CANZUK International - "merger" of UK, Canada, Australia and New Zealand

[Luisito]

YOU might not wanit it or see the benefits of it, but many Canadians do. The observation on here is that more people voted it for it. Some of the tangents on here are silly.

Originally Posted by milomilo

I think the observation that this thread consistently goes off on tangents is pretty good evidence there is nothing to this CANZUK thing. When it comes down to it, all it really is is some people thinking "it would be nice if it was easier to work in Australia".

Military - no, only the UK and maybe Australia has a credible force, and the UK is still puny compared to the US. We have NATO, if there's any issue with that then it's better to fix it than make new insignificant alliances. Besides, the military threat to each country is much different.

Trade - no. The trade between these nations is not the most important and is relatively free anyway. There is no need for a new multilateral trade deal, anything that needs to be done will be done through existing trade deals or bilateral talks.

What else is there?

There is no CANZUK and there will be no CANZUK.

[niwell]

Originally Posted by milomilo

I think the observation that this thread consistently goes off on tangents is pretty good evidence there is nothing to this CANZUK thing. When it comes down to it, all it really is is some people thinking "it would be nice if it was easier to work in Australia".

Yeah, pretty much nailed it I think.

[goodgrowth]

I don't really get the racial comments about CANZUK considering the EU exists and has existed for decades...

CANZUK would probably be more diverse in terms of race.

[Luisito]

Originally Posted by JHikka

You're right. It's about countries that all have a shared, uh, history, and, uh, language...

Yes which are all very important, wether you like to admit it or not. We also have a similar standards of living, similar parliamentary democracies and have a long history of working together. We also share the many of the same threats. Its better to work together with our close friends and allies. WHy not be more open to them?

Peronsally I wouldn't move to Australia. The plane trip is too long, but I see the benefits of younger Canadians having wider acces to more educational and employment oportunities.

[LakeLocker]

Originally Posted by casper

I think your trying to find a correlation using a sample size of one.

I for one am pro CANZUK and don't believe there is any correlation between IQ and skin colour

It's not a correlation between IQ and skin color.

It's a correlation between heritage and IQ.

White trash families living in Trump country are in the same situation as their black counterparts. There's also little chance that you'll meet a black person with a low IQ if you're in an environment where you won't see low IQ whites. Regardless of skin color the engineering department at most universities is quite high.



But there's no debate on the averages being different. This data has been collected for over a century, and it has been relatively consistent.

Black average SAT scores are on par with their expected average IQ scores. Most college admissions departments in almost every major university have a substantially lower bar set for blacks, and a substantially higher bar set for east asians. That's not some 4chan opinion, you can google harvard university in 10 seconds.

There's never been a debate on to if black averages are lower.

No more than there is a debate of whether or not africa is incredibly impoverished.

The question was always, why is it that way?

The people figuring out the heritability of IQ were not looking at the equation with a racial mindset.

They were scientist trying to understand the workings of the human brain.

As more money is injected into black neighborhoods you'd expect to see a continued improvement in SAT scores etc. It's lead many social scientists to conclude that there must be an invisible barrier stalling their progress.

This is where theories about subconscious racial bias etc came in. As we watch more and more immigrants come to America and succeed(including high IQ Nigerians) the narrative that subconscious bias explains the average iq discrepancies falls apart.

The thing you have to appreciate is that if you accept this truth you'll be in shock for at least a year.

And crazy enough you'll desperately plead for this unfortunate reality to not be the case.


But the truth is, even if you could fix the racial averages, you'd still have those white trash hicks in Trump country living in complete turmoil.

If you need a racial image to give a dam about poor people that's a problem.

[Luisito]

Originally Posted by goodgrowth

I don't really get the racial comments about CANZUK considering the EU exists and has existed for decades...

CANZUK would probably be more diverse in terms of race.

Exactly. Some of the same people calling CANZUK racist think the EU is cool, a bunch of white countries foriming a union. Such hypocrites. ANd you're right, CANZUK would be more diverse.

CANZUK wouldn't even be a union like the EU not even close.

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by Luisito

YOU might not wanit it or see the benefits of it, but many Canadians do. The observation on here is that more people voted it for it. Some of the tangents on here are silly.

I can't see benefits because there is no consistent definition of what it is. The poll says "an EU-like merger between UK, Canada, Australia and New Zealand" but that's not how many have described it in this thread and is preposterously unlikely and undesirable to begin with. I don't believe many who voted yes in that poll would actually support what was asked if pressed. Do you want "an EU-like merger between UK, Canada, Australia and New Zealand"?

