Winnipeg | Downtown | The Forks Market | Railside at The Forks

[OTA in Winnipeg]

^Yes. Downtown needs WAY more people. Perhaps the WFH trend will bring more conversions to residential.

[peg]

I agree. I think focusing on residential growth downtown is way more sustainable. The more people you add to an area, there is more demand for further services.

As areas grow, new retail can be added creatively.

I think downtown is moving in the right direction with the recent developments. However, we need to remember that these things don't change fast... like turning a big ship.

That's my take...

[Wigglez]

Originally Posted by CoryB

Let's see if you bother to read this time, as I covered above, the railside area of The Forks is a desolate place and slapping up some condos there is exactly the sort of desperate project that has repeatedly failed in other parts of downtown Winnipeg. Considering us citizens currently own this large, undeveloped space on the edge of downtown we really deserve better than for it to be sold to the highest bidder for some cookie cutter residential condos and we should be raising our voice to demand better. If we don't we might as well let the condo developers that want in Assinboine Park take over that space too.

This may be the most laughable thing I've read on this forum honestly... You're not serious right? You're able to understand the difference between putting a convention center in a sea of parking lots and putting condos in the Forks right? The Forks is almost complete... the only part of the Forks that isn't complete is where this development will go....... This development doesn't exist to spur other development in the Forks, it exists as a RESULT of previous development at the Forks.

I was going to give a full response but I really can't get past that... You're joking right?

Unfortunately I do feel compelled to repeat myself again... regarding my initial post... Let's just highlight the key point from the sentences you keep splitting up and appear to be actively choosing to not understand:

If you hear "condo building" and the image that comes to your mind is a building that you'll never interact with.

Yes the CONDO portion of CentrePoint DID remove useful buildings and DOES NOT have any actual ground level interaction. Which, of course, is why I said I understand peoples reluctance to allow CONDO buildings in the Forks when our previous examples haven't been great. Hydro Place....... has a distinct lack of CONDOS in it...... While were naming random unassociated buildings, I'm also disappointed by the lack of affordable CONDOS in Bell MTS Place....

You need to take a step back and drop the rage buddy... It's influencing you a bit too much. I'm not sure you're aware of what your even arguing at this point.

[blueandgoldguy]

Assuming the two large parking lots at the Forks were filled with 5 - 7 story condos, how many people could be living at the Forks? 2 thousand? 3 thousand? 5 thousand?

[Hecate]

It’s interesting seeing everyone dismiss each and every valid argument CoryB has listed. Honestly look around you. When waterfront drive was touted. It was to revitalize the exchange. Well, we’ve seen what was once a nightclub district basically disappear. Portage place was to bring life back to portage avenue with street front retail. Look how that went. Same in st. Boniface. How many new rental units have been added in Osborne village, yet it seems like it’s not what it once was.

Now we’re “connecting” the broken link that will somehow join the forks with the rest of downtown, and the exchange, somehow magically creating a car free walkers paradise. Lol.
If the forks wanted better connectivity to the rest of downtown, They’d be advocating for bringing back street cars. That actually would connect Osborne with the forks and the exchange.

The forks should be the place people living downtown and all over the city, go for entertainment, recreation, dining, and socializing. There should be live entertainment every night in the summer. Quebec can do it, why can’t we? Keep residential as far away as possible. Plant trees, build a soccer pitch and a baseball diamond, let the forks rent it out for tournaments every weekend and build little spaces for food trucks and street vendors. The forks should also have an exhibition hall for craft shows, farmers markets, and other touring events. Build little alcoves along the river so people can have campfires by the water and proper picnics. Have water stations around the grounds. And a fish cleaning area on the point. The forks will always attract people, it doesn’t need to start sucking the life out of the city’s other developing urban neighbourhoods.

Id rather a casino go up there than condos. It’d do more for the site.

[WinCitySparky]

Personally I’d like at least one strip club.

[Wigglez]

Originally Posted by Hecate

It’s interesting seeing everyone dismiss each and every valid argument CoryB has listed. Honestly look around you. When waterfront drive was touted. It was to revitalize the exchange. Well, we’ve seen what was once a nightclub district basically disappear. Portage place was to bring life back to portage avenue with street front retail. Look how that went. Same in st. Boniface. How many new rental units have been added in Osborne village, yet it seems like it’s not what it once was.

