PM
Commentariat Commentariat is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by biguc View Post
With that said, I'd actually agree that Quebec is a diversion. The real issue--and fatal flaw in CANZUK--is loss of immigration sovereignty.

I already posted this article about Nauru, but here it is again.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/a...u-australias-dumping-ground-for-refugees


here's another:

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-ne...hildren-in-australian-offshore-detention


For those of you too lazy to click a link, here are some highlights.









If you want to make an Australian with a heart and a brain squirm, all you have to do is mention Nauru. But most Australians are as delightfully oblivious to everything--it's the source of their bluff charm--as most of the world are to Australia. If anyone paid attention, they'd be an international pariah.

Australia's illegal, human-rights-violating approach to refugee (non) settlement is obviously incompatible with Canada's, and ought to irritate every instinct we have about what it means for Canada to be a good and just country.

Being completely cynical, CANZUK could read as a play to sideload less humane immigration policies. I prefer to think its strident supporters aren't attempting an end run around our better instinct by appealing to freedom, and just haven't thought it through.
The Tampa rescue occurred in Indonesian waters and it was taking the asylum seekers to the nearest port in Indonesia until it was effectively hijacked and forced to sail to Christmas Island, which didn’t even have the capacity to dock a freighter.

The SIEV-X then sunk a month later with 353 people killed including 150 children.

This was when the ‘no advantage’ rules were introduced, so that there was no incentive for anyone to use Indonesian people smugglers. When the Rudd government removed them for a few years, another 1200 people drowned.

What would Canada have done differently?
     
     
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