[Luisito]

Originally Posted by milomilo

I can't see benefits because there is no consistent definition of what it is. The poll says "an EU-like merger between UK, Canada, Australia and New Zealand" but that's not how many have described it in this thread and is preposterously unlikely and undesirable to begin with. I don't believe many who voted yes in that poll would actually support what was asked if pressed. Do you want "an EU-like merger between UK, Canada, Australia and New Zealand"?

You are correct, the title of thread is a little misleading. What I think they meant EU like was the free movement aspect of it. WHich I am in favour of, but if we are talking a EU like union with a new government, new currency etc etc and depending on each other like they do in the EU than no, You are correct I wouldnt be in favour of that.

[LakeLocker]

Originally Posted by goodgrowth

I don't really get the racial comments about CANZUK considering the EU exists and has existed for decades...

CANZUK would probably be more diverse in terms of race.

I think the race thing came up because of the different attitudes towards race in the talked about countries.

As each country has a different set of problems on the racial issue.

Australians have never dealt with their past, Canada is too exposed to American racial issues, and Old World Britain doesn't have a playbook for how to integrate new ethnicities while keeping peace with the old ones, in a very crowded overpopulated part of the world.

The whole woke bit was in reference to a social movement that we can't make peace with.

Woke folk are mad for a reason and there is no solution that isn't unpleasant.

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by Luisito

You are correct, the title of thread is a little misleading. What I think they meant EU like was the free movement aspect of it. WHich I am in favour of, but if we are talking a EU like union with a new government, new currency etc etc and depending on each other like they do in the EU than no, You are correct I wouldnt be in favour of that.

Which backs up what I said - all there really is to CANZUK is some Canadians and Brits wanting it to be easier to move to Australia. Which I'm not opposed to but the moniker CANZUK implies much greater ambition.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by LakeLocker

I think the race thing came up because of the different attitudes towards race in the talked about countries.

As each country has a different set of problems on the racial issue.

Australians have never dealt with their past, Canada is too exposed to American racial issues, and Old World Britain doesn't have a playbook for how to integrate new ethnicities while keeping peace with the old ones, in a very crowded overpopulated part of the world.

The whole woke bit was in reference to a social movement that we can't make peace with.

Woke folk are mad for a reason and there is no solution that isn't unpleasant.

A fairly high percentage of woke people seem really really mad not for themselves but in someone else's name.

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by Acajack

A fairly high percentage of woke people seem really really mad not for themselves but in someone else's name.

This is truth.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by milomilo

I can't see benefits because there is no consistent definition of what it is. The poll says "an EU-like merger between UK, Canada, Australia and New Zealand" but that's not how many have described it in this thread and is preposterously unlikely and undesirable to begin with. I don't believe many who voted yes in that poll would actually support what was asked if pressed. Do you want "an EU-like merger between UK, Canada, Australia and New Zealand"?

I agree that the idea of CANZUK has never really been fully defined, but I think it's fair to say that most people don't want a full EU type merger and supranational government. This type of arrangement has it's own problems, and requires a subsuming of parliamentary independence that some nation states find troubling, hence why the UK left.

I would view it as more similar to the predecessor of the EU (the EEC) and will not have a central parliament of any form. National independence would not be threatened. The new working relationship of all the parties to the agreement will be governed by treaties. It will have many of the benefits of the EU, but without the liabilities - ie free trade, free movement, economic cooperation, cultural exchange and military coordination, but not a new supranational government, common currency, bloated bureaucracy and institutional paralysis.

[Luisito]

Originally Posted by milomilo

Which backs up what I said - all there really is to CANZUK is some Canadians and Brits wanting it to be easier to move to Australia. Which I'm not opposed to but the moniker CANZUK implies much greater ambition.

It does imply more than that, but it won't be like the European union.

[Luisito]

Originally Posted by Acajack

A fairly high percentage of woke people seem really really mad not for themselves but in someone else's name.

Mad in someones elses name that often doesn't give a — themselves.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Luisito

Mad in someones elses name that often doesn't give a — themselves.

Which led to the bizarre situation of antifa and woke protestors in the US calling black people "white supremacists" and women "misogynists", this past summer.