Now we’re “connecting” the broken link that will somehow join the forks with the rest of downtown, and the exchange, somehow magically creating a car free walkers paradise. Lol.
If the forks wanted better connectivity to the rest of downtown, They’d be advocating for bringing back street cars. That actually would connect Osborne with the forks and the exchange.

The forks should be the place people living downtown and all over the city, go for entertainment, recreation, dining, and socializing. There should be live entertainment every night in the summer. Quebec can do it, why can’t we? Keep residential as far away as possible. Plant trees, build a soccer pitch and a baseball diamond, let the forks rent it out for tournaments every weekend and build little spaces for food trucks and street vendors. The forks should also have an exhibition hall for craft shows, farmers markets, and other touring events. Build little alcoves along the river so people can have campfires by the water and proper picnics. Have water stations around the grounds. And a fish cleaning area on the point. The forks will always attract people, it doesn’t need to start sucking the life out of the city’s other developing urban neighbourhoods.

Id rather a casino go up there than condos. It’d do more for the site.

It's very easy to dismiss someone who's not arguing for anything, only against. And who's responses seem to be fueled more by anger than an interest to discuss. You seem reasonable however! So lets talk!!

You mentioned something I see a fair bit when someone argues against residential in the Forks - keep it as a public space for people living downtown. However, you mentioned the exact reason why this wont work in your post

Now we’re “connecting” the broken link that will somehow join the forks with the rest of downtown, and the exchange, somehow magically creating a car free walkers paradise. Lol.

This very much won't create a car free paradise, and that's part of the problem. Downtown Winnipeg is MASSIVE for its population size, walking to/from distant locations in the downtown area is somewhat difficult at times, though not impossible.

And that's the very reason getting residential in the area is important, random disconnected areas serving specific purposes doesn't work. There's no one that lives around there to need more random park space. Creating a park for families to hang out in, that has no families in the area to use it, is a classic Winnipeg mistake. that would itself be similar to the megaprojects you've described that failed - "build thing to get people to come here". The difference with this project is this is designed to get people to BE there not GO there. And there's plenty of fields for them to frolic in at the Forks as is.

And why would the City of Winnipeg need 2 large drive-to destination parks? Assiniboine park is huge, it has soccer fields, baseball diamonds, fields for families. Creating a new drive to park in a different location lowers the value of both and creates nothing new for the city. Because, if we just turn those lots into random fields at the Forks right now, thats all it will end up being - a drive to park. Because there aren't families in walking distance of there to support it on its own as a "local" park.

I'll ignore the casino remark but if you wanna talk about it we can

[OTA in Winnipeg]

Originally Posted by peg

... like turning a big ship.

An apt metaphor.

[Wigglez]

There's a lot of talk going around about failed mega projects in the past and residential at the Forks is being compared to this a fair bit. While I disagree that it's a mega project in any way, especially one designed to desperately turn around a portion of Downtown Winnipeg (Portage Place, Convention Centre, Concert Hall to name a few), there is 1 comparison I'd like to make since mega projects is the thing to compare to right now:

Bell MTS Place.

If we take Bell MTS Place as an example. This was built on the corpse of the Eatons building when Downtown Winnipeg was arguably at it's lowest point. Nothing was going on, the area was struggling, Portage Place was already a failure.

Fast-forward to today. True North Square (2 new buildings), Sutton Place (IN THEORY 2 new buildings) Wawa HQ, Hydro (apparently chose the location, in part, because of the proximity to the arena rather than Portage and Main), CentrePoint/Glasshouse. And I wonder if anyone would be talking about redoing Portage Place if none of that had happened, so I'd argue you can add that to the Arenas success list.

Now, I want to make 1 thing clear here. Condo's at the Forks isn't Bell MTS Place, it's True North Square... It's not something being put in place to spur development, it exist because of PREVIOUS development. These condo's aren't a desperate attempt to rebuild a part of downtown, its the addition to a success story. Comparing it to Portage Place is not accurate.

[buzzg]

Good points Wigglez.

--

According to the BIZ, the Exchange has about 2,700 residents. And that's probably the most thriving area of downtown, and the second most vibrant mixed use neighbourhood in Winnipeg - and it has so much more to go.

But think about what adding 2,000+ residents to The Forks would do if there's retail at ground level in all these buildings. It's a smaller area, and one that's already packed with people year round, into the evening – without a single resident and with only 50% of the land being uses other than surface parking. Residential at The Forks will be monumental. I get the weariness of condos – but apartments will be amazing... and I think snapped up instantly.

