Third Harbour Crossing

[Saul Goode]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

One thing it could do is locate the SAR with the Coast Guard more here. Use Shearwater as the main airport/heliport in this area.

What would that achieve from an operational perspective?

Basing fixed- and rotary-winged SAR assets at Greenwood works well enough as it is. There's no particular advantage to having them at Shearwater, unless your goal is simply to close Greenwood to save money.

[Good Baklava]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

To southern Dartmouth and further south? Not much.

But is that where most of the growth is focused? Is southern Dartmouth really limited by the bridges? If you want to live in Cole Harbour and commute downtown, or live in Timberlea and commute to Burnside, that's an individual choice where you accept a longer commute. Those I know who work in Burnside live in Dartmouth, those I know who work downtown mostly live on the peninsula, Clayton Park, Bedford... you get the point.

[Saul Goode]

Originally Posted by Good Baklava

Those I know who work in Burnside live in Dartmouth, those I know who work downtown mostly live on the peninsula, Clayton Park, Bedford... you get the point.

Interesting observation, but not quite the same as my own. I worked in downtown Halifax for decades and lived in Dartmouth all along. I can say from personal experience that thousands of others did the same, and still do. The ferry makes that a very attractive proposition.

Now I work in Burnside and most of the folks in my office (of about 150+) definitely do not live in Dartmouth. A lot commute from Halifax suburbs, as far as Tantallon to the south/west, and from the Eastern Shore, the East Hants Corridor and as far as Truro.

[Good Baklava]

Originally Posted by Saul Goode

Interesting observation, but not quite the same as my own. I worked in downtown Halifax for decades and lived in Dartmouth all along. I can say from personal experience that thousands of others did the same, and still do. The ferry makes that a very attractive proposition.

Now I work in Burnside and most of the folks in my office (of about 150+) definitely do not live in Dartmouth. A lot commute from Halifax suburbs, as far as Tantallon to the south/west, and from the Eastern Shore, the East Hants Corridor and as far as Truro.

Another valid point is that while one person may work close to where they live, the spouse sometimes doesn’t. Sometimes you change jobs and your once ideal location is far from work. It’s important to note that the people I’m referring to only made that move after a decade of 30-45 min commutes, so it took some time and congestion to push them towards greener pastures.

I think the ferry makes working downtown very easy for those living in DT Dartmouth. Today’s question would revolve around whether it’s affordable to live near the ferry.

[Dartguard]

Originally Posted by Saul Goode

What would that achieve from an operational perspective?

Basing fixed- and rotary-winged SAR assets at Greenwood works well enough as it is. There's no particular advantage to having them at Shearwater, unless your goal is simply to close Greenwood to save money.

Greenwood is the main RCAF base in N.S. primarily because of the better weather in the Valley. Acadia did a study a few years ago that showed Wolfville had on average 42 more sunny days than the Halifax region. That better weather makes a difference in Helicopter operations and with the C-130 Hercules capabilities it really doesn't matter where they take off from. The C-295's that are replacing the Herc's …. we will see. Its the wrong aircraft but this forum is about Bridges.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Saul Goode

What would that achieve from an operational perspective?

Basing fixed- and rotary-winged SAR assets at Greenwood works well enough as it is. There's no particular advantage to having them at Shearwater, unless your goal is simply to close Greenwood to save money.

I guess it depends on where most of their calls have been from. Being in Shearwater, but having more cals from the Bay of Fundy would be a disservice, but if most of the calls are from the Atlantic side, it makes sense to move more assets. Or, they could use if as the maintenance facility. So, when planes or helicopters need major work, they are brought to Shearwater.

Originally Posted by Good Baklava

But is that where most of the growth is focused? Is southern Dartmouth really limited by the bridges? If you want to live in Cole Harbour and commute downtown, or live in Timberlea and commute to Burnside, that's an individual choice where you accept a longer commute. Those I know who work in Burnside live in Dartmouth, those I know who work downtown mostly live on the peninsula, Clayton Park, Bedford... you get the point.

I get the point. However, I'd be willing to bet if tomorrow an announcement was made that the tunnels would begin construction this year, subdivisions planned for the southern area would ramp up, and the price would also go up. And, by the time the tunnels open, those subdivisions would be the go to neighbourhoods.