[casper]

Originally Posted by milomilo

I think the observation that this thread consistently goes off on tangents is pretty good evidence there is nothing to this CANZUK thing. When it comes down to it, all it really is is some people thinking "it would be nice if it was easier to work in Australia".

Military - no, only the UK and maybe Australia has a credible force, and the UK is still puny compared to the US. We have NATO, if there's any issue with that then it's better to fix it than make new insignificant alliances. Besides, the military threat to each country is much different.

Trade - no. The trade between these nations is not the most important and is relatively free anyway. There is no need for a new multilateral trade deal, anything that needs to be done will be done through existing trade deals or bilateral talks.

What else is there?

There is no CANZUK and there will be no CANZUK.

On the military front. We don't have NATO. The focus of NATO is to protect Europe from Russia. A noble cause but fairly low on the Canadian priority list. That is evident from where Canadian Forces have been deployed overseas over the past 20 years. With the exception of Yugoslavia and Ukraine the Canadian military has not had much of an active role there. We have been far more involved in the Middle East and Africa. We have even been involved in helping the Kurds defend themselves from others like Turkey (NATO)?

Free trade is good, but a system similar to NAFTA with more mobility provisions would be good.

As someone living in Vancouver, I should point out that Canada is a pacific rim nation. NATO is useless and has little interest in being involved in this part of the world.

[casper]

Originally Posted by LakeLocker

It's not a correlation between IQ and skin color.

It's a correlation between heritage and IQ.

White trash families living in Trump country are in the same situation as their black counterparts. There's also little chance that you'll meet a black person with a low IQ if you're in an environment where you won't see low IQ whites. Regardless of skin color the engineering department at most universities is quite high.



But there's no debate on the averages being different. This data has been collected for over a century, and it has been relatively consistent.

Black average SAT scores are on par with their expected average IQ scores. Most college admissions departments in almost every major university have a substantially lower bar set for blacks, and a substantially higher bar set for east asians. That's not some 4chan opinion, you can google harvard university in 10 seconds.

There's never been a debate on to if black averages are lower.

No more than there is a debate of whether or not africa is incredibly impoverished.

The question was always, why is it that way?

The people figuring out the heritability of IQ were not looking at the equation with a racial mindset.

They were scientist trying to understand the workings of the human brain.

As more money is injected into black neighborhoods you'd expect to see a continued improvement in SAT scores etc. It's lead many social scientists to conclude that there must be an invisible barrier stalling their progress.

This is where theories about subconscious racial bias etc came in. As we watch more and more immigrants come to America and succeed(including high IQ Nigerians) the narrative that subconscious bias explains the average iq discrepancies falls apart.

The thing you have to appreciate is that if you accept this truth you'll be in shock for at least a year.

And crazy enough you'll desperately plead for this unfortunate reality to not be the case.


But the truth is, even if you could fix the racial averages, you'd still have those white trash hicks in Trump country living in complete turmoil.

If you need a racial image to give a dam about poor people that's a problem.

I don't know about Ontario, but here in BC, SAT scores are irrelevant and most people have never done the test. That is not how universities or collages evaluate applicants. No one writes SAT tests out here. It has been a while, since I looked into it but I think we still have standardized testing for grade 11 and 12 graduates academic oriented courses. Out here the university or collage does not even know your skin colour or ethnic background.

Where do we use IQ or SAT in Canada? Do we use it any other CANZUK nation?

As for the US, they have and continue to have a problem with creating the same type of opportunities in poorer communities on the education front.

[LakeLocker]

Originally Posted by casper

I don't know about Ontario, but here in BC, SAT scores are irrelevant and most people have never done the test. That is not how universities or collages evaluate applicants. No one writes SAT tests out here.

Well for starters your ethnic population is suspected to have an IQ level a bit above average.

Second the point was that the SAT is reflective of general intelligence not that it is general intelligence.

Originally Posted by casper

It has been a while, since I looked into it but I think we still have standardized testing for grade 11 and 12 graduates academic oriented courses.

Not sure what your point is.

Immigrants are gonna have IQ's substantially higher than their relatives back home. The race IQ thinger in most immigrant populations is a non issue.

It's the beauty of having a point system and not a lottery/open door policy.

Your race doesn't determine your iq your parentage does.

In theory you could create a cosmopolitan city in Africa all with IQs of 110 and above. Over time their IQs would regress slightly to the african mean, but we have reason to think that rise in IQ levels will be mostly long lasting.