My god the ridiculously overpriced black box on stilts that is the Pump House hit capacity in like a month – and it has 2BR units for $2650/month.

[Hecate]

Uggg why does this page time out so quickly... it’s hard typing with thumbs. But as for the no families live downtown so why would the forks need to offer family things... that’s just a facepalm. Might as well get rid of the children’s museum and the MTYP, and never host the children’s festival again. Families have to drive there, can’t have that. Do they really need to offer skating? People can do that elsewhere. CONDOS CONDOS CONDOS!!! Lol.

You want to talk about the MTS centre. Alright let’s compare the development around the MTS centre with those around arenas in other cities. Edmonton got a new tallest across the street from its arena. We got a shitty bait n’ switch parkade and a browns social house. Lol. As for true North square... 40 million was it in government money? Plus tax breaks left right and centre. Not exactly a success story. It couldn’t keep the bay alive could it? Didn’t do anything for adding retail and dining or entertainment to portage place. The PP redevelopment your touting rests entirely on receiving government kickbacks and converting a downtown mall to government offices. how exciting for our SHED district. Lol.

Residential at the forks will not be monumental, it will be detrimental. Accompanied with the loss of parking it could very well cause hard times for the area. The number one reason for the forks success is it’s accessibility. Take away that and it will slowly die. 2000 people aren’t enough to keep a hundred specialty shops and restaurants open 365 days a year.

[GreyGarden]

Originally Posted by Hecate

Residential at the forks will not be monumental, it will be detrimental. Accompanied with the loss of parking it could very well cause hard times for the area. The number one reason for the forks success is it’s accessibility. Take away that and it will slowly die. 2000 people aren’t enough to keep a hundred specialty shops and restaurants open 365 days a year.

I don't understand, why would the Forks be pushing for something that will lead to it's demise? The Forks is busier and more profitable then ever (at least pre-covid). I'd say current management isn't clueless to market trends.

[pspeid]

I think we need to remember that, from Day 1, The Forks has had a mandate to become financially self-sufficient. Whether the current rail-side land became office space or residential space, a big chunk of The Forks inevitably needed to produce income. I believe it also has a mandate to build things appropriate to the history and traditions of the area (yes, I know, this has been broadly interpreted, but it tends to restrict the area from becoming a Wisconsin Dells-ish amusement mall). Green space is beautiful, but by itself it doesn't raise much (if any) income.

I get the point about reducing accessibility by taking away some of the surface parking, but I think any development on those lots would do the same thing, even if they were simply converted to green space. Personally I doubt people will be turned off going to The Forks because they have to walk/drive/cycle past some residential blocks, any more than they are turned off by having to walk/drive/cycle past parking lots.

Personally I think having more people present on the site 24-7 will enhance the attractiveness of the area, and possibly even encourage spill-over developments on Main Street.

[GarryEllice]

Originally Posted by Hecate

Residential at the forks will not be monumental, it will be detrimental. Accompanied with the loss of parking it could very well cause hard times for the area. The number one reason for the forks success is it’s accessibility. Take away that and it will slowly die. 2000 people aren’t enough to keep a hundred specialty shops and restaurants open 365 days a year.

LOL, so it boils down to the classic Winnipeg "development is bad because it might take away my parking."

Plus the other classic Winnipeg attitude that "green space" is automatically the best use of any piece of land. There's already a ton of green space at the Forks, plus that huge triangle of green space along the river between Shaw Park and the human rights museum. What the area needs is NOT more empty space.

An underused park can actually be a dangerous blight on an urban area -- Jane Jacobs had great insights on this.

[peg]

Originally Posted by GarryEllice

LOL, so it boils down to the classic Winnipeg "development is bad because it might take away my parking."

Plus the other classic Winnipeg attitude that "green space" is automatically the best use of any piece of land. There's already a ton of green space at the Forks, plus that huge triangle of green space along the river between Shaw Park and the human rights museum. What the area needs is NOT more empty space.

An underused park can actually be a dangerous blight on an urban area -- Jane Jacobs had great insights on this.