Originally Posted by Good Baklava

Another valid point is that while one person may work close to where they live, the spouse sometimes doesn’t. Sometimes you change jobs and your once ideal location is far from work. It’s important to note that the people I’m referring to only made that move after a decade of 30-45 min commutes, so it took some time and congestion to push them towards greener pastures.

I think the ferry makes working downtown very easy for those living in DT Dartmouth. Today’s question would revolve around whether it’s affordable to live near the ferry.

The issue is that the ferry terminal isn't well suited for it. Alderney Landing is great, but Woodside is not walkable, or built for being walkable. Ideally, most people would walk or take transit to the ferry and then do the same to go to work/home. Woodside is fairly industrial.

Originally Posted by Dartguard

Greenwood is the main RCAF base in N.S. primarily because of the better weather in the Valley. Acadia did a study a few years ago that showed Wolfville had on average 42 more sunny days than the Halifax region. That better weather makes a difference in Helicopter operations and with the C-130 Hercules capabilities it really doesn't matter where they take off from. The C-295's that are replacing the Herc's …. we will see. Its the wrong aircraft but this forum is about Bridges.

So, really, keeping Greenwood is most likely.

[Saul Goode]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

I guess it depends on where most of their calls have been from. Being in Shearwater, but having more calls from the Bay of Fundy would be a disservice, but if most of the calls are from the Atlantic side, it makes sense to move more assets. Or, they could use if as the maintenance facility. So, when planes or helicopters need major work, they are brought to Shearwater.

I think you may be under a misapprehension about what SAR area Greenwood is responsible for. It's not a local operation covering just mishaps in NS waters. The Joint Rescue Coordination Center in Halifax (which includes the Greenwood assets) has to cover almost 2 million square miles: all of the Atlantic west of 30°W, north of 42°N and south of 70°N. In other words, all of NS, PE, NB, NL, the eastern half of QC and the southern half of Baffin Island, plus all of the ocean within those bounds.

And that's only the SAR mission. Greenwood is also home to most of Canada's CP-140 Aurora long-range maritime patrol aircraft.

[Colin May]

Greenwood doesn't have foggy days. Shearwater has foggy days. Greenwood is an excellent central location for the area it serves.

[Colin May]

The $1 billion estimate is from circa 5 years ago. Not hard to assume a new estimate would be in the vicinity of $2 billion.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Colin May

The $1 billion estimate is from circa 5 years ago. Not hard to assume a new estimate would be in the vicinity of $2 billion.

How much for a twin tunnel for 3 lanes, including an HOV/transit lane?

[IanWatson]

A replacement or refurbishment of the MacKay Bridge will be needed whether or not a third crossing is built. This is not a thing where you can ignore the MacKay in favour of a third crossing. As much as we call it the "New Bridge", it's not much newer than the Macdonald was before it was rebuilt. And yes, as Keith mentioned the Macdonald is basically a brand new bridge since the Big Lift.

We also have to remember that the planning and construction process for a new bridge can be measured in decades, so by the time they actually get around to building a new MacKay the existing one will be significantly older.

I went to a presentation by one of the Big Life engineers a few years back and he spent a bit of time on the MacKay. The preference is to build a new bridge next to the existing one and then tear down the existing one. It actually ends up being cheaper than using any of the existing infrastructure because you don't have all the logistical challenges that come with something like the Big Lift, where you have to work around the need to keep the bridge operating. However, they weren't yet sure if they had room to build a fully new bridge, so a Big Lift for the MacKay was still on the table.

I don't see it as a waste at all to add bike and pedestrian lanes to the new build. If it's designed in from the start it will be an absolutely negligible cost to the project. I doubt the pedestrian paths will be used all that much, but bike paths certainly could be. With Shannon Park being built up there will be significant density right at the end of the bridge. Plus Burnside is not far away and has a whole network of bike paths now.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Saul Goode

Interesting observation, but not quite the same as my own. I worked in downtown Halifax for decades and lived in Dartmouth all along. I can say from personal experience that thousands of others did the same, and still do. The ferry makes that a very attractive proposition.

Now I work in Burnside and most of the folks in my office (of about 150+) definitely do not live in Dartmouth. A lot commute from Halifax suburbs, as far as Tantallon to the south/west, and from the Eastern Shore, the East Hants Corridor and as far as Truro.