This may have been exactly what occurred in white/east asian populations. Over centuries of migration urban centers were full of high IQ whites while their simpler cousins were in a disappearing country side.

It might be exactly because of slavery etc that black americans were late in the game for developing educated urban populations.

We don't know how quickly average IQ scores can climb. It could be that in 2-3 generations of marriages you have closed the gap or it might take 10,000 years, we have no idea.

Originally Posted by casper

Out here the university or collage does not even know your skin colour or ethnic background.

Let's keep it that way for fucks sake, I'll turn in my grave when I see asian quotas being introduced.

Originally Posted by casper

Where do we use IQ or SAT in Canada? Do we use it any other CANZUK nation?

As for the US, they have and continue to have a problem with creating the same type of opportunities in poorer communities on the education front.

The simple thing in the US is to embrace their poorer white and black communities and ignore skin color altogether.

Just look at the superbowl. Before the take a knee —, the whole thing was relatively color blind.

America has a tradition of embracing simpler people. The classism of Europe/England isn't so entrenched.

If you think it was an accident that Trump was playing up his appeal to the simple you haven't been paying attention.

[biguc]

Originally Posted by casper

On the military front. We don't have NATO. The focus of NATO is to protect Europe from Russia. A noble cause but fairly low on the Canadian priority list. That is evident from where Canadian Forces have been deployed overseas over the past 20 years. With the exception of Yugoslavia and Ukraine the Canadian military has not had much of an active role there. We have been far more involved in the Middle East and Africa. We have even been involved in helping the Kurds defend themselves from others like Turkey (NATO)?

Free trade is good, but a system similar to NAFTA with more mobility provisions would be good.

As someone living in Vancouver, I should point out that Canada is a pacific rim nation. NATO is useless and has little interest in being involved in this part of the world.

The point of NATO is right in its name: North Atlantic Treaty Organization. Europe and Turkey haul a lot of weight keeping Russia hemmed into the Baltic and Black Seas and, therefore, out of the North Atlantic. Canada isn't just a pacific rim country; it's also a North Atlantic country. This whole country doesn't revolve around you.

You obviously aren't interested in having a good-faith discussion on this, so I'm sure wasting my time, but have you ever thought of the downsides of CANZUK?

Originally Posted by Luisito

YOU might not wanit it or see the benefits of it, but many Canadians do.

See, it's easy to see that it has benefits. The thing is, nothing is free.

You want free movement of people?

That means Canada surrenders its immigration policy to the whims of the Australians. People who, believe it or not, are kind of (super majorly) — about immigration.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/a...u-australias-dumping-ground-for-refugees

You want free trade?

We have trade deals. They took a lot of work, and might not be consistent with whatever you want from CANZUK. Canada already has strong financial and resource sectors, so I don't see what we gain from free trade with the UK on the former front, or Australia on the latter. They're pretty small markets too. Are you willing to undermine NAFTA or CETA, trade agreements with hundreds of millions of people, to trade with 80 million?

Even if we all agree that free trade is good, at this point it's never as easy as throwing open our borders. If I remember right, a big sticking point for the Americans with TPP was IP--they wanted to saddle everyone else with their interminable IP laws. Other countries weren't interested--getting free trade with the Americans wasn't worth giving up freedom within our own markets.

On a general level, we can be utopians and say, borders violate human rights, we shouldn't have borders, and we wouldn't be wrong. But it's unreasonable to expect that we can get rid of border right now for as many reasons as there are borders. One day I hope we won't have them. I don't expect that day to come within this century.

You guys also really aren't appreciating what Canada's internal unity is like. Canada dealt with Quebec separatism with aplomb--there are many countries on this earth with more minor divisions between their people, who would love the unity Canada's attained. Look at Spain, or one of the countries you're hoping to gang up with, The UK.

You've given no thought to what joining an eerie cabal of Anglo countries says about Canada. It says, Canada is an Anglo country, like the others. Canada is not just an Anglo country. Your attitudes towards kicking the separatism hornet's nest are cavalier, at best.

Speaking of the UK dissolving, that's happening. Good luck with making a union with a country that probably won't make it out of the '20s intact.

I've already brought up the problems with the UK's and Australia's incompatible colonial legacies, but you've all ignored them already, just like everything else that might upset your fantasy.

And that's all this comes down to, really. If you want to fantasize about retiring in Australia, by all means, do so. Just don't expect the entire country to dump whatever else they're doing and jump behind making your fantasy a reality.