Bringing out the Jane Jacobs

[Wigglez]

It's amazing how quickly his tune went from "think of the families" (that don't exist in the area) to "BUT MY PARKIIIIIIIIING"

The issue i have with the "no" crowd is they just bring up random unrelated things and attempt to connect them to topic at hand. It's just a shame, I'd love to have a real convo about this with someone that doesn't like the idea... but when you try to talk to them they just start swinging like a toddler with a red face.

No real reason to respond to either of em

If anyone wants to have a normal convo and not take it to random things like tax breaks or failing department stores Id love to talk!

P.s. I'm sorry that Bell MTS Place didn't save the Hudsons Bay Company. (theyre closing stores nation wide and laying off hundreds of employees, but sure... lets go with the arena failed them)

[CoryB]

Originally Posted by Wigglez

It's very easy to dismiss someone who's not arguing for anything, only against. And who's responses seem to be fueled more by anger than an interest to discuss. You seem reasonable however! So lets talk!!

Said it from the start, I do not have answers for The Forks but know that condos is the wrong answer. It is no different than that half baked CanAlta hotel and "water park" that was pitched for the same site. Just because you can see how "bad" an idea is doesn't necessarily mean you have a good one to replace it with. And you are mistaking passion for wanting better for my city that a ill-conceived, half-baked, get-rich-quick scheme for one of the city's premium areas as "rage". There are some many so-called "advocates" for downtown on this forum it is shocking to see them sit ideally by and let this proposal burn the biggest opportunity that will ever exist to truly think big and make something special in downtown just to build so condos and get a quick paycheck.

Originally Posted by Hecate

If the forks wanted better connectivity to the rest of downtown, They’d be advocating for bringing back street cars. That actually would connect Osborne with the forks and the exchange.

Now there is an idea that actually makes sense for improving The Forks. It could also bookend the river walk/skating trail with stops at both The Forks end and the Osborne end.

Originally Posted by pspeid

I think we need to remember that, from Day 1, The Forks has had a mandate to become financially self-sufficient. Whether the current rail-side land became office space or residential space, a big chunk of The Forks inevitably needed to produce income. I believe it also has a mandate to build things appropriate to the history and traditions of the area (yes, I know, this has been broadly interpreted, but it tends to restrict the area from becoming a Wisconsin Dells-ish amusement mall). Green space is beautiful, but by itself it doesn't raise much (if any) income.

That is yet another reason the condos are a bad idea for The Forks. Sure, the sale of limited land at The Forks to the highest bidder gets them an immediate cash injection against their bottom line but it will be a one-time thing. If the goal is to be financially self-sufficient maintaining the gravel surface lots is a better long term strategy as it continues to generate revenue on a reoccurring basis v a one-time.

And while green space doesn't necessarily raise much money there are strategies that can get it to bring in money, such as renting out picnic shelters, etc. Heck the idea of creating an outdoor food hall with food trucks (paying rent) and tables, green space, etc is a great way of building off what is already happening both at The Forks and in the broader Winnipeg community without permanently cashing out on the space.

We need more people thinking big and putting out ideas to make The Forks truly a special place. Who would have honestly predicted how the warming huts concept would evolve and grow over the years when it was first presented.

If "Railside" is so important to the area then do it but as "Railside West" replacing the parking lots and Earl's over a similar stretch on the west side of the tracks (aka along Main St). Strike a deal with Earl's to either buy them out or have them be a ground level tenant in the new buildings. It bring the same people to live in the area but leaves The Forks for a big game-changing idea.

As I have said before, condos is a bad idea and is giving up on the space. As citizens on the city and indirectly owners of the land we should collectively be demanding better. To not do that we might as well take this clearly intended joke of an idea and use it to replace The Forks Market.

Originally Posted by Hecate

Id rather a casino go up there than condos. It’d do more for the site.

[GreyGarden]

Originally Posted by CoryB

There are some many so-called "advocates" for downtown on this forum it is shocking to see them sit ideally by and let this proposal burn the biggest opportunity that will ever exist to truly think big and make something special in downtown just to build so condos and get a quick paycheck.

I feel like you're discussing this site as if it is the railyards in downtown Toronto and this is the Raildeck park debate. If the Forks was surrounded by condos and thousands of people living in them with very little green space, then yes, I can see some strength to the argument. It's not like developers are all clamoring to cash in on development in downtown Winnipeg and its not like there are thousands of people already living there.