That was my observation when working in Burnside as well. People lived where they wanted to live, and got a job where one was available. If it happened to be in Burnside, then they commuted to Burnside.

In over 25 years, there was only one person who turned down a job because he didn't want to commute from Halifax to Burnside (which is against the major flow of traffic, but still busy). There were probably more factors at play, but he said that was the tipping point as his current job was in Halifax so his commute was easy.

[Citizen_Bane]

If space is (too) tight for building a new replacement bridge alongside the McKay then would it not seem logical that now is the time to acquire some of the immediately adjacent Shannon Park land? Could there be a better time than now? And if ever we are to have an LRT system then wouldn't the narrowest part of the harbour be the most logical place to bridge the harbour? Land will be needed for an LRT bridge and Shannon Park is not yet developed. Hopefully the likelihood a cycle lane on the McKay is being considered in the Windsor street exchange re-vamp.

[Saul Goode]

Originally Posted by Good Baklava

I think the ferry makes working downtown very easy for those living in DT Dartmouth. Today’s question would revolve around whether it’s affordable to live near the ferry.

True enough. I'm fortunate to live within easy walking distance of the ferry terminal, but property values in the area have skyrocketed to previously-unimaginable levels. Great for me but very tough on first-time homebuyers.

Prices in and surrounding downtown Dartmouth likely won't remain at the current stratospheric levels forever, but given the level of development in downtown Dartmouth, I don't think they're going to drop drastically.

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

That was my observation when working in Burnside as well. People lived where they wanted to live, and got a job where one was available. If it happened to be in Burnside, then they commuted to Burnside.

In over 25 years, there was only one person who turned down a job because he didn't want to commute from Halifax to Burnside (which is against the major flow of traffic, but still busy). There were probably more factors at play, but he said that was the tipping point as his current job was in Halifax so his commute was easy.

During my career my first job was in Burnside when I was living in Halifax. The commute then was easy because it was indeed against the bulk of the rush-hour traffic. However over the last 10-15 years the equation has changed and while perhaps the two flows are not equal, traffic at rush hour is heavy in either direction.

[Good Baklava]

Originally Posted by IanWatson

A replacement or refurbishment of the MacKay Bridge will be needed whether or not a third crossing is built. This is not a thing where you can ignore the MacKay in favour of a third crossing. As much as we call it the "New Bridge", it's not much newer than the Macdonald was before it was rebuilt. And yes, as Keith mentioned the Macdonald is basically a brand new bridge since the Big Lift.

I wonder if a cable-stayed bridge will take its place, they seem to be all the rage these days.

[Summerville]

Originally Posted by Good Baklava

I wonder if a cable-stayed bridge will take its place, they seem to be all the rage these days.

That's what they are saying...

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Citizen_Bane

If space is (too) tight for building a new replacement bridge alongside the McKay then would it not seem logical that now is the time to acquire some of the immediately adjacent Shannon Park land? Could there be a better time than now? And if ever we are to have an LRT system then wouldn't the narrowest part of the harbour be the most logical place to bridge the harbour? Land will be needed for an LRT bridge and Shannon Park is not yet developed. Hopefully the likelihood a cycle lane on the McKay is being considered in the Windsor street exchange re-vamp.

I'm not sure crossing at the narrowest point in the harbour would have any benefit as there would still be a height requirement for large ships to be able to pass under the bridge. So in this case you would still have to build the approaches back from the water and this would be right in the middle of a residential area on the Halifax side, which aside from being politically difficult as it would displace housing, would also be very expensive.

I'm actually curious where they would build the redundant span as it would likely interfere with residential to the south of the existing span, or the Africville park to the north side (which would be very difficult politically, especially in this age of heightened awareness).

[Good Baklava]

Originally Posted by Summerville

That's what they are saying...

Thanks! I've been in the dark...

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

During my career my first job was in Burnside when I was living in Halifax. The commute then was easy because it was indeed against the bulk of the rush-hour traffic. However over the last 10-15 years the equation has changed and while perhaps the two flows are not equal, traffic at rush hour is heavy in either direction.

I see, it's been over 20 years since I made that specific commute... I hadn't realized that it changed so drastically.

Actually the individual I had interviewed seemed more concerned with the added cost of the bridge tolls, curiously, than the commute time. Which made me believe there was more to it than just the commute. So in the end I'm sure it worked out the best for both parties...