The Forks has a significant "green space" and "cultural" element to it. Diversifying it will only make it stronger and it will inject people into the space 24/7. And it will take care of three enormous parking lots. If we build more parks and museums and community gathering spaces, the space will be dead after 9pm (furthermore, I doubt any level of government has the stomach to spend what would be necessary to do it properly). As it is, there are not enough people living in the area to use all of that space and those amenities. As I've said in previous spots, I've never had to climb over people to get a spot in the grass at the Forks (which I've had to do in parks in inner city Toronto). If that was the experience and the area was underserved in parks, then I might support more park and "public" space, as I do in Toronto.

[Hecate]

Yes a dead park can be detrimental... but the forks will never be a dead park. Take away it’s accessible nature, add in some condos, and it just might. Jane Jacobs isnt the beginning and end of everything. There are many people who want to retire her outdated ideologies. Would you have argued against the renewal of Central Park... it was dead and a drug dealers hangout... look at it now? Or am I wrong.

As far as I know the bay is laying off 600 staff and closing three stores... Edmonton Winnipeg and Montréal... maybe if the MTS centre, true North square, glass house and all the other residential that’s gone up in the area over the last five years, actually had an impact, they’d be closing st vital, instead. But there is no hope for the future at all for the store even with the proposed redevelopment of portage place.. what does that tell you?? Maybe all this government subsidized crap isn’t really helping. Shit they can’t even keep a staples Downtown at a mall that is connected to the arena and the the office towers. Imagine that, a mall with heated underground parking directly across the street from the MTS centre, can’t lure new retail or restaurants? How is that even fucking possible???

The exchange used to be cool, we used to go barhopping there, there were bars all over with patios and music... look at it now. It’s too loud. Lol. Why do you want these people living at the forks. Actually maybe they’ll all vacate the exchange so they can have fancy new builds and the land values will drop in the exchange allowing more students and artists back in the area... you know the people that make communities and neighbourhoods exciting to begin with.

[trueviking]

this is the weirdest debate.

" the railside area of The Forks is a desolate place and slapping up some condos there is exactly the sort of desperate project that has repeatedly failed in other parts of downtown Winnipeg."

How about if we changed it to this:

The Railside area of the forks is a desolate place because it is the largest downtown parking lot in Western Canada, and building homes for people to live in, will create a neighbourhood out of an area that is currently a place to store cars for a few hours a day. This type of development will establish a resident population that will activate the overall site beyond tourist hours and provide an adjacent market for retail businesses and the extensive, but currently underused green space in the area.

I think you should change the word 'condo' to 'home' because you appear to think the former is some kind of pejorative.

Expanding the already extensive and underused green space at and around the forks is a totally dumb idea. Take a look at Central Park in New York. It is successful because it is surrounded by millions of people. I want people to kick soccer balls at the forks too, but nobody is going to drive there from st. vital to do it. There needs to be people living there. There's lots of room to kick a soccer ball today....why doesn't anyone do it? Building homes at the forks was an important part of its mandate from the first day it was established. It has always been part of the masterplan.

These other comparisons are just bizarre. A back lane of a shopping mall built in the 1980's failed so we shouldn't build homes downtown? The parkade at Centrepoint has no retail units, so we shouldn't create a neighbourhood at the forks? (Centrepoint itself has added a hotel, a large office population and two large restaurants)

Waterfront Drive is a perfect example actually. Do you remember what the exchange district was before waterfront drive? Empty buildings, a few antique dealers and the Fyxx. It is now home to thousands of people and it continues to grow. Waterfront was the catalyst for that. Railside is essentially another version of that very successful idea.

There is no argument that storefront retail in downtown winnipeg lacks compared to other cities. This is because of a low population and streets filled with parking lots that make them unwalkable. These are the two things railside is attempting to improve. More people living downtown is the solution to all of its problems. There will some day be a tipping point reached that will make storefront business work, like it has everywhere else in the world. That doesn't come before the people. The people come first. This is why every chance we get we should support building more homes for people downtown.....everywhere in the city, actually.

The forks has almost 5 million visitors a year. It is not the same as a back lane behind a mall or a plaza beside a 1970's apartment tower. It is a completely different opportunity. It is also a place where many people would consider living who would never think about living downtown.

'slapping up condo's' is not a desperate attempt at anything...it is precisely what is best for that site....providing places for people to live is a good thing....the last thing we need there is a park or another megaproject or whatever it is you think is a viable alternative to a neighbourhood.